Comparsions of Singapore Primus SPH & US FSC NLOS-Cannon

• lionnoisy

  11 Dec 08, 11:10

  Thesaurus of US armed force.

  http://usacac.army.mil/cac2/call/thesaurus.asp

  Singapore locally design and built Primus 155mm 39 Calibre Self Propelled Howitzer

  ,when unveiled in  2003,was the then lighest armoured SPH in the world.

  USA Future Combat System Non Line of Sight Cannon (FSC NLOS-Cannon)

  is still under development.see 1.

  "The initial 5 prototypes(of NLOS Cannon), delivered in calendar year 2008."

  pl see 4A below.

  Although they share some basic features,

  NLOS-Cannon possess some unique features:

  1.a multiple round simultaneous impact (MRSI) capability,see 2 below

  2. precision fires, through the XM982 Excalibur,see2

  3.“The laser ignition system offers much better precision,
       rapid fire, and automation than the mechanical method, and it’s

      safer,” "Sandia proposed a new isolaion sys."see 3.

  However,according to SATCOM 2007,only the laser ignition was

  then incorporated in prototypes.Read today's afternoon posting.

  some interesting issues

  4.weight of NLOS-cannon increase from 20 tons to 27 tons.see 4 below.

  Weight continues to be a concern for both the NLOS-C and other FCS vehicles. Original plans called for the vehicles to come in at 20 tons, which would have allowed them to be transported on C-130s. That plan has been abandoned and most vehicles are now at 27 tons, meaning they must now be taken on larger C-17s, which cannot land on all runways.

  Signorelli# said 27.4 tons is the absolute limit to fit three fully loaded NLOS-Cs onto a C-17. Any more than that, and only two would fit, thus eroding further an FCS brigade’s mobility.

  #Mark Signorelli, NLOS-C program manager at lead contractor BAE Systems.

  4A.two protoypes of 24 and 27 tons

  The initial 5 prototypes, delivered in calendar year 2008, will be the 24 ton MGV configuration as previously discussed with Congress. The 3remaining calendar year 2009 prototypes will be updated to the 27 ton configuration allowing for more pertinent valuable test data to be obtained which, ultimately could reduce
  final configuration prototype testing costs.

  http://www.dtic.mil/descriptivesum/Y2009/Army/0604647A.pdf page 1

   

  5.Is there a high risk combing few features in a new platoforms

  ----much reduced weight

  ---multiple round simultaneous impact (MRSI) capability,

  precision fires  through the XM982 Excalibur,and the laser ignition system?

  6.Are 2 crews enough to man the NLOS-Cannon?

  In this kind of platform,i think u need one driver who engage most of his time,

  if not all,to observe and navigate the route and drive.will another man capable

  to handle the rest of the jobs,like

  help to observe the situation and effects of firings

  comm,receieve info and feedback,SITREP etc

  input target info into Combat Sys etc etc

  There are few more interesting issues:

  7.Date of fielding units(2014) and 38 calibre chosen save 1367 pounds

  http://sill-www.army.mil/FAMAG/2006/MAR_APR_2006/MAR_APR_06_PAGES_10_12.pdf

  Projected for fielding in 2014, the NLOS-C will give the brigade combat team (BCT) commander unprecedented responsiveness and lethality.

  The Army and Field Artillery selected the 38-caliber tube over the longer 39-caliber tube. The 38-caliber tube trades the 39-caliber tube’s additional four kilometers of range (using the M549 rocket-assisted projectile) but saves 1,367 pounds. With the weight savings, NLOS-C will be C-130-deployable with about 25 percent of its basic load of ammunition and still will satisfy the NLOS-C operational requirements.end of quote

  8.Is it really Multiple Round Simultaneous Impact (MRSI)?

  I think few rounds reach the target at the same time

  or within few seconds then can be called as above.

  Pl forgive me if my military or language not so good.

  But,....

  August 2005
  The NLOS Cannon CTD successfully fires six, four-round Multiple Round Simultaneous Impact (MRSI) missions. During each mission, all rounds impacted within four seconds of each other. The missions were fired at Zones 2 and 3 using a combination of M231 and M232 Modular Artillery Charge System (MACS) propellants, marking the first time a U.S. howitzer fired a MRSI mission using more than one type of standard MACS propellant.

  http://www.bartleby.com/61/8/E0000800.html

  http://www.baesystemspresskit.com/nlos_cannon/development_timeline.cfm

   

  Does it mean it takes 12 seconds from 1 st to 4 th rounds hitting the targets?

