Terrorism Mumbai
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Wow! Who was the one filming the video of the "Commandos" "storming" the Taj Mahal? Was he a civilian or one of the commandos?
Interesting to see how the "Commandos" let civilians tag along in their assault...
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lets not let this argument get too personal.
peace all.
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Originally posted by Jlarikker:
I must say that a lot of views here are quite un-informed. a lot of it appears as if people in singapore think that this cannot happen here. i think we are all underestimating the resolve and will of these perpetrators of hatred. do not go by what u see in papers, as outside of singapore papers can pursue their own agenda.
i am Indian and i have a close understanding of the indian armed forces, which have proven time and again the ability to fight heroically and more importantly smartly with its enemies. one only has to look at the data coming out of the various exercises conducted with indian and other country armed forces, indian airforce had such a trouncing of the USAF that they indeed had to have a relook at their own capabilites and strategies (the key finding was how the pilots improvised while in combat) USAF follows rigid models. also consider data arising out of singaporean army vs indian army in its joint exercises. i am not saying one is better than the other but i am saying that the indian army is relatively respectable.
the oft repeated chinese incursion, and defeat of india at the hand of chinese, one should look at facts a bit more, china attacked india while at the same time pursuing a friendly relationship with india (i guess only chinese can do that) timed it with the cuban crisis and unilaterally declared ceasefire when the cuban crisis ended. india was caught unawares as its politicians trusted their chinese counterparts and by the time the army was mobilised from the pakistani side, the chinese declared ceasefire, and india would have had to declare war against china inorder to regain the frozen desert it lost to china. india in its history has never first attacked any country.
the biggest weakness india has is its democracy coupled with weak political leadership. politicians in india try to enrich themselves at the cost of thepeople, which i personally think is the opposite of what happens in singapore.
please do not talk about these things with arrogance as this could easily happen to any country, and the least expected it is, the more the damage it inflicts.
the crisis in mumbai could have been handled better. i would not ever blame the soldiers involved, they were doing their duty the best they can. i would blame the politicians of the country.
in terms of the operations, one should before talking all the stuff that people did before, check the facts. the israeli hostages were killed execution style long before the operation started with a bullet in their heads, their hands and feet were bound.
the building in which the fire fight occured is cramed between 3 other such buildings (dont think HDB, it is so much more cramped given the bribery in bldg permits) together there were around a 1000 people in those buildings, with all the operations going on, but the only dead were the israeli's who were killed before the operations started. i would think results speak better than photos, i agree that the position of the commando in the picture posted above is not too professional or even safe, but the focus of the training of a voluntary army and a conscript force is different. one also does not know the actual field conditions to make judgements.
in the hotels the operation was not a bang bang bang, indeed if you listened carefully in the videos, you could hear no automatic fire, it was all semi automatic at best. the commandos were knocking at each room, asking people to slip out an id, asking to open doors and step aside, entering each room, expecting to be fired upon, checking veracity of ids and if found to be genuine escorting the hostages down into a safe room, which was attacked by the terrorists twice (terrorists had the advantage of more detailed intel, as they had staked the place out well - u must go check if the SDF had complete intel and floor plans of the panpacific before the incident - it is not fair to compare as mumbai alone has close to 20 million people and is much bigger than singapore) they had to do this in close to 1000 rooms in each hotel, while suppressing fire bases of the terrorists and checking for booby traps all along. if any one thinks these terrorists are kids with guns, they are mistaken. i could clearly see, in the videos very trained men, ( i would think in the american model, check out the taped magazines) providing covering fire while moving into position, 5 steps a time each, doing a buddy.
after all that, the nation lost only 2 commandos ( of which major sandeep died saving an injured buddy not runnig away, dont know about the other one), and i think that is good. it is difficult to estimate collateral damage, but the employees of the hotel that i contacted and who were in there told me it could have been worse. now the grenade launcher - pls dont jump into conclusions. those were stun grenades, definitely not frags, you could see the impact of the launches in some of the videos, no breakage of the walls, no embedded fragments.
JI which is a ruling coalition member in bangladesh has recently announced that they would make sure that military training is provided in madrasas... so i dont think we have seen enough yet
i swear he wrote all that while dancing in a flower field with thousand of dancers at the back dancing and singing , an extremly patriotic hindustani song (20 minutes long! FTW) with an extremely sexy and beautiful hindustani girl
i lol'd at the bold...so melodramatic....and how many exactly security forces casualties? 2? i dont think so?
