ASEAN Armies Rifle Meet 2008 - How did contingents fare ?
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Anyone has summary of how the various ASEAN Army contingents fared during the above rifle meet last Dec ? Looking forward to see the results.
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Looks like SAF did not do too well in this meet.
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Well .. All our neighbouring Armies around the region has more live ranges and access to more guns than our army .. it wouldnt be a surprise actually ..
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It is a more of a surprise if we know that our marksmanship is not on par with other armies in the region & we do nothing to address it. I read many posts in this forum about how advanced Singapore is in weapons , military capabilities etc. Sadly, there has been very little reaction on our poor showing in the most basic of soldiering skills.
If lack of live ranges is the reason for not having good marksmen, then we shud have more ranges. One less F16 can build many effective modern ranges. Are not our infantry soldiers already "wedded " to their rifles so they have total access to their rifle.
US Marines & the British Army pride themselves on their marksmanship. We probably shud learn from them .
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a little comment from me here. i heard this one from me encik, so have no idea how true is this but we must consider one thing.
SAF sends a different contigent to these shoot meets every year. the team is culled from the best of the division level. these guys are just better than your average trooper and not specialized marksman.
OTOH, for e.g the team from other nations tend to be full time professional shooters. i.e, exclusive shoot team. their sole job is to train for marksmanship competitions.
and that these shooters often go on to become representatives for their nations in shooting at regional level and global level sports event. the army team is more like a feeder team for their respective national teams.
dont think we can draw too much comparison between them and us. or read too much into its significance assuming that the 2nd fact is accurate. besides, what good is a you shoot me i return fire mode of battle nowadays ? the trend and buzzword is, you shoot me i call the full firepower of NCW on you. i just return fire to cover my ass.
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Does not the SAF also have professionals as are the regulars ?
Our best pistol shooter is a regular commando who represents SAF in these meets too. So I suppose we can do as well ( & we shud ) with our rifle teams. Looking at the rifle meet results, it was a very very poor showing.
Making full use of our advantage of technology is good. We shud never fight fair and if we have the technology to fight unfairly and win we shud use it. No argument here.
The opponents also have brains & advantage in technology can be circumvented. It then boils down to the foot soldier with a rifle , fighting spirit , courage & skill. There are so many examples how riflemen can change the course of battle. The infantryman are holding the assymetric battlelines in Afghanistan & Iraq.
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Individual competitions are not a fair indication of the actual skill levels of the whole organisation.
It's like saying that because Lance Armstrong is such a formidable Tour de France champion, than Americans must be very good road cyclist too ... when for the most, Americans hardly cycle.
A fairer indication of Organisational Marksmenship skill will be:
i) Organisational Philosophy and training emphasis. eg. the USMC
ii) Actual levels of Training resources devoted to marksmenship training. I have heard, anecdotally, that a SAF NSMen fires more rounds in a ICT range then the typical MAF soldier does in a year. Don't know how true this is.
iii) Actual testing standards and shooting test pass rate for the Organisation. Now this will be a real indication of the marksmenship level and an interesting statistic to get hold of.
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Originally posted by NewKidOnTheBlock:
Well .. All our neighbouring Armies around the region has more live ranges and access to more guns than our army .. it wouldnt be a surprise actually ..
How sure of you are of this ... ?
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and a Cyberpioneer article on the meet ... with another excuse ;)
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You know why we didn't fare as well? They didn't let us use our SAR-21!
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Originally posted by kotay:
How sure of you are of this ... ?
I am not stating a fact .. I am stating my own personal opinion. =)But think about this .. for a small country like Singapore .. with firearms banned and only National Shooting Centre available for selected civilians and soldiers, police officers to use .. and with Airsoft and paintball skirmishes banned .. compared to all our Asean neighbours .. who have paintball, airsoft , live ranges for commercial purposes and their military ranges .. seriously .. I honestly think we Singaporeans are not that exposed to shooting ..
My own opinion. Cheers
JL
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AARM should be like a tropical version of the winter olympic biathlon aka cross country plus shooting. only then will it be of any relevance to the armed forces.
in any case, as each of the team competing was on equal footing, naturally there'll be winners and losers. in real combat, each of the team could very well hold their own and achieve their set objectives.
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Unfortunately, competitions DO reflect the level of skill / competence in the organization. After all, the best in the organization are sent to participate in these competitions. Correct me if I am wrong, but it looks as if the SAF contingent in this meet comprised a vast majority of regulars. Regulars & good NSF shooters are given time and resources to train for these competitions & they are the best shooters the SAF has to offer.