   

  http://www.army.mil/-news/2008/06/12/9874-nlos-c-unveiled-on-capitol-hill/

  The NLOS-C is expected to be fielded to combat units by 2017.

  http://tardec.army.mil/newsdocs/FCS(BCT)%20Unveils%20Manned%20Ground%20Vehicle%20(MGV)_18July08.pdf

  The vehicle is expected to be
  fielded to combat units by 2017.

  The NLOS-C brings to the battlespace a 155mm, 38-caliber cannon,

  http://www.dtic.mil/descriptivesum/Y2009/Army/0604647A.pdf

  The NLOS-C is the Army's first fully automated 155-mm howitzer, 38 caliber cannon,

   

  9.NLOS-C Early Prototypes Key Capabilities

  Pl note that though Delivery of 8 prototypes in CY08(lion note.CY=calander year),

  the followings are Not Included--
  •
  JTRS & Battle Command
  •
  C4ISR Sensors
  •
  ANS (GPS/INS only)
  •
  Armor (Surrogate only)
  •
  Automated Resupply
  •
  Active Suspension
  •
  NBC & Hit Avoidance
  •
  Defensive Armament

  above NOT included

  http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2007combatvehicle/NDIACOMBATVehiclesDay1/FutureCombatSystemsPANEL1030amREVISED/DavidOgg.pdf

  if u also read those included,u will think  the 2 cutting edge

  of NLOS are NOT in trial yet!!

  1.a multiple round simultaneous impact (MRSI) capability,

  2. precision fires, through the XM982 Excalibur,

  sss

   

  reference:

  1.development schedule of NLOS-Cannon

  

   

  2.MRSI and XM982 Excalibur--http://www.dtic.mil/descriptivesum/Y2009/Army/0604647A.pdf

  3. laser ignition system and isolation sys--

  http://www.sandia.gov/LabNews/ln07-06-07/labnews07-06-07.pdf

  4.weight of NLOS-cannon increase from 20 tons to 27 tons--http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/archive/2008/May/Pages/Armyina2263.aspx

  Spec:

  http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/fcs-nlos-specs.htm

  http://www.mindef.gov.sg/weapons/sph/factsheet.asp

  Primus SPH(FOC)...............NLOS--Cannon(under development)

  Combat weight: 28.3ton ....
  
  Length: 10.21m
  
  Width: 3.00m
  
  Height: 3.28m
  
  Ground Clearance : 0.45m
  
  Operating Range: 350 km
  
  Top Speed: 50 km/h
  
  Crew: 4 men

   

  further reading--

  http://sill-www.army.mil/FAMAG/2006/MAR_APR_2006/MAR_APR_06_PAGES_10_12.pdf

  http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/ic/fcs/bia/news/index.html

  Sep. 29, 2006 Unveiling of Non-Line-of-Sight-Cannon Firing Platform Marks Major Step For Future Combat Systems Manned Ground Vehicle Fleet Development

  Aug. 22, 2007 Boeing and FCS Partners Announce the Kick-off of Non-Line-of-Sight Cannon Work in Elgin, Okla.

   

  bbb

  mmm

  ,,,,fff

  mmmbbb

  mmm

  mmmm

• lionnoisy

  11 Dec 08, 11:26

  I think Primus(in operation) fits the basic spec of the propsed NLOS-Cannon.

  We must bear in mind that Primus can be improved to match the

  extra capabilities which i mentioned above!!

  Spec of Primus SPH,Singapore

  Dimension

  Combat weight : 28.3tons
  Length : 10.21m
  Width : 3.00m

  Height : 3.15m 

  Mobility

  Number of road wheel : 7 per side
  Top speed : 50km/h
  Maximum operating range : 350km
  Climbing side slope : 31°

  Crew

  Gun crew : 4

  Fire Power

  Calibre : 155mm 39 calibre
  Maximum range : 30km with ER projectile
  Rate of fire : 6 rounds/min (maximum rate)

