Terrorism Mumbai
-
India's reaction to the hostage-taking is rather fast.
Perhaps a little too fast.
It looks like one of those BANG BANG BANG AND IT'S OVER kind.
-
They should all calm down have a few teh tarik together and discuss how to fight the problem together.Whoever responsible wants the two countries to nuke each other and that is going to be the ultimate terror so we mustnt play into their hands.
-
Agreed.
The 10 guys were obviously pawns in the game.
-
Originally posted by sgstars:
SAS made a boo-boo while storming of the iranian embassy in the 80s during margret tatcher's helm at PM. they had one guy entagled in his own rappeling rope.
honestly i m not here to point fingers and push blame.or question competency. maybe you'd like to be in the same situation? its not something enviable
-gunbattles from wed night to friday morning.
-press hounding.
-thousands of hostages
-terrorists/militants executing hostages.
-multiple locations
-loss of key personnel : police anti-terror chief
- multiple agencies working with different doctrines and tactics.
at least they made an effort to act fast and save lives. given the complexity of it, im pretty amazed they pulled it off.
pictures dont present the context. You look at the pictures of SAF soldiers bumming around training shed or sleeping, does it mean we are incompetent ? you look at the latest SAF army commercial with the allusions to spartans does that mean we are all spartans ?
the picture does not explicitly show him firing. but they might have used excessive firepower. there are pictures of them using an AGL to shoot grenades (could be the normal or AB kind, not sure)
lets not be too hasty to comment and pass judgement. you are letting your feelings cloud your judgement.
The Indian special forces are well trained enough to access the situation and move in so I have to agree with you.Some collateral damage must be sacrificed to put an end to it but unfortunately for the Indians this one is hugh.
-
Originally posted by Bison24:
Guys, i think this level of attack targetted againts Indian SF, on this forum is unfounded. They had a job to do and they did it well. Unfortunatly most of those tragic souls who died where shot at even before any forces where on the scene.
Whats the point of negioting when the terrorists had no intention of doing so?
For those on this forum to say the Indian soilder lack professionalism, may i remind them that Marcos and NSGs are hand picked soilders who are then sent to Isreal for SFX training in urbain anti terror ops, they are the best of the best. The gun handling techniques you guys are mocking, are widly used in Russian and Isreali SPXs.
more unflattering comments are emerging ..... now it appears that the "hand picked, best of the best" as you put it ... have quite disappointed their former Israeli teachers ....
Even the commandos lacked night vision goggles and thermal sensors that would have allowed them to locate the hostages and gunmen inside the buildings, Sahni said.
Security forces announced they had killed four gunmen and ended the siege at the mammoth Taj Mahal hotel on Thursday night, only to have fighting erupt there again the next day. Only on Saturday morning did they actually kill the last remaining gunmen.
At the Jewish center, commandos rappelled from a helicopter onto the roof and slowly descended the narrow, five-story building in a 10-hour shooting and grenade battle with the two gunmen inside.
From his home in Israel, Assaf Hefetz, a former Israeli police commissioner who created the country's police anti-terror unit three decades ago, watched the slow-motion operation in disbelief.
The commandos should have swarmed the building in a massive, coordinated attack that would have overwhelmed the gunmen and ended the standoff in seconds, he said.
"You have to come from the roof and all the windows and all the doors and create other entrances by demolition charges,'' he said.
The slow pace of the operations made it appear that the commandos' main goal was to stay safe, Hefetz said.
http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2008/12/1/apworld/20081201125246&sec=apworld
maybe that was why our MP 5 toting, bollywood action hero was firing his machine gun from such a funny position ? ... to stay safe ?
if the Israelis were the teachers, then I guess someone needs to stay back for remedial lessons ...
-
By the look at the picture you posted you probably have better timing in 2.4km than he can put in.
this picture was a bad example of a professional body. the way he stand, he had exposed half of his body and have to rise his arm.....
-
Originally posted by Arapahoe:
By the look at the picture you posted you probably have better timing in 2.4km than he can put in.
this picture was a bad example of a professional body. the way he stand, he had exposed half of his body and have to rise his arm.....
