nuclear weapons?
Like a child showing off to another, 'My toy is better than yours'
right now it is no horse run race with the way Singapore is spending .
Mere purchasing of the latest or most modern weaponry does not automatically translate to a significant increase in capabilities.
Indonesia's purchase of a very small number of SU30s is probably motivated by other factors. Also, with such a vast land area and coast line to police , the 22 helis , 20 amphi tanks and 2 subs do not constitute a major threat to anyone. Anyway , they are no external threats to Indonesia. Any threats are probably internal anyway.
Malaysia is also has large area & coastline to police. Seriously, their military capabilities are also considered quite modest.
However, when one considers Singapore's range, quality & quantity of weaponry it raises concerns externally about why we need such immense capabilties squeezed into small a small country. But being a S'porean & having served NS, I rather be overarmed & overprepared than underarmed and ill prepared. As history shows repeatly, anything & everything can change overnight. Better be armed to the teeth & more importantly be ready to defend ourselves at any moment rather than hope that someone chooses not to pick a fight . We can be certain that it will be suicidal to mess around with the tiny red dot.
i think the outside political pundit would like to call it arm race. Personally i see it more like a 30 years of needed upgrade to relevant technology. And try to adapt and intergrate up to date knowledge and skill set.
There is always a dimension of uncertainty in the region but thats day 1 that is why there is SAF.
The politics in SE. Asia remain unchange over the years. All the more the rise of China and India has pull us back to remain where we are.....SE. Asia.
No SE Asian country would go nuclear, no matter where they drop it in the region, they would very likely breathe irradiated air for the next few years
Originally posted by ahtansh:Singapore gets more F-15 fighter jets, Leopard 2A4 Main Battle Tanks and new Navy Frigates.
Indonesia gets Su-30MK2 Russian jets. Moscow also extended to Indonesia a US$1 billion (S$1.44 billion) credit scheme to finance them and other military purchases, including 22 helicopters, 20 amphibious tanks and two submarines.
Malaysia gets first Scorpene submarine, which is equipped with torpedoes, sub-surface to surface missiles and sea mines, signifying another leap in the nation’s pursuit of new technology.
While countries are facing financial difficulties, Military budget remains High. How ironic is it when we tried so hard to be friendly through ASEAN, Military exchanges but behind our backs continue to build a force to cancel out each other’s potential aggression.
Money well spent?!
western also renew their stuff,
is it a arms race?
just like neighbours with the biggest TV wins.
He who dies with the most toys wins
I don't see it as a arms race.
Don forget Thailand has their gripen coming but they still ill afford a submarine.
While philippines and vietnam can't afford anything at the moment.
not the first time that we are increase defense budget during recession.
my opinion,
singapore need to spend to adapt to new threats.
singapore need to spend more each year to maintain its inventory due to rising prices.
singapore can spend more because she CAN afford it.
simi arms race ?
Originally posted by dadeadman1337:No SE Asian country would go nuclear, no matter where they drop it in the region, they would very likely breathe irradiated air for the next few years
depends on how you look at it. if possession of a nuke can buy me peace, prosperity and security by offering a nuclear deterrent, it will be considered. no nuclear power has ever fought with a nuclear power.
but on the other hand, unless someone get nuclear warheads and the capability to send them to someone else's place, it is useless. and it will take quite a bit to build up or buy and get ready such a capability without others knowing.
and there is the possibility that if one country gets, everyone else will get (like look at Iran), if Iran successfuly gets a nuke, the rest of the sunni countries are likely to go nuclear as well. they will get together to counterbalance Iran.
but that isnt an ideal situation since that now everybody has nukes, its far more unstable because if someone uses one, the likelihood of someone else to use a nuke is higher. its increasingly destabilizing. and the margin for miscalculating and making a wrong move is higher. its like a high stakes card game. the higher u go, the more everyone looses. and nobody benefits from an increased escalation. in essence, nuclear power politics is brinkmanship at its highest level.
so, depending on how you see it, whether will the deterrence effect outweigh the higher risks involved to everyone ? in Iran's case, its clear why it has chosen nukes. In SEA. who needs that much deterrence who is attacking who ? and lest we all forget, members of ASEAN have to sign a non-amity clause. (i.e illegal to fight wars amongst each other)
http://www.gov.ph/news/default.asp?i=16991
The TAC, which was signed in February of 1976 in Bali, Indonesia, was amended by the First and Second Protocols in 1987 and 1988, respectively.