  ......Burst rate:3 rounds per 20 sec

  ......substained rate:2 rounds per min for 30 mins

  references:

  http://www.stengg.com/upload/934MbMkBL5D2UYjKi6F.pdf

  http://www.mindef.gov.sg/weapons/sph/aboutssph.asp

  

  http://www.stengg.com/upload/934MbMkBL5D2UYjKi6F.pdf

  below NLOS Cannon spec

  http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/fcs-nlos-specs.htm

  jjjj

  	System Demonstrator
  Armament		Modified 155mm BAE Systems XM777 cannon
  Projectile Magazine		24 100-pound projectiles
  Propellant Magazine		80 propellant increments
  Caliber		39 caliber tube
  Propulsion		Hybrid-electric drive
  Suspension		Band track suspension
  Hull		Equivalent stiffness aluminum hull
  Weight		Demonstrator weight 23-25 tons
  Speed Road/Terrain		90 kph/56 kph
  Range		30 km
  Crew		Includes provisions for a driver and observer
  Loading		Auto-loading
  Max rate-of-fire		6 rounds per minute
  Sustained rate-of-fire		6 rounds per minute

  mmm

  http://www.baesystems.com/ProductsServices/index.htm

  http://www.baesystems.com/ProductsServices/nlos_cannon.html

  NLOS-C Concept Technology Demonstrator

   

• lionnoisy

  11 Dec 08, 11:58

  The purposes of this thread is not to annoy anyone,

  Singaporeans or non Singaporeans.

  Just to state the facts that SG military technology is not far behind

  others,if we are behind.I dunt mind if u say Primus is just copy cat

  of Paladin.The later spec like this:

  • Max. Rate of Fire:   4 rounds/minute for three minutes
  • Max. Rate of Fire:   1 round/minute (dependent on thermal warning devices)
  • Weight (empty):   56,400 lbs.
  • Facts speak volume than other Bull Sxxx!!

  @@@@@@@

  Can i make myself very damn clear that I am NOT saying current Primus

  is as good as ,nor better than,the proposed finished product of NLOS Cannon.

  But I dare say current Primus(in operation) match the basic spec of

  proposed NLOS Cannon in firing rates ,firing range,mobility range,etc.

  But Primus has yet to be improved in few items which I mention above.

  Who know spec of NLOS-Cannon will be changed further !!

  NLOS-C Unveiled on Capitol Hill--Jun 12, 2008

  makes it plenty of room for improvements!!

  @@@@@@@@@@@@@2

   

  further readings
  

  NLOS-C Unveiled on Capitol Hill--Jun 12, 2008

  BY C. Todd Lopez

  http://www.army.mil/-news/2008/06/12/9874-nlos-c-unveiled-on-capitol-hill/

  

  2.Development and Fielding of the Excalibur XM982 Warhead

  http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008gun_missile/6519SellersTim.pdf

  3.The Non-Line-of-Sight (NLOS) Cannon is an integral part of the U.S. Army's Future Combat Systems (FCS)

  http://www.baesystemspresskit.com/nlos_cannon/

  4.future-combat-systems-showcased-on-national-mall

  http://www.army.mil/-slideshows/2008/06/13/9917-future-combat-systems-showcased-on-national-mall/

  5.

  FCS(BCT) Unveils Manned Ground Vehicle (MGV)
  Non-Line-of-Sight Cannon (NLOS-C)
  Powered by TARDEC-Developed Hybrid-Electric Technology

  http://tardec.army.mil/newsdocs/FCS(BCT)%20Unveils%20Manned%20Ground%20Vehicle%20(MGV)_18July08.pdf

  6.http://www.nloscannon.com/newsreleases.cfm?iid=6F62

  7.http://www.dsta.gov.sg/---search Primus

  bbb

• sgstars

  11 Dec 08, 12:04

  

   

  

   

  

   

  

  and remember the golden question :

  whats a queene lionnoisy ?

  

• lionnoisy

  11 Dec 08, 12:06

  4A.two protoypes of 24 and 27 tons

  pl note i just add the above in opening post.

• sgstars

  11 Dec 08, 12:08

  NLOS-

  BLAH blah blah blah Lionnoisy is talking crap Blah blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah Blah blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah  Lionnoisy is talking crap  blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah Blah blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah Lionnoisy is talking crap blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah  Lionnoisy is talking crap  blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah Blah blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blahblah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah  Lionnoisy is talking crap  blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah Blah blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blahblah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah  Lionnoisy is talking crap  blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah Blah blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blahblah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah  Lionnoisy is talking crap  blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah Blah blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blahblah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah  Lionnoisy is talking crap  blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah Blah blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blahblah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah  Lionnoisy is talking crap  blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah Blah blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blahblah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah  Lionnoisy is talking crap  blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah Blah blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blahblah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah  Lionnoisy is talking crap  blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah Blah blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blahblah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah  Lionnoisy is talking crap  blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah Blah blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blahblah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah  Lionnoisy is talking crap  blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah Blah blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blahblah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah  Lionnoisy is talking crap  blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah Blah blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blahblah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah  Lionnoisy is talking crap  blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah Blah blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah

  i can do a lionnoisy wall of crap too

• lionnoisy

  11 Dec 08, 12:16

  Originally posted by sgstars:

  

   

  

   

  

   

  

  and remember the golden question :

  whats a queene lionnoisy ?

