Terrorism Mumbai
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I thought of making this a new thread over that the jokes forum, but I suppose that would be spitting on the memory of the innocents that died ....
it's even scarier if you look at some of the "commando assault" videos ... sure, they know how to rope down from a chopper, but they didn't seemed to be co-ordinated at all, there's no urgency in the movements, in some parts they looked even casual and nonchalent ... commandos looking around, poking here, looking there ...
if this was a bollywood movie it would have been a comedy instead of an action thriller ... but the scary thing is, this chap in the picture here's participating in a live hostage rescue ops (at the jewish center, all remaining hostages died ... of course)
if this commando chappy represents the best of the indian security forces .........
I think the Indians need to take a long hard look at how they conduct CT ops ....
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Originally posted by Fatum:
I thought of making this a new thread over that the jokes forum, but I suppose that would be spitting on the memory of the innocents that died ....
it's even scarier if you look at some of the "commando assault" videos ... sure, they know how to rope down from a chopper, but they didn't seemed to be co-ordinated at all, there's no urgency in the movements, in some parts they looked even casual and nonchalent ... commandos looking around, poking here, looking there ...
if this was a bollywood movie it would have been a comedy instead of an action thriller ... but the scary thing is, this chap in the picture here's participating in a live hostage rescue ops (at the jewish center, all remaining hostages died ... of course)
if this commando chappy represents the best of the indian security forces .........
I think the Indians need to take a long hard look at how they conduct CT ops ....
The Indian Commandos farked it up. From what it looks like, they only had bare minimum planning down. They went in guns blazing and in full view.
If those terrorists were as well trained as Indian officials are making them out to be, they would have anticipated and ambushed them accordingly, which seems like they did. They underestimated an opponent they publicly acknowledged to be well armed and trained.
They turned a hostage rescue into FIBUA.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article5249585.ece
Terror Expert Comments on Terrorism in India.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8c2_1227741228 -
Its an opportunity for Singapore to extend cooperation in the field of anti-terrorism with India.
India can assist in providing facilities for FIBUA and counter-terrorism training for land-scarce Singapore.
India can provide a lot more manpower to focus on anti-terrorism intelligence.
Singapore can take the opportunity to improve relations with a friendly neighbour.
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If the terrorists really wanted more carnage , they could sneak in a bomber to the massive crowds gathered n boom..
Imagine that.
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Originally posted by Shotgun:
The Indian Commandos farked it up. From what it looks like, they only had bare minimum planning down. They went in guns blazing and in full view.
If those terrorists were as well trained as Indian officials are making them out to be, they would have anticipated and ambushed them accordingly, which seems like they did. They underestimated an opponent they publicly acknowledged to be well armed and trained.
They turned a hostage rescue into FIBUA.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article5249585.ece
Terror Expert Comments on Terrorism in India.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8c2_1227741228I think it's not just the so called "elite commandos" that farked up .....
The Indian authorities farked up, period.
they didn't appear to be co-ordinated at all in their response, everything was like one big gong show with journalists and bystanders elbowing each other within bullet and frag range of the on-going operations ....
it's like a farking bollywood movie set ! .... I nearly pissed myself trying not to laugh too hard when I was reading the newpaper yesterday, one chap was wounded, and his reason for being there ? in the newpapers' dry wit, "curiosity" ....
curiosity !!! ... one can imagine the scene, throngs of people crowding around intent on catching the human drama, the poor man's circus I guess ... like witnessing a traffic accident at serangoon road on a sunday .....
why was the crowd not controlled ? ... the journos not cordoned off ? ... sure, journos ducking bullets make for good soundbytes, but in an on-going operation ? ...
and of course ... we have that one commando chappy in the pic there with bollywood action hero aspirations ... he certainly shoots like one ....
let's look at that again .... this one would go down as an all time classic among anyone who've had any sort of basic military training before .... my head still reels at what this action hero was doing .... he should only be allowed guns made by mattel, not HK ....
a shining example of professionalism ? ... *snorts ....
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the bloody commandos had no freaking idea of what's going on inside the hotel. The indian authorities just wanted to end this shit quick to appease the world. As such, the commandos just chiong-ed in without little planning and intell.. instead of going down the floors one by one and annoucing to the whole world that they are in the building, couldnt they have like breached the rooms with hostages inside instead?
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The whole thing is like one grim, real-life CS game with no respawn and no reset button.
Except that the counter-terrorist forces were controlled by schoolgirls from Katong convent...
RIP to the slain hostages..