-
well i mean if he raise his arm higher we could probably see his belly.....
-
what happen was there was no central control or command operations center !!! It was a total mess on the ground - you have police, different army unit including commandos all in un-coordinated actions .... thus by the time the commandos are on the ground - you already have other army and police unit already charging ahead engaging .... thus commandos therefore are force into direct actions without any preparation ... that why the commandos are not effective and seem lost and disorganised.
-
I must say that a lot of views here are quite un-informed. a lot of it appears as if people in singapore think that this cannot happen here. i think we are all underestimating the resolve and will of these perpetrators of hatred. do not go by what u see in papers, as outside of singapore papers can pursue their own agenda.
i am Indian and i have a close understanding of the indian armed forces, which have proven time and again the ability to fight heroically and more importantly smartly with its enemies. one only has to look at the data coming out of the various exercises conducted with indian and other country armed forces, indian airforce had such a trouncing of the USAF that they indeed had to have a relook at their own capabilites and strategies (the key finding was how the pilots improvised while in combat) USAF follows rigid models. also consider data arising out of singaporean army vs indian army in its joint exercises. i am not saying one is better than the other but i am saying that the indian army is relatively respectable.
the oft repeated chinese incursion, and defeat of india at the hand of chinese, one should look at facts a bit more, china attacked india while at the same time pursuing a friendly relationship with india (i guess only chinese can do that) timed it with the cuban crisis and unilaterally declared ceasefire when the cuban crisis ended. india was caught unawares as its politicians trusted their chinese counterparts and by the time the army was mobilised from the pakistani side, the chinese declared ceasefire, and india would have had to declare war against china inorder to regain the frozen desert it lost to china. india in its history has never first attacked any country.
the biggest weakness india has is its democracy coupled with weak political leadership. politicians in india try to enrich themselves at the cost of thepeople, which i personally think is the opposite of what happens in singapore.
please do not talk about these things with arrogance as this could easily happen to any country, and the least expected it is, the more the damage it inflicts.
the crisis in mumbai could have been handled better. i would not ever blame the soldiers involved, they were doing their duty the best they can. i would blame the politicians of the country.
in terms of the operations, one should before talking all the stuff that people did before, check the facts. the israeli hostages were killed execution style long before the operation started with a bullet in their heads, their hands and feet were bound.
the building in which the fire fight occured is cramed between 3 other such buildings (dont think HDB, it is so much more cramped given the bribery in bldg permits) together there were around a 1000 people in those buildings, with all the operations going on, but the only dead were the israeli's who were killed before the operations started. i would think results speak better than photos, i agree that the position of the commando in the picture posted above is not too professional or even safe, but the focus of the training of a voluntary army and a conscript force is different. one also does not know the actual field conditions to make judgements.
in the hotels the operation was not a bang bang bang, indeed if you listened carefully in the videos, you could hear no automatic fire, it was all semi automatic at best. the commandos were knocking at each room, asking people to slip out an id, asking to open doors and step aside, entering each room, expecting to be fired upon, checking veracity of ids and if found to be genuine escorting the hostages down into a safe room, which was attacked by the terrorists twice (terrorists had the advantage of more detailed intel, as they had staked the place out well - u must go check if the SDF had complete intel and floor plans of the panpacific before the incident - it is not fair to compare as mumbai alone has close to 20 million people and is much bigger than singapore) they had to do this in close to 1000 rooms in each hotel, while suppressing fire bases of the terrorists and checking for booby traps all along. if any one thinks these terrorists are kids with guns, they are mistaken. i could clearly see, in the videos very trained men, ( i would think in the american model, check out the taped magazines) providing covering fire while moving into position, 5 steps a time each, doing a buddy.
after all that, the nation lost only 2 commandos ( of which major sandeep died saving an injured buddy not runnig away, dont know about the other one), and i think that is good. it is difficult to estimate collateral damage, but the employees of the hotel that i contacted and who were in there told me it could have been worse. now the grenade launcher - pls dont jump into conclusions. those were stun grenades, definitely not frags, you could see the impact of the launches in some of the videos, no breakage of the walls, no embedded fragments.