  

  i am sorry i may hurt your feelings of Singapore stuff is always not so good mindset.Can i exercise my Freedom of Speech here to express alternative views.

  Like George Yeo said in zaobao,Singaporean really lack confidences.

  Military technology is really one of the sectors!!

  I am not saying A is better than B in overall.It is very hard to judge unless

  it is very obvious.I know we are told not to do so!!

  Is it very clear Primus is comparable to BASIC features of NLOS Cannon?

  I say comparable,not better than ,NLOS Cannon.Pl take note,

  brothers and sisters!!

  To match the full spec of NLOS Cannon is not a dream!!

  These are bench marks for Primus to be improved.Good.

  @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@2

  While we are NOT to bash other countries,pl do not bash Singhapore also.

  Thanks.Gentle reminder here.Pl tell me if SG is exclued in the following rule.

  Sticky: No more country bashing, or country vs country war scenarios

  bbb

• sgstars

  11 Dec 08, 12:42

  Originally posted by lionnoisy:

  i am sorry i may hurt your feelings of Singapore stuff is always not so good mindset.Can i exercise my Freedom of Speech here to express alternative views.

  Like George Yeo said in zaobao,Singaporean really lack confidences.

  Military technology is really one of the sectors!!

  I am not saying A is better than B in overall.It is very hard to judge unless

  it is very obvious.I know we are told not to do so!!

  Is it very clear Primus is comparable to BASIC features of NLOS Cannon?

  I say comparable,not better than ,NLOS Cannon.Pl take note,

  brothers and sisters!!

  To match the full spec of NLOS Cannon is not a dream!!

  These are bench marks for Primus to be improved.Good.

  @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@2

  While we are NOT to bash other countries,pl do not bash Singhapore also.

  Thanks.Gentle reminder here.Pl tell me if SG is exclued in the following rule.

  bbb

  haha !

  i havent even mentioned anything about singapore yet and you are accusing me of singapore bashing ?

  somewhat taking this a little personal lionnoisy ?

  answer the question lionnoisy , whats a queene ?

  if not you are just simply producing this :

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• sgstars

  11 Dec 08, 12:50

  Originally posted by lionnoisy:

  i am sorry i may hurt your feelings of Singapore stuff is always not so good mindset.Can i exercise my Freedom of Speech here to express alternative views.

  your freedom of speech is conditional :

  Article 14 Freedom of Speech, Assembly, and Association
  
  (1) Subject to clauses (2) and (3) (a) every citizen of Singapore has the right to freedom of speech and expression;
  (b) all citizens of Singapore have the right to assemble peaceably and without arms; and
  (c) all citizens of Singapore have the right to form associations.
  

  (2) Parliament may by law impose
  (a) on the rights conferred by clause (1)(a), such restrictions as it considers necessary or expedient in the interest of the security of Singapore or any part thereof, friendly relations with other countries, public order or morality and restrictions designed to protect the privileges of Parliament or to provide against contempt of court, defamation or incitement to any offence;
  (b) on the right conferred by clause (1)(b), such restrictions as it considers necessary or expedient in the interest of the security of Singapore or any part thereof or public order; and
  (c) on the right conferred by clause (1)(c), such restrictions as it considers necessary or expedient in the interest of the security of Singapore or any part thereof, public order or morality.
  

  (3) Restrictions on the right to form associations conferred by clause (1)(c) may also be imposed by any law relating to labor or education.

  for further reading please proceed to :

  http://statutes.agc.gov.sg/non_version/cgi-bin/cgi_retrieve.pl?actno=REVED-CONST&doctitle=CONSTITUTION%20OF%20THE%20REPUBLIC%20OF%20SINGAPORE%0A&date=latest&method=part&sl=1

  Lionnoisy has offended clause 2a  and b here by posting rubbish that we all dont believe in.

  you are upsetting

  1) public order

  2) moral order

  so technically if sufficient numbers of us petition MP or parliament, we can get you jailed for sedition and your freedom of speech revoked.

  Freedom dosent come free.

• gd4u

  11 Dec 08, 13:45

  Originally posted by lionnoisy:

   

  ,when unveiled in  2003,was the then lighest armoured SPH in the world.