It specifically and legally binds all its ASEAN signatories to peaceful co-existence and respect for the principles of sovereignty, territorial integrity, non-interference in internal affairs and non-use of force.
The Treaty's Amity clause emphasizes increased contact and interaction among ASEAN's peoples to ensure closer understanding. Its Cooperation clauses oblige active efforts at consultation on international and regional matters with a view to policy and action coordination.
They also restrict individual signatory states from participating in activities that constitute a threat to the political and economic stability, sovereignty and territorial integrity of another signatory state.
The operationalization of the TAC, therefore, is facilitated by finding equilibrium between the definitive principles of sovereignty and non-interference, and the regulatory provisions for necessary transnational action and coordination.
people are rational and not foolish. why introduce nukes in a setting when conventional arms power is a sufficient threat. a nuke is an exponential increase in threat. and without any clear cause / reason to have a nuke. why risk destabilizing effects ?
and this thread is rather pointless. it dosent even make clear the distinction between arms procurement and capability. and/or inherently, the balance of power.
i can buy a gun. you can buy 10 guns. but if i hold that one gun to your head and put my finger to the trigger, who is more deadly ? i have more capability to shoot you than you have capability to shoot me despite you having more guns . and most importantly, where is the intent to pull the trigger ? am i going to pull the trigger ? or am i simply pulling your leg because we are good neighbours ? play-play soldier only with no intention to shoot. or is it that the gun is bought to scare away creeps like lionnoisy who disturb us from time to time, with no real intention of using it on you or me.
no assumptions, no clarity, no direction = no purpose
infite possibilities
Look at it this way. The Armed Forces in the region are in need of modernization programs. Besides the RSAF, TNI-AU and the RMAF are operating some very old aircraft that has gone through very little upgrades and reconditioning. Introduction of more 4G fighters can be said to be a natural thing.
Similarly, on land, the M113s operated by most of the countries here are also getting outdated. The introduction of Main Battle Tanks has been a process that has been long over-due much due to the popular myth of quicksand like soil in our region. Urbanization has also gone a long way to render some of the old fighting doctrines a little less valid. With introduction of newer and more urbanized landscape, new fighting capabilities are also needed.
And we take all that and put in perspective with the rest of the world. Compared to Russian, European, Western and Middle Eastern armed forces capabilities, we are just catching up. And by "we", I mean the leaders of the pack in this region, Singapore.
I may be getting carried away a little. But "catching" up with the rest of the world in terms of military capabilities in my opinion, allows SEA as a region on its own, to be more independent of "domination" by greater foreign powers. 2-3 centuries ago, South East Asian militaries were unable to stand against foreign colonization due to the gap in power and wealth between the Europeans and the existing South East Asian kingdoms. South East Asia was thus a region dominated by Europeans.
Why military budgets are high in times of financial crises. Consider this: the last two world wars began amidst periods of financial turmoil. State to state relations seem to get a lot edgier when the economy isn't doing well. States and governments are less secure, people are less happy, and sometimes end up voting strange people into power. Strange people or parties sometimes make very aggressive foreign policy adjustments in order to distract the locals to an enemy on the outside.
Naturally, in such situations, its wiser to set aside some capability to arm and prepare for any potential security challenges... Just in case.
Most men are still primal admit it or not. People in power is no exclusion or even perhaps it applies even more to people in power.