JI which is a ruling coalition member in bangladesh has recently announced that they would make sure that military training is provided in madrasas... so i dont think we have seen enough yet
-
Originally posted by Jlarikker:
I must say that a lot of views here are quite un-informed. a lot of it appears as if people in singapore think that this cannot happen here. i think we are all underestimating the resolve and will of these perpetrators of hatred. do not go by what u see in papers, as outside of singapore papers can pursue their own agenda.
i am Indian and i have a close understanding of the indian armed forces, which have proven time and again the ability to fight heroically and more importantly smartly with its enemies. one only has to look at the data coming out of the various exercises conducted with indian and other country armed forces, indian airforce had such a trouncing of the USAF that they indeed had to have a relook at their own capabilites and strategies (the key finding was how the pilots improvised while in combat) USAF follows rigid models. also consider data arising out of singaporean army vs indian army in its joint exercises. i am not saying one is better than the other but i am saying that the indian army is relatively respectable.
the oft repeated chinese incursion, and defeat of india at the hand of chinese, one should look at facts a bit more, china attacked india while at the same time pursuing a friendly relationship with india (i guess only chinese can do that) timed it with the cuban crisis and unilaterally declared ceasefire when the cuban crisis ended. india was caught unawares as its politicians trusted their chinese counterparts and by the time the army was mobilised from the pakistani side, the chinese declared ceasefire, and india would have had to declare war against china inorder to regain the frozen desert it lost to china. india in its history has never first attacked any country.
the biggest weakness india has is its democracy coupled with weak political leadership. politicians in india try to enrich themselves at the cost of thepeople, which i personally think is the opposite of what happens in singapore.
please do not talk about these things with arrogance as this could easily happen to any country, and the least expected it is, the more the damage it inflicts.
the crisis in mumbai could have been handled better. i would not ever blame the soldiers involved, they were doing their duty the best they can. i would blame the politicians of the country.
in terms of the operations, one should before talking all the stuff that people did before, check the facts. the israeli hostages were killed execution style long before the operation started with a bullet in their heads, their hands and feet were bound.
the building in which the fire fight occured is cramed between 3 other such buildings (dont think HDB, it is so much more cramped given the bribery in bldg permits) together there were around a 1000 people in those buildings, with all the operations going on, but the only dead were the israeli's who were killed before the operations started. i would think results speak better than photos, i agree that the position of the commando in the picture posted above is not too professional or even safe, but the focus of the training of a voluntary army and a conscript force is different. one also does not know the actual field conditions to make judgements.
in the hotels the operation was not a bang bang bang, indeed if you listened carefully in the videos, you could hear no automatic fire, it was all semi automatic at best. the commandos were knocking at each room, asking people to slip out an id, asking to open doors and step aside, entering each room, expecting to be fired upon, checking veracity of ids and if found to be genuine escorting the hostages down into a safe room, which was attacked by the terrorists twice (terrorists had the advantage of more detailed intel, as they had staked the place out well - u must go check if the SDF had complete intel and floor plans of the panpacific before the incident - it is not fair to compare as mumbai alone has close to 20 million people and is much bigger than singapore) they had to do this in close to 1000 rooms in each hotel, while suppressing fire bases of the terrorists and checking for booby traps all along. if any one thinks these terrorists are kids with guns, they are mistaken. i could clearly see, in the videos very trained men, ( i would think in the american model, check out the taped magazines) providing covering fire while moving into position, 5 steps a time each, doing a buddy.
after all that, the nation lost only 2 commandos ( of which major sandeep died saving an injured buddy not runnig away, dont know about the other one), and i think that is good. it is difficult to estimate collateral damage, but the employees of the hotel that i contacted and who were in there told me it could have been worse. now the grenade launcher - pls dont jump into conclusions. those were stun grenades, definitely not frags, you could see the impact of the launches in some of the videos, no breakage of the walls, no embedded fragments.
JI which is a ruling coalition member in bangladesh has recently announced that they would make sure that military training is provided in madrasas... so i dont think we have seen enough yet
your point is???