Lance Armstrong is / was the best long distance professional cyclist in the world. But it is certain that there are many world class cyclists like him from his country - their numbers can probably be seen in the nationalities of the top ten or world class cyclists. Also, his call to fame is on the Tour De France which is but one cycling event in the cycling calendar.
Cyberpioneer need not report lame excuses - Was the SAF the only contingent that were affected by the "conditions" ?
We need not come out 1st for events , but I think a good showing will be when we have MANY of our particiapants ending up in the top five positions in many events. This kind of outcome then really shows that the organization as a whole has many good shooters. Being first is great but it may be because the individual is just plain exceptional.
We were not allowed to use SAR 21 ? Now if this is true, then the rifle results are seriously flawed ! And if so why not ? Was this in the rules of the competition ? Can someone verify as I wud have thought that standard issue rifles wud be allowed . In this case the Malaysians wud also have been disadvantaged if they were not allowed to use AUGs with standard 1.5 X scopes.
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Originally posted by Sepecat:
Unfortunately, competitions DO reflect the level of skill / competence in the organization. After all, the best in the organization are sent to participate in these competitions. Correct me if I am wrong, but it looks as if the SAF contingent in this meet comprised a vast majority of regulars. Regulars & good NSF shooters are given time and resources to train for these competitions & they are the best shooters the SAF has to offer.
Lance Armstrong is / was the best long distance professional cyclist in the world. But it is certain that there are many world class cyclists like him from his country - their numbers can probably be seen in the nationalities of the top ten or world class cyclists. Also, his call to fame is on the Tour De France which is but one cycling event in the cycling calendar.
Cyberpioneer need not report lame excuses - Was the SAF the only contingent that were affected by the "conditions" ?
We need not come out 1st for events , but I think a good showing will be when we have MANY of our particiapants ending up in the top five positions in many events. This kind of outcome then really shows that the organization as a whole has many good shooters. Being first is great but it may be because the individual is just plain exceptional.
We were not allowed to use SAR 21 ? Now if this is true, then the rifle results are seriously flawed ! And if so why not ? Was this in the rules of the competition ? Can someone verify as I wud have thought that standard issue rifles wud be allowed . In this case the Malaysians wud also have been disadvantaged if they were not allowed to use AUGs with standard 1.5 X scopes.
i think there was a M16 and M4 carbine shoot out. if ya see the data in the link kotay posted.
i quite disagree. its abit like the SEA games. Host nation has the right to host / create special event which benefits them. like i remembered one year, SEA games actually had a chapteh competition. It was hosted by vietnam or loas i think.
which is why no one seriouslly accords these arms meets any significance. its useful as it helps to promote semi-formal ties and interactions between the different forces, disspiating potential tensions between institutions/nation-states (although the idea is there, its somewhat contestable in practice and in effect)
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Originally posted by Sepecat:
We were not allowed to use SAR 21 ? Now if this is true, then the rifle results are seriously flawed ! And if so why not ? Was this in the rules of the competition ? Can someone verify as I wud have thought that standard issue rifles wud be allowed . In this case the Malaysians wud also have been disadvantaged if they were not allowed to use AUGs with standard 1.5 X scopes.
The rules of the competition are in the same website that I linked you to for the competition results. They specifically state "no iron sights" [edit: The rules states "Only Iron Sights"] ... although they do allow quite a bit of leeway in other aspects. The idea is not to let technology (of the rifle) overly influence what is primarily a shooter competition.
If you look at the results of the Rifle category, Malaysia did as badly as Singapore did. I don't know if any inference can be made from that with regards to disadvataged for these 2 contingents with scoped service rifles.
Cyberpioneer need not report lame excuses - Was the SAF the only contingent that were affected by the "conditions" ?
No. All shooters are equally affected by these conditions.
However, I believe that the SAF shooters may be the only contingent that trains predominantly in baffled ranges as opposed to outdoor ranges. So perhaps the SAF contingent is more significantly affected by windy conditions since windage adjustment is not something that they are sued to ... as compared to a shooter who's been shooting outdoors all their life.
Unfortunately, competitions DO reflect the level of skill / competence in the organization. After all, the best in the organization are sent to participate in these competitions. Correct me if I am wrong, but it looks as if the SAF contingent in this meet comprised a vast majority of regulars. Regulars & good NSF shooters are given time and resources to train for these competitions & they are the best shooters the SAF has to offer.