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Originally posted by Fatum:
a shining example of professionalism ? ... *snorts ....
you are all blind? dont you see that the super elites commando were actually using super stealth Land warrior type weapon there? (the one that the american copied from the indian!)
look! the gadget were all there , its just in stealth mode!
ant the super futuristic darthvader helmet FTW!
Disclaimer: the picture above were actually turkish and not american land warrior system
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The discussion here truly meets the name of Military nuts.
No one is saying anything about the politicians or about the media. After the attack these were the two that was critizized for being irresponsible. The politicians for not acting on the intelligence, for not providing the security forces with the equipments they required, for not bringing in reform in the security setup, for not making a strong law. The media was critizized for covering the incident live and for not having the human touch. They were more interested in who gets the news first. They deserve to be
critizized. But I don't understand why people are blaming the security forces. What have they done. Sacrificed their lives to save others. One of the policemen who captured the terrorist was only armed with a lathi. They did their duty. Many sacrificed their lives. Did they say , that they are ill equipped and they don't want to fight the terrorists since the chance of them getting killed is 100%. Even the commandos were ill equipped.Fatum, your observations are pathetic. You said look at 0.20 of the video. So what. What did you understand. Nothing. On that day, I had seen the full video of what was happening and I can explain it to you. The guy is on top of a building which is still shorter than the neightbouring Nariman house. The Neighbouring building is about 5 meters away or so. The terrorist is firing back. He had to take the terrorist. How to do that. The terrorist is not close to the window. He is keeping a safe distance. The best way to shoot is the way you saw hoping that by chance when the terrorist tries to hit back, he gets him. There is nothing wrong in that and there is no hostages there. It was ended after a grenade was lobbed inside to kill the terrorist.
So it's not good to make comments without understanding the issue properly. It's not good. Not good here also not good anywhere else.
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Originally posted by Shotgun:
Wow! Who was the one filming the video of the "Commandos" "storming" the Taj Mahal? Was he a civilian or one of the commandos?
Interesting to see how the "Commandos" let civilians tag along in their assault...
Yes the media was everywhere compromising security of the forces. In a democratic setup you cannot use force against the media. It's the responsibility of the media not to provide such information live. There were hundreds of them everywhere. Some of them were acting responsible. Some especially the english media was showing it 24 hours live on telivision like in Truman show. The ones that we saw inside the Taj is of low quality. It may be from a mobile phone camera. Also Taj may also have Photographers who may be covering some important events when the incident happened. There also you cannot blame the commandos. The commando cannot go asking others to stop filiming. Even though he can ask, there is no guarantee that it will be obliged. Also he is looking for terrorists rather than waste time to observe on who is filiming him he did his duty. Now I really admire them and feel sorry for the commandos. They were in such trouble. Not only from the terrorists but also from the irresponsible media and the enthusiastic people.
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Originally posted by Bhagats:
The discussion here truly meets the name of Military nuts.
No one is saying anything about the politicians or about the media. After the attack these were the two that was critizized for being irresponsible. The politicians for not acting on the intelligence, for not providing the security forces with the equipments they required, for not bringing in reform in the security setup, for not making a strong law. The media was critizized for covering the incident live and for not having the human touch. They were more interested in who gets the news first. They deserve to be
critizized. But I don't understand why people are blaming the security forces. What have they done. Sacrificed their lives to save others. One of the policemen who captured the terrorist was only armed with a lathi. They did their duty. Many sacrificed their lives. Did they say , that they are ill equipped and they don't want to fight the terrorists since the chance of them getting killed is 100%. Even the commandos were ill equipped.Fatum, your observations are pathetic. You said look at 0.20 of the video. So what. What did you understand. Nothing. On that day, I had seen the full video of what was happening and I can explain it to you. The guy is on top of a building which is still shorter than the neightbouring Nariman house. The Neighbouring building is about 5 meters away or so. The terrorist is firing back. He had to take the terrorist. How to do that. The terrorist is not close to the window. He is keeping a safe distance. The best way to shoot is the way you saw hoping that by chance when the terrorist tries to hit back, he gets him. There is nothing wrong in that and there is no hostages there. It was ended after a grenade was lobbed inside to kill the terrorist.