Anyway from what you just said, this was mainly due to weak political leadership. Yes it was but in such a situation, the commandos were in charge and they could have done better. My point is, the commados fought bravely, but with a little hindsight, there could have been less bloodshed
-
my point is the one i started with, that too many people jump into fast conclusions without much basis. while partaim of the write up was to say that the army is professional, the main aim was to say that the blood shed could have been enormous. we all talk about the toll being too high.
lets say that we dont know the number of people saved, lets guess, 1000 rooms, at 85-90% occupancy ( i guess it only could have been more in mumbai - i have been unable to find rooms there many times, especially given that the club floors of the taj was at 600 -650 USD a night and the oberoi was 400 USD a night when i last stayed in a hotel there in 2007, in 08 i lived in the city.) lets say 875 people in the rooms, 5-7 restaurants in all with close to say 400 tables (indian dinner timing, so probably full - call it 1000 people), 5 banquet halls in the taj, and 2 in the oberoi say a conservative estimate of 1000 people in those, so in all i would count in 2875 guests, lets say 100 staff, all together circa 3000 people just in the hotels, leave aside people visitng friends and hanging around in the pubs, meetings in the meeting halls and business centers etc. 500 people are expected to have died in all, of which 200 died in the shooting in the train station, this was just walk in, shoot with automatic weapons and throw grenades, and run out kind of attack, during peak hours, could easily have had a 1000 - 2000 people there. close to 100 people killed in the restaurant shooting, same modus operandi, close to 50 were killed in the hospital, some 15 people were just unlucky and were shot in the roads while on their way home, close to 10 were killed in the jewish centre. so that leaves 125 people who were killed in the hotels.
i would assume that when terrorists walk in and start shootin in the hotels, while taking control, some people might have died, unless they only shot in the air, and i would think many people could be hit in a restaurant, if caught unawares, if there is a guy going at it with an AK 47, or a frag grenade.
so i would still say that the collateral damage was quite low, and i think in the conditions this was done it was a substantial achievement than otherwise on the part of the soldiers who did the job who did this with no intelligence and a nearly failed civilian machinery.
there are some comments on smartness etc on this thread that does not leave a good taste in the mouth and are probably too much of arm chair generalism without any clue on facts !!
-
the other pimple in this discussion is the lack of understanding of issues.
many comments on allowing israeli special forces to come in. have you ever thought what that would lead to.
how would indian muslims feel after that, especially with all the effort being done by interested parties to subvert them.
what would be the reaction of pakistan and what would be the moral high ground of india.
politics is real in india.
-
No night vision goggles when storming in pitch dark conditions, what can i say man.
-
Originally posted by Jlarikker:
I must say that a lot of views here are quite un-informed. a lot of it appears as if people in singapore think that this cannot happen here. i think we are all underestimating the resolve and will of these perpetrators of hatred. do not go by what u see in papers, as outside of singapore papers can pursue their own agenda.
i am Indian and i have a close understanding of the indian armed forces, which have proven time and again the ability to fight heroically and more importantly smartly with its enemies. one only has to look at the data coming out of the various exercises conducted with indian and other country armed forces, indian airforce had such a trouncing of the USAF that they indeed had to have a relook at their own capabilites and strategies (the key finding was how the pilots improvised while in combat) USAF follows rigid models. also consider data arising out of singaporean army vs indian army in its joint exercises. i am not saying one is better than the other but i am saying that the indian army is relatively respectable.
the oft repeated chinese incursion, and defeat of india at the hand of chinese, one should look at facts a bit more, china attacked india while at the same time pursuing a friendly relationship with india (i guess only chinese can do that) timed it with the cuban crisis and unilaterally declared ceasefire when the cuban crisis ended. india was caught unawares as its politicians trusted their chinese counterparts and by the time the army was mobilised from the pakistani side, the chinese declared ceasefire, and india would have had to declare war against china inorder to regain the frozen desert it lost to china. india in its history has never first attacked any country.