   

  
  
  

  The US SPH, M190 (picture courtesy of wikimedia), weighs abt 27tons. (the picture above shows a MLC of 27) While, below, is the SPH Primus (picture from www.one35th,com, with courtesy of ST ), weighing 28.5tons. Picture  shows Primus having MLC of 30.  If u dun not know what is MLC, pls get the fuck out of here, thanks.

  
  
  
  Picture links here: http://www.one35th.com/bionix/primus155/sph12s.jpg
  http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/M190_houwitser.png
  
  WOW. So 28.5tons is lighter than 27 tons ... damn. I need to learn primary school maths again ...
  
  SPH stats
  Maximum 6 rounds/first minute
  3 rounds/20sec (burst rate)
  2 rounds/min (max sustain rate)
  
  NLOS
  1 round/10 secs (burst rate)
  6 Rounds/min (max sustain rate)
  
  WHile NLOS loses out on the burst rate, it wins on the max sustain rate, which i guess, is what the DoD is looking for.
  
  Oh fuck, why do i bother to reply ... And lion... i NEED U TO ANWSER ME at  "Primus is the lightest SPH around" But the M190 is 1 ton lighter than the Primus itself? Pls do not ignore this part thanks ...
  

• lionnoisy

  11 Dec 08, 13:57

  There are few more interesting issues:

  Date of fielding units(2014) and 38 calibre chosen save 1367 pounds

  http://sill-www.army.mil/FAMAG/2006/MAR_APR_2006/MAR_APR_06_PAGES_10_12.pdf

  Projected for fielding in 2014, the NLOS-C will give the brigade combat team (BCT) commander unprecedented responsiveness and lethality.

  The Army and Field Artillery selected the 38-caliber tube over the longer 39-caliber tube. The 38-caliber tube trades the 39-caliber tube’s additional four kilometers of range (using the M549 rocket-assisted projectile) but saves 1,367 pounds. With the weight savings, NLOS-C will be C-130-deployable with about 25 percent of its basic load of ammunition and still will satisfy the NLOS-C operational requirements. end of quote

   

  http://www.army.mil/-news/2008/06/12/9874-nlos-c-unveiled-on-capitol-hill/

  The NLOS-C is expected to be fielded to combat units by 2017.

  http://tardec.army.mil/newsdocs/FCS(BCT)%20Unveils%20Manned%20Ground%20Vehicle%20(MGV)_18July08.pdf

  The vehicle is expected to be
  fielded to combat units by 2017.

  The NLOS-C brings to the battlespace a 155mm, 38-caliber cannon,

  http://www.dtic.mil/descriptivesum/Y2009/Army/0604647A.pdf

  The NLOS-C is the Army's first fully automated 155-mm howitzer, 38 caliber cannon,

  sss

• lionnoisy

  11 Dec 08, 14:12

  Originally posted by gd4u:

  
  
  

  The US SPH, M190 (picture courtesy of wikimedia), weighs abt 27tons. (the picture above shows a MLC of 27) While, below, is the SPH Primus (picture from www.one35th,com, with courtesy of ST ), weighing 28.5tons. Picture  shows Primus having MLC of 30.  If u dun not know what is MLC, pls get the fuck out of here, thanks.

  
  
  
  Picture links here: http://www.one35th.com/bionix/primus155/sph12s.jpg
  http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/M190_houwitser.png
  
  WOW. So 28.5tons is lighter than 27 tons ... damn. I need to learn primary school maths again ...
  
  SPH stats
  Maximum 6 rounds/first minute
  3 rounds/20sec (burst rate)
  2 rounds/min (max sustain rate)
  
  NLOS
  1 round/10 secs (burst rate)
  6 Rounds/min (max sustain rate)
  
  WHile NLOS loses out on the burst rate, it wins on the max sustain rate, which i guess, is what the DoD is looking for.
  
  Oh fuck, why do i bother to reply ... And lion... i NEED U TO ANWSER ME at  "Primus is the lightest SPH around" But the M190 is 1 ton lighter than the Primus itself? Pls do not ignore this part thanks ...

  1.Are u talking about

  http://www.army.mil/factfiles/equipment/indirect/paladin.html?

  Also,I am talking about Full Combat weigh?How about u?

  For 'The M109A6 (Paladin) howitzer is the most technologically-advanced self-propelled cannon system in The U.S. Army.'

  'Weight (combat loaded):   Approximately 63,615 lbs' or 28.9 tons!!

   

  2.u say

  'NLOS
  1 round/10 secs (burst rate)
  6 Rounds/min (max sustain rate)'---how long can it substain in this rate?