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Originally posted by Fatum:
I thought of making this a new thread over that the jokes forum, but I suppose that would be spitting on the memory of the innocents that died ....
it's even scarier if you look at some of the "commando assault" videos ... sure, they know how to rope down from a chopper, but they didn't seemed to be co-ordinated at all, there's no urgency in the movements, in some parts they looked even casual and nonchalent ... commandos looking around, poking here, looking there ...
if this was a bollywood movie it would have been a comedy instead of an action thriller ... but the scary thing is, this chap in the picture here's participating in a live hostage rescue ops (at the jewish center, all remaining hostages died ... of course)
if this commando chappy represents the best of the indian security forces .........
I think the Indians need to take a long hard look at how they conduct CT ops ....
They stormed the hotel early hour of the morning to initiate an element of surprise......
rappel from a farking noisy chopper.
It was a Godfark boolliwood drama. -
Originally posted by Shotgun:
The Indian Commandos farked it up. From what it looks like, they only had bare minimum planning down. They went in guns blazing and in full view.
If those terrorists were as well trained as Indian officials are making them out to be, they would have anticipated and ambushed them accordingly, which seems like they did. They underestimated an opponent they publicly acknowledged to be well armed and trained.
They turned a hostage rescue into FIBUA.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article5249585.ece
Terror Expert Comments on Terrorism in India.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8c2_1227741228In their haste to contain the crisis, they refused entry of the more experienced, better trained, better equipped Isreali special force.
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Israel defence officials have criticised the way Indian security forces have handled the terror attacks in Bombay, after it appeared that India turned down their offer of help to defeat the militants.
The officials, from Israel's security forces, told The Jerusalem Post that the Indian troops prematurely stormed the besieged hotels where militants were holding hostages, risking lives in the process.
Indian counter-terrorist forces were well trained but failed to gather sufficient intelligence before engaging the terrorists, they said.
"In hostage situations, the first thing the forces are supposed to do is assemble at the scene and begin collecting intelligence," said a former official in Shin Bet, the Israel Security Agency
"In this case, it appears that the forces showed up at the scene and immediately began exchanging fire with the terrorists instead of first taking control of the area," he said.
Ehud Barak, the Defence Minister, has expressed his concerns about the safety of Israelis caught up in the attack, such as those held hostage in the Jewish Centre stormed in the early hours of this morning.
Seventeen commandos abseiled onto the roof of Nariman House, while snipers peppered the building with covering fire. The two year old son of Rabbi Gavriel Noach Holtzberg, the main representative at the Jewish Centre, was rescued along with some other hostages but this morning gunshots and explosions still echoed around the building.
The security experts' criticism came as it emerged that Mr Barak had offered Mayankote Kelath Narayanan, India's National Security adviser, any assistance possible, either humanitarian or professional.
"Barak offered Israel's help in an advisory capacity and in any other way it could be of assistance, be it humanitarian or professional," it reported.
The two countries have close defence ties. India has bought more than $5 billion worth of Israeli equipment since 2002.
According to the Jerusalem Post, the two countries have already discussed an agreement for Israel's Defence Force to send its own highly trained commandos to help India in Kashmir, the Moslem majority region claimed by both India and Pakistan.
The newspaper claism that Maj.-Gen. Avi Mizrahi, the commander in chief of Israel's Ground Forces Command spent three days visiting Kashmir in September to discuss the plan.
-Times Online
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cut the Indian guys some slack.
they took losses and suffered deaths too. give credit when credit is due.
we comment because we are lucky to be on the sidelines as remotely interested spectators in this brutal sport of death called counterrorism. If roles were reversed, and our people were the ones going in, i wonder if the tone would still be the same.
Yes, they may have made mistakes and bad tactical decisions and poor overall coordination but please, spare the vitirol. these guys were called in and went in to do their duty. they did what they could.
critiquing them is fine but irresponsible words damning them for discharging their duty is entirely unfair to them.
this wasnt a simple hostage rescue with several hostages and terrorists. this was a whole hotels and multiple buidlings and with thousands trapped inside. the complexity of this whole incident is more or less unprecedented.
the AAR isnt out on this yet. they are still trying to piece together this puzzle.dont condemn what you dont know.
my condolences to the victims, respect for the troops involved in this operation and derision for the shallow minded people who mock what they fail to understand.
please remember while a hundred plus people died, thousands more made it out alive as a result of these troopers going into action.
honor them for it. not mock them.
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true, they took some loses, and did what they could ....
but look at this champion hamming it up with an MP5 shooting it one handed, with a goofy grin on his face ....
with live hostages known to be inside, that's bordering on the criminal ...