the biggest weakness india has is its democracy coupled with weak political leadership. politicians in india try to enrich themselves at the cost of thepeople, which i personally think is the opposite of what happens in singapore.
please do not talk about these things with arrogance as this could easily happen to any country, and the least expected it is, the more the damage it inflicts.
the crisis in mumbai could have been handled better. i would not ever blame the soldiers involved, they were doing their duty the best they can. i would blame the politicians of the country.
in terms of the operations, one should before talking all the stuff that people did before, check the facts. the israeli hostages were killed execution style long before the operation started with a bullet in their heads, their hands and feet were bound.
the building in which the fire fight occured is cramed between 3 other such buildings (dont think HDB, it is so much more cramped given the bribery in bldg permits) together there were around a 1000 people in those buildings, with all the operations going on, but the only dead were the israeli's who were killed before the operations started. i would think results speak better than photos, i agree that the position of the commando in the picture posted above is not too professional or even safe, but the focus of the training of a voluntary army and a conscript force is different. one also does not know the actual field conditions to make judgements.
in the hotels the operation was not a bang bang bang, indeed if you listened carefully in the videos, you could hear no automatic fire, it was all semi automatic at best. the commandos were knocking at each room, asking people to slip out an id, asking to open doors and step aside, entering each room, expecting to be fired upon, checking veracity of ids and if found to be genuine escorting the hostages down into a safe room, which was attacked by the terrorists twice (terrorists had the advantage of more detailed intel, as they had staked the place out well - u must go check if the SDF had complete intel and floor plans of the panpacific before the incident - it is not fair to compare as mumbai alone has close to 20 million people and is much bigger than singapore) they had to do this in close to 1000 rooms in each hotel, while suppressing fire bases of the terrorists and checking for booby traps all along. if any one thinks these terrorists are kids with guns, they are mistaken. i could clearly see, in the videos very trained men, ( i would think in the american model, check out the taped magazines) providing covering fire while moving into position, 5 steps a time each, doing a buddy.
after all that, the nation lost only 2 commandos ( of which major sandeep died saving an injured buddy not runnig away, dont know about the other one), and i think that is good. it is difficult to estimate collateral damage, but the employees of the hotel that i contacted and who were in there told me it could have been worse. now the grenade launcher - pls dont jump into conclusions. those were stun grenades, definitely not frags, you could see the impact of the launches in some of the videos, no breakage of the walls, no embedded fragments.
JI which is a ruling coalition member in bangladesh has recently announced that they would make sure that military training is provided in madrasas... so i dont think we have seen enough yet
I see that you're really scratching your own balls here, but then, since you said that you're an indian national, I guess that's only understandable ? ...
and thought I cannot imagine how a discussion on how India screwed up in mumbai can get sidetracked into a discourse on the sino-indian war, in anycase, the fact remains that the Indians got trounced badly in that war too, which, of course, you have "neglected" to point out ...
but I digress ....
let's talk about what you've said, I get a sense that despite all the wordy passages, you really do not have much of an idea what you're talking about really. let's take a lookee here for example ...
"i agree that the position of the commando in the picture posted above is not too professional or even safe, but the focus of the training of a voluntary army and a conscript force is different."
that sounds like gibberish to me, you're saying that the "commandos" were conscripts ? ... you agree that they were NOT professional ? or that there's one way to hold a weapon for conscripts, and another way to hold a weapon for volunteers ? ... To me, and I guess to most trained soldiers, there's only a right way, or a wrong way to hold and fire a weapon ... you're saying there's an Indian army way as well ? .....
and in anycase, I guess the "teachers" from Israel have also been pointing fingers and wagging their heads ....
and, if you want to "look at the results", to quote you .... if we look at the numbers of hostages and innocents killed, the casualty numbers, compared to the number of "commandos" .... it brings to mind what I have quoted above
The slow pace of the operations made it appear that the commandos' main goal was to stay safe, Hefetz said.
for a none too professional force, they certainly knew how to avoid getting hurt ... but perhaps that's just self-preservation instincts ?
with only two killed, I guess they have sort of achieved their aim ... surprisingly, teams of just two gunmen were able to hold an "elite, trained commando force", with huge paramilitary backups, at bay for so long .... days ! ... not hours ...at several different locations
I wonder how many "commandos" it took to root out two gunman from a small place like the jewish center, nevermind a big 1000 room hotel .... how many days ? ...