So it's not good to make comments without understanding the issue properly. It's not good. Not good here also not good anywhere else.
you obviously belongs to the mattel playing category, you only blardy make sure there are no hostages around when you secure the whole site and everyone is either dead or secured .... which brings us to the next question, the way "hostages", civilians, and non-security personnel were allowed to mix freely with the "commandos" during a live operation, but don't you worry about that for now, it's really beyond your level.
how about using your anus to think for a second, just for the sake of argument, now if there were NO hostages around, for fark you're playing shootouts with the terrorists, before the grenade goes through ? ... so it is obvious that these so called "elite commandos" were playing a pathetic version of the CT game ...
and nevermind about that in anycase, for that is obviously bad tactics ... as shotgun and so many others have pointed out, and which even our erstwhile Indian Army chap above have acknowledged, that shooting like that is obviously very unprofessional, you shoot only what you can see, if you can't see it, you don't shoot it, and of you are simply spraying like what we have seen, then they obviously belong to the "African Infantryman" category ...
It is so obvious that you're simply winging it here, either you have NOT served NS and received any sort of weapons training before, and your "expertise" purely stemmed from bollywood or hollywood movies, and are without a clue what you're talking about, or you belonged to a group or an army that taught such an unprofessional and dangerous shooting ....
but of course, you're really just defending your own, isn't it ? ....
but since it's christmas, here's something for you, it's time you stopped sucking on a teat and open your eyes, with this baby here, you CAN spray and shoot with aiming, don't worry ....
now with this baby .... you can play shootouts safely like these chaps below ....
run along and play now, I think the cap to fill that up with water is at the top ...
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Originally posted by Bhagats:
Yes the media was everywhere compromising security of the forces. In a democratic setup you cannot use force against the media. It's the responsibility of the media not to provide such information live. There were hundreds of them everywhere. Some of them were acting responsible. Some especially the english media was showing it 24 hours live on telivision like in Truman show. The ones that we saw inside the Taj is of low quality. It may be from a mobile phone camera. Also Taj may also have Photographers who may be covering some important events when the incident happened. There also you cannot blame the commandos. The commando cannot go asking others to stop filiming. Even though he can ask, there is no guarantee that it will be obliged. Also he is looking for terrorists rather than waste time to observe on who is filiming him he did his duty. Now I really admire them and feel sorry for the commandos. They were in such trouble. Not only from the terrorists but also from the irresponsible media and the enthusiastic people.
now it's even more obvious that you don't know shit what you're talking about ... you don't really understand why you have to hustle every non-terrorist out of the area do you ? ...
nevermind about the potential intelligence bonanza to the surviving terrorists, it's not something for you to readily understand, so don't get a brain stroke trying to wrap your head around it ....
and nevermind about the rule that you treat everyone as a hostile till proven otherwise .... a chap may be milling around pretending to be a hostage, but he may be carrying a live grenade with the pin pulled out (perhaps more well read chaps like stars would recall just such an incident from the iranian embassy seige), so you treat everyone as a hostile inside, take down anyone that's shooting at you, hustle everyone under guard outside till the police sorts everyone out ....
but nevermind, perhaps only the best in the world would know to do that, maybe that's simply too much to expect, judging from what the world had seen ... so let's approach this from one level down ... you have groups of civilians milling around you, mixed up with your own chaps, and some chaps just obviously standing there not doing anything, watching everything in sight, free frag for the terrorists during any fresh breakouts of firing, not to mention getting in the way of your own fire, adding to the confusion of an already confused and unplanned operation .... smart eh ? ....
and perhaps the most ludricious of all .... you're saying that the "commandos" and the security forces cannot stop the press from following them around during a live operation ?!?!?! ....