  'SPH stats
  Maximum 6 rounds/first minute
  3 rounds/20sec (burst rate)
  2 rounds/min (max sustain rate)'

• CM06

  11 Dec 08, 14:18

  The way the US Mil and the SAF use their artillery is different - requirements and operational capability is different.

  Until the NLOS, i havent seen any remarkable change to artillery's max sustain rate of 2 rounds/minute(which is kind of standard for 155mms).

  By the way, Artillery normally dont use max range. 

  Accuracy, accuracy, accuracy. 

  STK items arent top of the line, they are more of a niche market - that being the SAF's unique requirements.

• lionnoisy

  11 Dec 08, 14:20

  Is it really Multiple Round Simultaneous Impact (MRSI)?

  I think few rounds reach the target at the same time

  or within few seconds then can be called as above.

  Pl forgive me if my military or language not so good.

  But,....

  August 2005
  The NLOS Cannon CTD successfully fires six, four-round Multiple Round Simultaneous Impact (MRSI) missions. During each mission, all rounds impacted within four seconds of each other. The missions were fired at Zones 2 and 3 using a combination of M231 and M232 Modular Artillery Charge System (MACS) propellants, marking the first time a U.S. howitzer fired a MRSI mission using more than one type of standard MACS propellant.

  http://www.bartleby.com/61/8/E0000800.html

  http://www.baesystemspresskit.com/nlos_cannon/development_timeline.cfm

   

  Does it mean it takes 12 seconds from 1 st to 4 th rounds hitting the targets?

   

• CM06

  11 Dec 08, 14:20

  Originally posted by CM06:

  The way the US Mil and the SAF use their artillery is different - requirements and operational capability is different.

  Until the NLOS, i havent seen any remarkable change to artillery's max sustain rate of 2 rounds/minute(which is kind of standard for 155mms).

  By the way, Artillery normally dont use max range. 

  Accuracy, accuracy, accuracy. 

  STK items arent top of the line, they are more of a niche market - that being the SAF's unique requirements.

   

  EDIT:

  BTW, the MAX sustain rate means LITERALLY the max sustain rate phrasing for all artillery guns - it is able to fire triple the amount of rounds compare to the generic artillery guns within the span of 24 hours.

   

  No, it means that all 6 rounds landed within 4 seconds of the first round hitting.

• sgstars

  11 Dec 08, 14:21

  Originally posted by lionnoisy:

  There are few more interesting issues:

  BLAH blah blah blah Lionnoisy is talking crap Blah blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah Blah blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah  Lionnoisy is talking crap  blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah Blah blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah Lionnoisy is talking crap blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah  Lionnoisy is talking crap  blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah Blah blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blahblah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah  Lionnoisy is talking crap  blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah Blah blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blahblah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah  Lionnoisy is talking crap  blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah Blah blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blahblah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah  Lionnoisy is talking crap  blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah Blah blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blahblah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah  Lionnoisy is talking crap  blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah Blah blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blahblah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah  Lionnoisy is talking crap  blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah Blah blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blahblah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah  Lionnoisy is talking crap  blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah Blah blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blahblah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah  Lionnoisy is talking crap  blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah Blah blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blahblah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah  Lionnoisy is talking crap  blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah Blah blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blahblah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah  Lionnoisy is talking crap  blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah Blah blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blahblah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah  Lionnoisy is talking crap  blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah Blah blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blahblah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah  Lionnoisy is talking crap  blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah Blah blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah

  with lionnoisy, there are no interesting issues. only bigotry , stupidity and more moronic behaviour.

  FREEDOM OF SPEECH ? what freedom of speech ? why lionnoisy ? cite your constitution without knowing what your constitution says about your freedom of speech ?

  answer the question here. why you want to cite freedom of speech and run away when confronted ?

  freedom of speech, conditional yes, freedom of crap, HELL NO.

  

   

  

  whats a queene lionnoisy ? dont run away like a cowardly lion :) whats a queene ?