I guess the "results" are really speaking for themselves, whatever you're striving to prove here .... even your goverment are agreeing that the performance had been seriously lacking ...
btw, that poor little 2 year old toddler was NOT even saved by the "commandos" as reported in some quarters, his nanny saved him when she happened upon the toddler crying for his mother, and she dashed out carrying him when she saw no gunmen around ... (and I guess no "commandos" either)
I guess we cannot blame you for thinking in your mind that your country's armed forces are the best in the world, but spare us your hubris in this thread, for it would only look empty and funny ....
-
How would Indian Muslims feel if Israeli commandos ran the show instead? I'd think they OUGHT TO feel grateful rather than bearing animosity. These guys have the experience the Indian Armed Forces have demonstrated to lack.
Back at you. The situation indeed was complicated with multiple gunmen at multiple locations, hence if the Indian government didn't know or didn't have a plan in handling it, they should have bloody asked for help, quietly if necessary. The Americans and Israelis would have been glad to assist. If it was a complicated problem, ALL THE MORE the Indian government should have sought help from the international community. The "complicated" excuse just doesn't work in justifying the Bollywood action movie setup that ensued.
And don't even talk about the about the silly dogfights you call an exercise when the Americans went to Cope India. We know the Americans sent an operational squadron there, and all the might Indian AF wanted to do was dogfight the eagle with their spanking new Flankers. Guess what happened when the mighty Indian AF went to Red Flag Nellis? They got screwed at dogfights despite all the overhyped thrust vectoring flankers, and they screwed up Blue Force by consistently shooting down friendlies.
Not that anyone blames them or laughs at them for that. Exercises are learning experiences not some chest thumping dick comparison as described ...
indian airforce had such a trouncing of the USAF that they indeed had to have a relook at their own capabilites and strategies
"Heroic" is an adjective. Yes, those soldiers did their job. But they were not up to scratch in training, nor the leadership up to scratch in planning. When they didn't have a clear idea of what to do, they should have asked for help. Screw Pride, lives were at stake. Without a doubt, the Indian Government would have won the world's applause for humility if it sought and allowed help to handle the situation. Evidently, somewhere in that leadership, the priorities were mixed up.
-
let me contribute my 5 cents worth, i dont like lengthy vebratim so ild use point form
1) Mumbai attacks were on a unprecedented scale and involved hundreds of CT operators and multiple units.
2) No one is saying IAF or Indian army or any part of the Military Apparatus is lousy or incompetent. if you observe the postings here, you'd realize that the criticism is mostly targeted at what they did in their response. their response was
i) uncoordinated
ii) Slow
iii) could have been organized much betterno one is questioning the professionalism to duty and competency of the Indian Military/Security Apparatus
the question that is really being raised here is
1) why did they turn a hostage rescue operation into a massive FIBUA ?
2) why was the organization and coordination of the response poor ?
3) were the Indian army commandos adequately prepared to handle the situation (apparently seems like a large consensus here says No)please be a little more objective and cut out the nationalism. if this were a big dick comparison, we'd get nowhere. Your postings are deliberately inflamnatory. You can be a Indian National Or a Pakistani or a muhajehideen, i dont care. But what is your purpose of raising and including SINGAPORE in the context of this discussion ?
i dont see the link. Yes, the world has lessons to learn from the Mumbai attacks but why do you want to drag singapore into the picture ? what have we done to provoke you ? Criticism cannot be applied to the NSG and the other indian commandos ? we are denied the freedom of speech (albiet conditional here in singapore) to Evaluate the aftermath of a disasterous operation that ended up with 162 lives lost ?
I feel the flak directed at the Indian Commandos in this particular thread has been uncalled for but reviewing the evidence in the aftermath of the attack seems to show an inefficient response by the Indian Military apparatus. Is it wrong to critque that ?