We need not come out 1st for events , but I think a good showing will be when we have MANY of our particiapants ending up in the top five positions in many events. This kind of outcome then really shows that the organization as a whole has many good shooters. Being first is great but it may be because the individual is just plain exceptional.
If you re-read my post, you will find that I did not say that Individual Performances DO NOT reflect competence of an organisation. I merely stated that they are not a fair evaluation and offered other, IMO, better measures of organisational competence.
The performances of a FEW selected individuals (the BEST shooters), only represent one end of the bell curve that reflects the organisation's performance level. What is more important is the shape of the bell curve behind those top few ... which will then indicate more concisely the true level of the organisation's competence.
To take another example, let's assume 2 fictitous units 7 PDF HQ and 999 Battalion Singapore Guards.
7 PDF HQ is mostly PES C personnel but with 3 NSF National Grade runners attached, so that their training does not interrupt unit training. 7PDF HQ has an overall 50% pass rate for IPPT with only 3% Gold.
999 BSG is a combat unit with no National Grade athletes attached. They managed a 97% IPPT Pass rate with 50% Gold standard.
In the Army Half Marathon, each unit is invited to send their 3 best runners for a inter-unit competition.
The 7PDF runners come in 1,2 and 5th ... the 999 BSG runners come in 8, 15 and 21st.
Is it fair to infer from the Army Half marathon results that 999 BSG has issues with fitness that need to be addressed? Or is it better to use the IPPT results?
The larger your sample population, the better your correlation.
But I do agree that a good showing is important ... if for nothing other than "face". Explaining a lose is just poor form.
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Originally posted by sgstars:
i think there was a M16 and M4 carbine shoot out. if ya see the data in the link kotay posted.
Just to help out the others who didn't click through ... these are the Weapon rules for the Rifle Comp
1.13 Rifle.
Any standard service Rifle of caliber not smaller than 5.56mm and not larger than 7.62mm may be used. The following criteria must be met:
a. The method of operation may be self-loading or automatic.
b. Only iron sights are to be used.
c. The weapon must be free from modifications.
d. The trigger pull must not be less than 2.95 kg or 6.5 lbs. For Laos and Myanmar, the trigger pull must not be less than 2.4 kg or 5.0 lbs.
e. The magazine used must not be more than 30-round capacity.
f. The barrel measured from the forward end of the breech to the muzzle must not exceed the length of 509mm or 20 inches.
g. Floating barrel is not permitted. -
Originally posted by sgstars:
i think there was a M16 and M4 carbine shoot out. if ya see the data in the link kotay posted.
Most of the contingents used the M16A2 variant (judging by the handguards) ... including the SAF contingent. So much for standard service rifle.
Interestingly, the Brunei (?) contingent rifle seems to have some form of mod since I can't see an flash suppresor on the end of a thicker-than-normal looking barrel.
The Indonesians used their SS2-V1
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Originally posted by NewKidOnTheBlock:
I am not stating a fact .. I am stating my own personal opinion. =)But think about this .. for a small country like Singapore .. with firearms banned and only National Shooting Centre available for selected civilians and soldiers, police officers to use .. and with Airsoft and paintball skirmishes banned .. compared to all our Asean neighbours .. who have paintball, airsoft , live ranges for commercial purposes and their military ranges .. seriously .. I honestly think we Singaporeans are not that exposed to shooting ..
My own opinion. Cheers
JL
Choto ... paintball is banned in Singapore? Google "Singapore Paintball" ... you'll be surprised.
In any case, paintball, airsoft and laser tags are hardly good marksmenship training. They usually have poor sights and tend to be more "spray and pray" than "aim and shoot". But they are useful for exposing lay people to small unit tactical dynamics.
wrt NSC and private shooting facilities, Singapore's NSC is open to all. You just have to pay but anyone can join ... this is as far as I can remember, when I last inquired about owning and shooting a shotgun in Singapore. I may have gotten organisation names/acronyms wrong but I was specifically told anyone (barring the usual suspects) can join and own a gun ... just that the gun has to be kept at therange and not at home.
