IDF A rmor and tanks
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I am doing a post abour Singapore Israel relations on the military
I am looking for pic of amx 13 sold by Israel to Singapore
http://idf-armor.blogspot.com/
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Here a thread in the other MN forum that will interest you.
http://militarynuts.com/index.php?showtopic=85
Btw , did you register in that MN forum as totach7 over there?
If you have problem logging in, here some help:
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http://www.waronline.org/IDF/Articles/tango_magnolia.htm
Rreposting link from gary's thread for the benefit of forumners. A Russian website with rare pictures of the Israeli advisors in Singapore and the AMX-13s.
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I think not all SAF's AMX 13s were acquired from Israeli. Many more came from other sources which I believe included India.
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Mindef reported that early batches came from France, India and Switzerland. SIPRI reports ~150 from India ('73-75), ~40 from Israel ('68-69 period), ~150 from Swiss ('79-81). Bought in 1968, first import of AMX-13 was July 1969.
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Originally posted by slim10:
Mindef reported that early batches came from France, India and Switzerland. SIPRI reports ~150 from India ('73-75), ~40 from Israel ('68-69 period), ~150 from Swiss ('79-81). Bought in 1968, first import of AMX-13 was July 1969.
According to the Russian article, the 1st 2 batches in 69 period was already 72.
Next I thought that 150 from 79 period were from France.
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Just reporting what SIPRI reports. You can check out their trade register.
If I'm not wrong, vol 2 of LKY's memoirs mentioned that SG bought 72 from Israel in 1969 as IDF was upgrading their tank force at that time. That would be a better source as it came from the horse's mouth.
That would suggest that the first pics of the AMX-13 during the 1969 NDP which are available on the mindef website are probably ex-israeli (which are ultimately ex-french).
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Originally posted by Typhoon:
http://www.waronline.org/IDF/Articles/tango_magnolia.htm
Rreposting link from gary's thread for the benefit of forumners. A Russian website with rare pictures of the Israeli advisors in Singapore and the AMX-13s.
I will be great if there is transation for the Russian site. Looks interesting, depicts the history of Israeli-Singapore relations since Singapore's independence.
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Originally posted by tankee1981:
I will be great if there is transation for the Russian site. Looks interesting, depicts the history of Israeli-Singapore relations since Singapore's independence.
I have already translated using Babel Fish and posted in the above thread link to MN.
Not a great work due to some of Russian words were not translated by it, 2ndly it need a lot of reformatting, I did not bother too much as long as it could be understood.
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http://www.singapore-window.org/sw05/040818id.htm
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what about our air force being trained by taiwanese pilots ? is that ever going to come to light ?
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Here it is:
http://militarynuts.com/index.php?showtopic=533
Did some translating as well but even more tedious, done most of it except the ending summary.
Later Spidy posted some scan images from a magazine in English, which is practically summary of the Chinese article in English.
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Originally posted by gary1910:
Here it is:
http://militarynuts.com/index.php?showtopic=533
Did some translating as well but even more tedious, done most of it except the ending summary.
Later Spidy posted some scan images from a magazine in English, which is practically summary of the Chinese article in English.
ahh thank you gary !
was trying to think of where i read about it but cant remember. i was thinking more of the official recognition that the taiwanese played a role in our RSAF.
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Originally posted by sgstars:
ahh thank you gary !
was trying to think of where i read about it but cant remember. i was thinking more of the official recognition that the taiwanese played a role in our RSAF.
i was wondering If the F-4 rumor came out of this program? Since it was a letter different and A-4 was transiting thru ROC. Or that was a totally different diversion altogether. -
Originally posted by gary1910:
I have already translated using Babel Fish and posted in the above thread link to MN.
Not a great work due to some of Russian words were not translated by it, 2ndly it need a lot of reformatting, I did not bother too much as long as it could be understood.
thanks for the web site.
I think it is amazing that some time history needs a few man and decision to change the course of a Nation's outcome. ....Yitzhak Rabin was one of them.
"Dear friends," Rabin said, "I want you to remember several things. One, we are not going to turn Singapore into an Israeli colony. Your task is to teach them the military profession, to put them on their legs so they can run their own army. Your success will be if at a certain stage they will be able to take the wheel and run the army by themselves. Second, you are not going there in order to command them but to advise them. And third, you are not arms merchants. When you recommend items to procure, use the purest professional military judgment
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When I was a trainee in OETI, I got a chance to touch the AMX-13 (SM-1) tank.
Even start and rev the engine, this is my experience.
This pic was taken in SAF-Armour Training Insitute at Sungei Gedong camp.
I think is an open house or their armour specialist course passing out parade.
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Originally posted by shinkansen:
When I was a trainee in OETI, I got a chance to touch the AMX-13 (SM-1) tank.
Even start and rev the engine, this is my experience.
This pic was taken in SAF-Armour Training Insitute at Sungei Gedong camp.
http://www.waronline.org/IDF/Articles/tango_magnolia/singapore_soldier_small2.jpg
I think is an open house or their armour specialist course passing out parade.
I think the latest tank crew uses the SAR-21 instead of the carbine which i used last time.
Anyone can confirm that the SM1 are still being used now?
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They were still rolling around when I left in 2005
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Originally posted by tankee1981:
I think the latest tank crew uses the SAR-21 instead of the carbine which i used last time.
Anyone can confirm that the SM1 are still being used now?
Now still using, haven't completely phase out yet. I think SM1 still got other usage.Backup purpose.
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I do not think SM1 will be phased out yet until a light tank or similar replacement is in operation. With its small size and light weight, it can be useful in scenarios not suited for heavier armor including L2A4s and Bionix. This is despite its obsolescent gun and thin armor - it can still be a good fire support platform in situations when enemy AT assets are very low or non existent.
Also, we have so many crews already trained on it, I believe the SM 1 will remain in SAF service for some time to come.
My opinion is that SAF shud keep a heavy / light tank mix for flexibility. A light tank in the 18 to 25 ton range with a 90 or 105 mm gun, state of art fire control & optics, hybrid drive, modern armor & APS will be ideal.
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dun think so, i feel SM1 gonna phase out in 10 years time when the last batch of SM1 tankees complete their 10 years cycle.
despite SM1's strength, its weakness is too old, beyond economical repair...
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Clearly, SM1 will definitely be phased out . It is only when maybe in 10 years time. ButI am saying that by the time it is phased out , a new generation of light tank shud already be in place.
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this thinking of yours of a new generation of light tank will be developed or bought off-the-shelf by SAF ?
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A SM1 light tank replacement is my personal guess. My opinion is that a heavy / light tank mix will give SAF operational flexibilty for different scenarios , although light tanks do not have a very successful operational history in warfare. But with new technologies ( eg APS, sensors, hybrid electric drive etc ) , light tanks can be viable for certain scenarios. Also, trend is towards lighter AFVs as proposed in USA.
As can be seen, ST & MINDEF will develop own equipment for SAF as far as possible if off the shelf not suitable. It cud be a modified / upgraded Bionix type chassis with off the shelf turret or cud be off the shelf chassis with locally developed turret ......etc
Currently there is no new generation type of light tank in development that I know of which incorporates most or all the new / future technologies. There are also only a handful of off the shelf light tank options available now which incorporate some of these new/future technologies.