-
i am sorry sg stars if i appeared inflammatory. that was not the intention and drawing singapore in was because most of the people here were singaporean and i assumed that the comparison was but natural. that said, i apologize if i hurt anyones feelings.
part of the reason i was inflammed with the responses on this forum was that i am reeling a bit if i may say so, from the death of sandeep, the major who lost his life in this operation. he was in the 7th battalion of the bihar reg and i was in the 4th. he was 6 months my senior in the academy and our birthdays were 4 days apart and celebrated together. it is a bit personal if i may say so. but he did his job and he did it well.
the other part of the reason is that many comments here were completely uncalled for. the pictures of the naked commandos, the exhortion to post this in the jokes forum, the reference to the "so called elite commandos f'ing up", school girls from katong, bollywood dramas, and the issue on the rambo with the MP5 ( one should accept at times that one's own knowledge of a subject is limited)
i think it is all a matter of perspectives, if one has a view one should express them, i have nothing against that, and i would also have the same rights i suppose. but it is all good when those views are expressed within certain boundaries. a lot of writing here seems to have come from people who have served. and from them i would expect a little bit more niceity given the fact that the soldiers never fight their own wars.
-
Still remember years ago there was one guy in Singapore who just got a pistol and he got surrounded by police....if there were so many guys running around with guns like these...I wonder what will happen....
really wonder how pple in Singapore can react when such things happen...It really sends chill down my spine just by thinking about it....
_______________________________________________________________
cute my ass! -
Originally posted by 16/f/lonely:
Agreed.
The 10 guys were obviously pawns in the game.
If the 10 is them... FTW...
-
This one was captured alive. His name was something like AKKKR AKKRMAL -
Hi jlariker
Please don't sidetrack the discussion from mumbai attack to wars with china and pakistan.
If you said Indian in history never initiate any attack to other country, how about when India attack east pakitstan and make it split from Pakistan and declare independence. -
Display name...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Pakistani_War_of_1971
please read. india declared war after pakistani airforce flew sorties into indian territory to bomb agra...
please look up at the massacre pakistani army conducted on the civilian east pakistanis
PLEASE DO NOT CHANGE SUBJECT
-
i missed the comments from fatum and shotgun above when i responded only to sg stars.
i ignore fatum(you defined yourselves in your own words- Hubris) and shotgun, i respect your views.
i agree that the exercises were just that exercises and i guess i agree largely with your views on them. i just used overall results to lean my arguments on (now dont call them broken crutches
)on the other, the issue with indian muslims. you know that majority of the indian muslims are not islamist (if you understand the distinction) there are elements inside the community that is trying to radicalize it.
they would keep saying that the terrorists are jihadis fighting for islam. now if you brought israelis in, especially given the fact that they are considered enemies of islam etc, that argument becomes one of islam vs the rest, which could lead to further radicalization and the positioning of india as an anti islamic nation in their minds (this is possibly happening already for other reasons)
the indian government in your comment has two parts. the state government and national government
the state government is an elected body and is considered to be the ruler of the state, it will also control all civil defence. the national government controls the armed forces which do not get involved unless specifically invited. (these are some of the things that make democracies work, especially those withj scale)
the state police forces in india are among the worst in the world, i would say even worse than many african countries, given all the corruption and apathy. they act as a goon force intimidating the public than otherwise. mumbai has a comparatively better police force, and the terrorists eliminated the chain of command of the police force in a very short while. the head of the ATS, anti extrotion and the DCP in charge (meaning also some collusion from the inside i suppose)
the army and the police have probably never before interacted in an emergency. i agree again that a proper emergency mechanism was lacking.
the commandos came in from delhi, a long way from mumbai (there were no commandos stationed anywhere near mumbai WOW) etc
al said and done, operationally it was a tough one, and for the tactical operation at the sites, i really appreciate what the commandos did , i.e army (my old regiment) NSG commandos and MARCOS (there was no unified command - not unusual - usually the most senior officer assumes command)
i have outlined the operational details above in the previous post. under those conditions i cannot think of any better ways, other than a full assault, which would only have resulted in morelosses.