  

• lionnoisy

  11 Dec 08, 14:28

  Originally posted by sgstars:

  Originally posted by lionnoisy:

  There are few more interesting issues:

  BLAH blah blah blah Lionnoisy is talking crap Blah blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah Blah blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah  Lionnoisy is talking crap  blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah Blah blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah Lionnoisy is talking crap blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah  Lionnoisy is talking crap  blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah Blah blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blahblah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah  Lionnoisy is talking crap  blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah Blah blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blahblah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah  Lionnoisy is talking crap  blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah Blah blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blahblah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah  Lionnoisy is talking crap  blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah Blah blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blahblah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah  Lionnoisy is talking crap  blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah Blah blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blahblah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah  Lionnoisy is talking crap  blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah Blah blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blahblah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah  Lionnoisy is talking crap  blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah Blah blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blahblah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah  Lionnoisy is talking crap  blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah Blah blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blahblah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah  Lionnoisy is talking crap  blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah Blah blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blahblah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah  Lionnoisy is talking crap  blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah Blah blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blahblah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah  Lionnoisy is talking crap  blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah Blah blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blahblah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah  Lionnoisy is talking crap  blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah Blah blah blah blah Crap crap crap poot poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah blah blah blah poot poot blah

  with lionnoisy, there are no interesting issues. only bigotry , stupidity and more moronic behaviour.

  FREEDOM OF SPEECH ? what freedom of speech ? why lionnoisy ? cite your constitution without knowing what your constitution says about your freedom of speech ?

  answer the question here. why you want to cite freedom of speech and run away when confronted ?

  freedom of speech, conditional yes, freedom of crap, HELL NO.

  

   

  

  whats a queene lionnoisy ? dont run away like a cowardly lion :) whats a queene ?

  

  Dear All,including All Powerful MODS,

  U have seen what our learned fren here have contributed here--nuisances.

  I dunt mind s/he post few lines of funny things or insulting stuff.

  But this is too much.No fun at all.

  By  inactions to stop or warn all these kind of spams,

  u are adopting a silent endorsement policy!!

  Your inaction cannot enhance the traffic of the whole forum.

  Every one shall voice your opinions of the valuable contributions

  of our fren here.

  I am waiting.Rememeber,people quitting this forum will not tell

  us.Thats why u see the traffic and real contributions on Military Nut

  is falling.......I think i have done my part,though not

  so perfect?How about u?

  @@@@@@

  i am wandering if my English is better,how would i be treated differently?

   

• lionnoisy

  11 Dec 08, 14:30

  Originally posted by CM06:

   

  No, it means that all 6 rounds landed within 4 seconds of the first round hitting.

  i dunt think so.

  Ok lah.i give up.4 sec or 12 sec will also do lah!!!

  http://www.bartleby.com/61/8/E0000800.html

  It is often maintained that each other should be used to denote a reciprocal relation between two entities, with one another reserved for more than two: thus The twins dislike each other but The triplets dislike one another. Sixty-four percent of Usage Panelists say that they follow this rule in their own writing. But it should be pointed out that many reputable writers from Samuel Johnson onward have ignored the rule and that the use of each other for more than two, or of one another for two, cannot be considered incorrect.

• lionnoisy

  11 Dec 08, 14:42

  I salute Yankees that once they know it is a mission impossible,they

  will change their base lines.If not,it will take another few years or more

  for the prototype to roll out.Rememebr i say in opening post about

  the initial weight is 20 tons.In fact ,they were quite firm!!

  .O {color:black;} a:link {color:#339933 !important;} <!--.sld {left:0px !important; width:6.0in !important; height:4.5in !important; font-size:103% !important;} -->

  Since C-130 Transportability (i.e. 19 Ton ECC) Is a Firm Requirement, Then Our Exercise Is a Balancing of Weight and Performance – Constrained by Cost and Schedule

  PowerPoint Presentation

  ... 4 FCS Increment 1 5 NLOS-Cannon Requirements BAND 1: (7...Requirements In Every Band That Affect NLOS-Cannon. There are 17 Specific NLOS...Is The Variant Integrator For NLOS-Cannon FCS Manned Ground Vehicles...

  http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2004precision/mcnulty.ppt

  
  

  Yes!!u have to make a choice of weight and performance and most important,

  time constraints!!U cant spend 10 to 15 years to develop a platform,brothers!!
  

  xxx

• lionnoisy

  11 Dec 08, 14:46

  http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008psa_peo/Demella.pdf

  Evolution of Artillery

  ...by: Dominick DeMella Chief NLOS Cannon Artillery Division ARDEC, Picatinny.

  search wahtever u like and SHARE here pl Thanks.