I'm sorry, I cannot accord much sympathy nor respect towards the indian security forces at this point ... not when a fellow singaporean, and so many innocents died ...
one can argue that things are always clearer on hindsight of course ... or that things would not have been much different if a more professional force, like the SAS or Sayeret Matkal were in charge, but look at this chap again ....
he clearly belongs to bollywood, not a counter terror team ...
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Originally posted by Fatum:
true, they took some loses, and did what they could ....
but look at this champion hamming it up with an MP5 shooting it one handed, with a goofy grin on his face ....
with live hostages known to be inside, that's bordering on the criminal ...
I'm sorry, I cannot accord much sympathy nor respect towards the indian security forces at this point ... not when a fellow singaporean, and so many innocents died ...
one can argue that things are always clearer on hindsight of course ... or that things would not have been much different if a more professional force, like the SAS or Sayeret Matkal were in charge, but look at this chap again ....
he clearly belongs to bollywood, not a counter terror team ...
SAS made a boo-boo while storming of the iranian embassy in the 80s during margret tatcher's helm at PM. they had one guy entagled in his own rappeling rope.
honestly i m not here to point fingers and push blame.or question competency. maybe you'd like to be in the same situation? its not something enviable
-gunbattles from wed night to friday morning.
-press hounding.
-thousands of hostages
-terrorists/militants executing hostages.
-multiple locations
-loss of key personnel : police anti-terror chief
- multiple agencies working with different doctrines and tactics.
at least they made an effort to act fast and save lives. given the complexity of it, im pretty amazed they pulled it off.
pictures dont present the context. You look at the pictures of SAF soldiers bumming around training shed or sleeping, does it mean we are incompetent ? you look at the latest SAF army commercial with the allusions to spartans does that mean we are all spartans ?
the picture does not explicitly show him firing. but they might have used excessive firepower. there are pictures of them using an AGL to shoot grenades (could be the normal or AB kind, not sure)
lets not be too hasty to comment and pass judgement. you are letting your feelings cloud your judgement.
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fine ... perhaps so ...
but the commentaries from informed sources are already emerging ... and the praises are rather short in coming as we can see ....
note that his finger was on the trigger ...
and the full caption reads .....
"A commando fired at suspected terrorists at the Nariman House."
http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2008/11/28/world/asia/20081128MUMBAI_4.html
it doesn't take much at all to tell what's wrong with what this chap's doing ... think back to your NS, and tell me about it ...
perhaps it wouldn't have made a difference for our fellow country(wo)man .... but I strongly believe that if more competence were shown in the planning and conduct of the operations, down to our friend here with his mp5, then the butcher's bill would not have been that high ....
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from the look of that ah neh holdin the mp5, he was like on shooting spree. he is not rambo, can hold gpmg and shoot with one hand. chance are that mp5 will have uncontrol shots and hit hostages too
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Originally posted by Fatum:
fine ... perhaps so ...
but the commentaries from informed sources are already emerging ... and the praises are rather short in coming as we can see ....
note that his finger was on the trigger ...
and the full caption reads .....
"A commando fired at suspected terrorists at the Nariman House."
http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2008/11/28/world/asia/20081128MUMBAI_4.html
it doesn't take much at all to tell what's wrong with what this chap's doing ... think back to your NS, and tell me about it ...
perhaps it wouldn't have made a difference for our fellow country(wo)man .... but I strongly believe that if more competence were shown in the planning and conduct of the operations, down to our friend here with his mp5, then the butcher's bill would not have been that high ....
no problems bro,
What i m trying to say is, have a little balance here. i dont disagree with you that it might have been due to incompetency or sheer stupidity on their part.
but look at the larger picture too. there are many mitigating factors that need to be considered.
Media ? they have an agenda here, whatever sells for them is good to them. the Media tends to be sensationalist in this aspect so the "commentaries" they carry might be biased to a certain degree. useful yes. objectivity compromised.
looking back to the only precedent we had, if you can recall, we were criticized for allowing commandos to storm the SQ 117 when it turned out that the pakistani terrorists were armed with butter knives. Excessive use of force ? maybe. but depends on really what criteria you use to consider.
whos to say how much is right , too much or too little ? Loss of lives or even greater casualties ?
i m not trying to defend them. its just that this whole thing is being turned into a media circus.
damned if they shoot, damned if they dont. damned if they kill, damned if they are killed.