I'd venture an opinion that the situation in Asean is not much more advantageous than Singapore's. Comparing to 2 countries that I'm relatively familiar with, Malaysia & Philippines. Private gun ownership is less restrictive compared to Singapore. But the process of ownership is such that LEGAL gun ownership is really only the purvue of the rich ... who don't form a significant portion of the population. ILLEGAL gun ownership is more rampant than Singapore, but illegal guns tend to be of the homemade pipegun (seriously) variety ... again not condusive to citizenry marksmenship. Which again really means that exposure to proper shooting is really only within a small portion of their upper socio-economic population.
OTOH, Singapore schools have recently gone for air-rifles in a big way. Even when I was in Sec School yonks ago, there were already a lot of air rifle clubs ... just that now, the training and equipment levels are much better. I'd suggest that this exposes a larger portion of the population to marksmenship principles than the private gun ownership in ASEAN. Martial value of Air Rifle Club is sh!t though. ;)
I also suspect that at the military level, we actually spend more, per capita (soldier), on marksmenship training compared to our neighbours. A large part of that may simply be because we have better overall funding.
The US will be a vastly better example of basic musketry skills in the population - Gun ownership by the middle class, large number of private ranges, legal hunting seasons.
I am not stating a fact .. I am stating my own personal opinion. =)My own opinion. Cheers
No worries :)
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@kotay :
i stand corrected. i was glancing through the results and noticed that most results were using M16. so i assumed.
my bad my bad. apologize for any inconvenience caused
and we do have combat ranges that are non-baffled conditions. we actually have quite a number of shooting sessions and have variation in distances, and conditions. but i m not sure if i can mention specifics. so ild leave it here for now.
O.T abit, haha why do you have some kinda accuracy statistical/fact/data fetish is it kotay ? Part Kaypo, Part curiousity on my part. no offense intended
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Just a matter of priority, in my opinion. A team of Apache attack helos still beat a dedicated team of small arms world class marksmen.
Just to note, the SSC draws its ranks from various units based from inter formation shooting competitions. They are not full-time shooters, they still need to do their vocation-base duty, be it commando, infantry or CSS.
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Originally posted by kotay:
Choto ... paintball is banned in Singapore? Google "Singapore Paintball" ... you'll be surprised.
Hahah .. I typed Paintball and Airsoft Skirmishes .. of course I do know there is paintball in Singapore but its Speedball not those warfare type which is what they call woodsball i think .. Been reading up on all these coz of interest .. recently wanted to join some batam skirmish thing .. but freaked out by the organiser .. so .. no choice
anyway .. my humble point is .. we as a country .. underexposed to legal firearms as compared to other friendly neighbours.
cheers,
JL
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Originally posted by NewKidOnTheBlock:
anyway .. my humble point is .. we as a country .. underexposed to legal firearms as compared to other friendly neighbours.
cheers,
JL
i dont quite concur.
short of living in america, or some failed state in the third world with civil war and total anarchy, i think no person can feel "overexposed" to legal firearms. its really a relative thing.
look on the brightside. at least the per capita knowledge of firearms and basic technical arms proficiency should be in the high 40 percentile range of the population. (i.e almost half the population knows the basic skills in handling a rifle and shooting)
possibly bettered only by Israel , switzerland and sweden.
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PDF HQ is mostly PES C personnel but with 3 NSF National Grade runners attached, so that their training does not interrupt unit training. 7PDF HQ has an overall 50% pass rate for IPPT with only 3% Gold.
999 BSG is a combat unit with no National Grade athletes attached. They managed a 97% IPPT Pass rate with 50% Gold standard.
In the Army Half Marathon, each unit is invited to send their 3 best runners for a inter-unit competition.
The 7PDF runners come in 1,2 and 5th ... the 999 BSG runners come in 8, 15 and 21st.
Is it fair to infer from the Army Half marathon results that 999 BSG has issues with fitness that need to be addressed? Or is it better to use the IPPT results?
The larger your sample population, the better your correlation
The above reasoning is based on an attribute which cannot be changed - fitness or medical condition ( or lack of it in the example ) . Unfortunately, one cannot change many of those classified as PES C to PES A.
Good marksmanship is a skill which can be changed ( brought to a much higher level ) across the board given sufficient empahsis, time & resources. A PES C can be a great marksman too although he may may no value on a battlefield.
Also, the population size in this case is the whole SG Army. It is a large pool to draw from to get good shooters.
I look forward to the day when SAF hosts the AARM. We can then use scoped standard issue rifles and baffled ranges among other "advantages " & bag the prizes.