...... either your head's stuck in your own anus ..... or, as we have seen ... it happens only in India .......... -
Originally posted by Fatum:
now it's even more obvious that you don't know shit what you're talking about ... you don't really understand why you have to hustle every non-terrorist out of the area do you ? ...
nevermind about the potential intelligence bonanza to the surviving terrorists, it's not something for you to readily understand, so don't get a brain stroke trying to wrap your head around it ....
and nevermind about the rule that you treat everyone as a hostile till proven otherwise .... a chap may be milling around pretending to be a hostage, but he may be carrying a live grenade with the pin pulled out (perhaps more well read chaps like stars would recall just such an incident from the iranian embassy seige), so you treat everyone as a hostile inside, take down anyone that's shooting at you, hustle everyone under guard outside till the police sorts everyone out ....
but nevermind, perhaps only the best in the world would know to do that, maybe that's simply too much to expect, judging from what the world had seen ... so let's approach this from one level down ... you have groups of civilians milling around you, mixed up with your own chaps, and some chaps just obviously standing there not doing anything, watching everything in sight, free frag for the terrorists during any fresh breakouts of firing, not to mention getting in the way of your own fire, adding to the confusion of an already confused and unplanned operation .... smart eh ? ....
and perhaps the most ludricious of all .... you're saying that the "commandos" and the security forces cannot stop the press from following them around during a live operation ?!?!?! ....
...... either your head's stuck in
your own anus ..... or, as we have seen ... it happens only in
India ..........hehe obviously he doesnt know what are sleepers...imagine what if the civillian was carrying a grenade! Just to add on to your point, media has to be blocked out no matter if the country is democratic or not. go watch the movie SWAT and there would be a scene whereby a swat officer tackles a cameraman down. Also the commandos forgot to cut power to the building. Just do a simple comparison between the iranian embassy seige and this mumbai fiasco and one would see how inadequately planned was the operation.
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Originally posted by Bhagats:
The discussion here truly meets the name of Military nuts.
No one is saying anything about the politicians or about the media. After the attack these were the two that was critizized for being irresponsible. The politicians for not acting on the intelligence, for not providing the security forces with the equipments they required, for not bringing in reform in the security setup, for not making a strong law. The media was critizized for covering the incident live and for not having the human touch. They were more interested in who gets the news first. They deserve to be
critizized. But I don't understand why people are blaming the security forces. What have they done. Sacrificed their lives to save others. One of the policemen who captured the terrorist was only armed with a lathi. They did their duty. Many sacrificed their lives. Did they say , that they are ill equipped and they don't want to fight the terrorists since the chance of them getting killed is 100%.Fatum, your observations are pathetic. You said look at 0.20 of the video. So what. What did you understand. Nothing. On that day, I had seen the full video of what was happening and I can explain it to you. The guy is on top of a building which is still shorter than the neightbouring Nariman house. The Neighbouring building is about 5 meters away or so. The terrorist is firing back. He had to take the terrorist. How to do that. The terrorist is not close to the window. He is keeping a safe distance. The best way to shoot is the way you saw hoping that by chance when the terrorist tries to hit back, he gets him. There is nothing wrong in that and there is no hostages there. It was ended after a grenade was lobbed inside to kill the terrorist.
So it's not good to make comments without understanding the issue properly. It's not good. Not good here also not good anywhere else.
Shouldnt the security forces be the ones blocking out the media? The politicians are not the ones responsible for the recon my dear...it should be the commandos themselves...
Also why they shot the hostages? cos its a terrorism attack!!! they WANT to kill as many as possible. the moment they heard the chopper, they knew they wouldnt live long, so might as well kill the hostages!!!! omg seriously...go read up before posting here pls, dont make a fool out of yourself..
So it's not good to make comments without understanding the issue properly. It's not good. Not good here also not good anywhere else.
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eeee u make me scard sia i scard die sobbb~~~ T_T
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LoL. So if the security forces aren't the ones supposed to block out the media, neither are the politicians since they are supposed to be "democratic", then who does it?? Nobody? That means the media is King and can go anywhere as they please! Bloody might as well storm the Taj with journalists!
There's a word used in the military circles for keeping journalists out. The US have used it, the Israelis have used it... Its called OPSEC. Anything that compromises it, goes.
Seriously, that kinda shooting position, its unlikely that he'd hit anything. More likely, he's just monkeying around trying to distract the terrorist from something else. So thats my piece of tactical consideration for the most ridiculous shooting pictures seen of "proffessionals" to date.Point to note, if they were well equipped, they would have used corner shot systems. Oh wait... blame the politicians for not equipping them. Seriously... with more than 100 terrorist groups operating in India, they should bloody start working on their CT training and equipment. Nobody wants to see another botched bollywood rescue again.
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More like, why the fuck should there be any civilians in a war zone or do these retards want to add themselves to the body count?
The standards of journalism must be falling to new lows these days with this sort of morons on the streets looking for some crap to sensationalise.