Im not disagreeing with you when they might have used excessive force or the whole operation was not planned properly. in fact, i think bringing out a AGL is criminal stupidity. even if its airbursting munitions, it shows a complete lack of concern for human life in their doctrine. but can we blame them if we were to consider facts like they were under pressure to quickly retake the building and suppress the terrorists ?
see the point i m getting at ? try taking a step back and appreciate the bigger picture.
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I dont doubt the professionalism of the NSG guy shooting gangsta style...
think he was trying to improvise a shooting position at a target that was over a wall...
perhaps he knows better.
But one thing for sure, the way their conducted the CT ops, i think raised more questions than answers... =/
Lets not forget, the terrorists were really well trained. even had trigger discipline.
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Originally posted by sgstars:
no problems bro,
What i m trying to say is, have a little balance here. i dont disagree with you that it might have been due to incompetency or sheer stupidity on their part.
but look at the larger picture too. there are many mitigating factors that need to be considered.
Media ? they have an agenda here, whatever sells for them is good to them. the Media tends to be sensationalist in this aspect so the "commentaries" they carry might be biased to a certain degree. useful yes. objectivity compromised.
looking back to the only precedent we had, if you can recall, we were criticized for allowing commandos to storm the SQ 117 when it turned out that the pakistani terrorists were armed with butter knives. Excessive use of force ? maybe. but depends on really what criteria you use to consider.
whos to say how much is right , too much or too little ? Loss of lives or even greater casualties ?
i m not trying to defend them. its just that this whole thing is being turned into a media circus.
damned if they shoot, damned if they dont. damned if they kill, damned if they are killed.
Im not disagreeing with you when they might have used excessive force or the whole operation was not planned properly. in fact, i think bringing out a AGL is criminal stupidity. even if its airbursting munitions, it shows a complete lack of concern for human life in their doctrine. but can we blame them if we were to consider facts like they were under pressure to quickly retake the building and suppress the terrorists ?
see the point i m getting at ? try taking a step back and appreciate the bigger picture.
I don't really get your point, especially since you do agree with me that the operations were badly planned, and that the security forces showed a disregard for human lives .....
the bigger picture is that the indian authorities failed to see the bigger picture ... no coordination, no crowd control, allowing the media circus to run amock, officials letting slip classified info like the number of CT troops deployed for a chance to grin in front of the camera ...
and to see what's wrong with our action hero with an MP5, one doesn't really have to be a trained CT trooper, or barely a trained infantryman, just a bit of common sense would do ...
and really, in which hostage situation were the authorities NOT under pressure to quickly resolve the situation and suppress the terrorists ? ... I do not think that is a passable excuse for the fiasco that the world has witnessed, even in hindsight.
and you watch too ... in the coming days there's be more and more of scathing commentaries coming out everywhere ...
at the very least I guess our own chaps got a darn good lesson in what NOT to do if something similar happens ...
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That "Pro" in the picture had his finger on the trigger. If he was not planning to shoot, he'd better NOT have his finger on the trigger.
A few simple rules really.
You can't shoot what you can't see. You don't point at what you don't plan on shooting. This guy had no idea what he was looking at, and was trying to shoot something he couldn't really see.
It pretty much throws professionalism out for the Indians in CT operations.
Enough of the chest thumping "brave" indian soldiers already. They were following orders. IF they refused to follow orders, it would have been outright mutiny. The bulk of the blame lies in their leadership and command for failing to plan. Fail to plan, plan to fail.
I suspect the Mumbai precedent will be studied for quite some time. How to regain control of a city block with proper cordon, and coordinate with hostage rescue action. If they wanted to storm the building, they should have covertly moved people into position in the cover of darkness and gave them Santa's bag of Flashbangs and Stun grenades. Those guys were filming an action movie by position and assaulting as a single phase, in full view of press and observation. Any enemy inside in a HOTEL with a TV set could watch and anticipate the assault on TV.
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Guys, i think this level of attack targetted againts Indian SF, on this forum is unfounded. They had a job to do and they did it well. Unfortunatly most of those tragic souls who died where shot at even before any forces where on the scene.
Whats the point of negioting when the terrorists had no intention of doing so?
For those on this forum to say the Indian soilder lack professionalism, may i remind them that Marcos and NSGs are hand picked soilders who are then sent to Isreal for SFX training in urbain anti terror ops, they are the best of the best. The gun handling techniques you guys are mocking, are widly used in Russian and Isreali SPXs.
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i think this type of situation was not planned for, it was clear that this incident caught the central and local govt by surprise. I am not sure how they established their counter terrorist unit across india. They might place their 1st tier in the Capital. We don't know how they established their command n control. is it decentralized vs centralized especially bare in mind india is such a big country, ethnically diverse.