To make sober these primal minds we need weapons.
Even diplomacy can only work when you have deterrent power(read pressure).
Nations cannot hope to reach a peaceful solution only with exchanges of nicesities.
And kindness will get you nowhere. Only power speaks with primal minds.
yeah I can't imagine if N korea decided to go crazy during this bad economics times. That would certainly jolt Aisa.
Without deterrance and the stability brought by it, one can dream on about economic, social or democratic development and growth.
If you want peace, prepare for war=)
Originally posted by red_amoeba:Already we are in a way “nuclear” due to the pressence of US warships at our CNB. So, this acts a strong deterrant to the countries who might want to act funny with us.
i dont think there's a permanant naval vessel there. i believe PACCOM has an office there and at sembawang wharves.
the British built a huge naval base at singapore and completed it in 1940. the idea was for the RN to sail towards that base and help defend singapore from a potential japanese threat.
but that failed because there were no royal navy fleet avaliable as they were predominantly tied up in the atlantic and the mediterrenean.
CNB builds friends and offers an american security presence, but does not, by default, guaruntee a american security interest. America is not bound by anything to come to our aid.
Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:Most men are still primal admit it or not. People in power is no exclusion or even perhaps it applies even more to people in power.
To make sober these primal minds we need weapons.
Even diplomacy can only work when you have deterrent power(read pressure).
Nations cannot hope to reach a peaceful solution only with exchanges of nicesities.
And kindness will get you nowhere. Only power speaks with primal minds.
absolute power corrupts absolutely.
do think about that. power is important. but simulteneously, power is not everything. power alone dosent guaruntee survival, security and stability.
Did we just walk into a new begining of potential Nuke capabilities from Iran......?
BEIRUT, Lebanon - Iran announced its first successful satellite launch yesterday, a step into the space age as well as a showy demonstration of firepower amid continued concerns about the Islamic republic's nuclear program and regional ambitions.
"The technology that is used to get this satellite into orbit . . . is one that could also be used to propel long range ballistic missiles," Pentagon spokesman Geoff Morrell said in Washington.
US State Department spokesman Robert Wood called the launch "a matter of great concern" and said any attempt by Iran to improve its military capacity violates United Nations Security Council resolutions forbidding Iran to develop its missile technology.
The launch doesn't alter the region's strategic calculus. Iran has long had missiles that could reach 800 or so miles away to its regional rival, Israel. One analyst estimated that Iran could now theoretically deliver a payload of up to 1,500 pounds about 1,500 miles away, allowing it a greater range, but one that does not yet reach North America nor much of Europe
There's no arm's race.
We buy stealth frigates to shoo away fisherman from PB. (Same size on radar mah)
We buy F-15 to hang out with the USAF.
We buy Apache to escort State Flag during NDP.
We buy Leopard2 to entice young boys to sign on to Armour.
We buy Himars to give the Arty boys a hard on.
We buy submarine to track pirate boats.
No arms race lar. It's just lots of money to wayang.
MP for West Coast GRC, Ho Geok Choo, said: "Doubling GST credits is too timid. Maybe we should look at quadrupling the GST credits or slashing the GST by half to 3.5 per cent.
"In times like these, do we need to spend so much on traditional defence? FY2009 defence spending is projected to be S$11.4 billion or 26 per cent of the Budget. It is better to employ some of that money to build up economic defence."
Finally someone raised a good question on the budget!
Originally posted by ahtansh:MP for West Coast GRC, Ho Geok Choo, said: "Doubling GST credits is too timid. Maybe we should look at quadrupling the GST credits or slashing the GST by half to 3.5 per cent.
"In times like these, do we need to spend so much on traditional defence? FY2009 defence spending is projected to be S$11.4 billion or 26 per cent of the Budget. It is better to employ some of that money to build up economic defence."
Finally someone raised a good question on the budget!
building economic defence? haha, a little too late, we are under attack!