• lionnoisy

  11 Dec 08, 14:56

  In this Oct 2007 slides,NLOS Cannon will be fielded in 2011.

  http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2007combatvehicle/NDIACOMBATVehiclesDay1/FutureCombatSystemsPANEL1030amREVISED/DavidOgg.pdf

  1What NLOS-C Brings to the Battlefield

  Operational Capabilities
  •
  Provides sustained fires for close support, destructive fires for standoff engagement
  Lethality
  •
  Multiple-round, simultaneous impact (MRSI) mission and multi-mission capable equals 2-3 Paladins
  •
  Sustained rate of fire (ROF) exceeds Paladin
  •
  Response to missions is faster than Paladin
  •
  Automated ammo handling allows change in effects round- by-round, mission-by-mission
  •
  Improved accuracy thru projectile tracking system
  Command and Control
  •
  Networked BC with Current Force interoperability
  Sustainability
  •
  High commonality with MGV, especially NLOS-M
  •
  Automated rearm of 155mm ammo is faster than Paladin

  
  2.NLOS-C Early Production (P1-P9)(lion note-P=prototype)
  •
  Driven by Congressional intent
  –
  Delivery of 8 prototypes in CY08(lion note.CY=calander year)
  –
  Follow-on hand-off to TRADOC in 2010
  •
  Purpose
  –
  Reduces risk to MGV Increment 1
  –
  Balances cost, risk, schedule, test needs and User intent to make subsystem-by- subsystem configuration decisions
  –
  Proves out cannon as well as key common risk areas (propulsion, suspension, vetronics, environmental control)
  –
  Managed by same NLOS-C and Common teams (as Incr 1) through tailored design reviews … not an independent effort
  –
  Provides early learning opportunity on platform integration across MGV, C4ISR, UGV teams for hardware and software
  •
  Timing

  P=prototype

  (lion note.CY=calander year)QTR =quarter
  

  
  –NLOS-C P1 to Army Ball 2nd QTR CY08, YPG Firing Safety Testing
  •
  3rd QTR CY08 - 2nd QTR CY09
  –
  NLOS-C P3 to YPG 3rd QTR CY08 for Mobility and Communications Safety Testing

  3.NLOS-C Early Prototypes Key Capabilities

  Not Included
  •
  JTRS & Battle Command
  •
  C4ISR Sensors
  •
  ANS (GPS/INS only)
  •
  Armor (Surrogate only)
  •
  Automated Resupply
  •
  Active Suspension
  •
  NBC & Hit Avoidance
  •
  Defensive Armament

  above NOT included

  Included

  Early Prototype – P1-P8 (2008-2009)

  P=Prototype
  Non-Line-of-Sight Cannon
  •
  Automated ammo handling
  •
  Projectile tracking system
  •
  Laser propellant ignition
  •
  High efficiency muzzle brake
  •
  Ultra lightweight cannon/breech
  •
  Drive by wire controls
  •
  Environmental control
  •
  Hybrid electric drive
  •
  High power density diesel engine
  •
  Hydro-pneumatic suspension (passive)
  •
  21” band track
  •
  Integrated GPS/INS
  •
  Interface with FBCB2, SO-1 network via AFATDS

  end of quote

  vvv

   

• lionnoisy

  11 Dec 08, 15:10

  This mean the 2 cutting edge of NLOS are NOT in trial yet!!

  1.a multiple round simultaneous impact (MRSI) capability,see 2 below

  2. precision fires, through the XM982 Excalibur,see2

  @@@@@@@@@@@@@@

  So for the prototype ,the cutting edge compared with current Primus

  is only The laser ignition system.

• lionnoisy

  11 Dec 08, 15:23

   

  search NLOS in this pdf ---more NLOS Cannon info here.

  Link to Source Document

• Pentaxdude90

  11 Dec 08, 15:25

  

• gd4u

  11 Dec 08, 15:26

  Nope
  
  The web below states the M109 Combat loaded weight at 27.5tons. Only the A6 variant is 31.8 tons (28.849 mt) .
  http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/cv/arty/M109.html
  
  I am sorry if i didn't state clearly. The M109 A1/2/3/4/5 series were all developed before 2003 , ie to say, before SPH Primus came out. (The M109A6 variant is developed in 2007)
  
  I am also sorry that u didn't bother to look clearly. The wiki photo i posted is the Royal Netherlands Army M109A2 variant ...
  
  Neither u have answered the MLC part that i have raised. Clearly, u have not understand the importance of MLC and MLC labels on military vehicle.
  
  Yet, u said that Primus is the lightest in the world. But no, that's wrong. M109 existed b4 Primus. Pls admit the fact. Or admit that u were wrong in stating Primus is lightest in the world.