These terrorists shoot racklessly. They can be easily blend in to local population if they wanted but they choose not to. So in a time compressed decision and a choas situation they did what they do to adapt to this attack.
talk about decision and i don;t mean to mock but look at how we try to catch our allege terrorist.
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Originally posted by Fatum:
I don't really get your point, especially since you do agree with me that the operations were badly planned, and that the security forces showed a disregard for human lives .....
the bigger picture is that the indian authorities failed to see the bigger picture ... no coordination, no crowd control, allowing the media circus to run amock, officials letting slip classified info like the number of CT troops deployed for a chance to grin in front of the camera ...
and to see what's wrong with our action hero with an MP5, one doesn't really have to be a trained CT trooper, or barely a trained infantryman, just a bit of common sense would do ...
and really, in which hostage situation were the authorities NOT under pressure to quickly resolve the situation and suppress the terrorists ? ... I do not think that is a passable excuse for the fiasco that the world has witnessed, even in hindsight.
and you watch too ... in the coming days there's be more and more of scathing commentaries coming out everywhere ...
at the very least I guess our own chaps got a darn good lesson in what NOT to do if something similar happens ...
i raised the points of them using overexcessive firepower and possible bad planning to show i agree with you to a Limited extent. not fully. not entirely. they are valid points, but when you appreciate the much larger picture, you'd find them somewhat understandable (i m not saying rationale but at least easier to emphatize with)
i tempered it with a understanding of the duration of the operations, the conditions they were in. Im not trying to defend them, but i believe that they honestly did what they did to the best of their abilities under the following circumstances
36 hours ++ combat situation:
from wed night to friday morning. maybe more, maybe less. flimsy excuse ? maybe, but definitely a factor to consider when evaluating their performance.
disorganized /lack of clear leadership and planning :
when you had the mumbai anti terror police chief taken out within the first 12 hours of action, how the heck you have anyone left to coordinate and know the local situation well enough?
the scale and scope of this incident was unprecedented as well. you had several incidents all over the place, the mumbai Bus depot, the Taj majal hotel, the obereon, the jewish centre. imagine the complexities in organizing logistics and focusing on the target ?
AFAIK at the moment it seems like they split the clearing of individual area to individual spec ops groups. army took taj mahal hotel, navy took the obereon. jewish centre i m not sure. fault may lie with the individual CT teams/Special forces groupscowboy/action hero mp5 guy :
i m not going to defend him. but extrapolating from this one guy's idiocity means they are all incompetent jackasses ?
if we go by that line of logic, by virtue of lionnoisy being here would mean all singaporeans are like him too? not true right ?
Multiple agencies/bureacracies :
look at US operations in iraq. even after a good 15-20 years of "joint-ops" they still get screw ups and coordination problems. throw a bunch of CT teams from the navy and army (IAF i m not certain did they participate) into the fray of action and expect them to perform immediatly ?
quite unnrealisitc right ? point here is, they had bad coordination, yes. but how much of this is due to the fact that they are operating along individual service lines instead of professional competency ?
conclusion
I m not trying to prove a point that they were incompetent/not well prepared. but rather, see how media reporting is shaping your thoughts and ideas. think it out. given the context, had they attempted negotiations, or delayed action. this could have ended up with thousands massacared rather than 172 dead.
its normal and perfectly understandable human reaction to lash out against a presumed scapegoat/ responsible party in any accident/mishap/incident.
I just try to introduce a element of balance into the whole matter.
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Originally posted by Bison24:
Guys, i think this level of attack targetted againts Indian SF, on this forum is unfounded. They had a job to do and they did it well. Unfortunatly most of those tragic souls who died where shot at even before any forces where on the scene.
Whats the point of negioting when the terrorists had no intention of doing so?
For those on this forum to say the Indian soilder lack professionalism, may i remind them that Marcos and NSGs are hand picked soilders who are then sent to Isreal for SFX training in urbain anti terror ops, they are the best of the best. The gun handling techniques you guys are mocking, are widly used in Russian and Isreali SPXs.
we are not talking about the failure to negotiate here, we are talking about the conduct of the operations AGAINST the terrorists ...
and I don't know what kind of pictures or videos you've been seeing, sport, but I find it very very very very hard to believe that russian or israeli CT spec ops would teach you to shoot without aiming, without being able to see where you're shooting at, in a live hostage situation, where the consequences of unaimed rounds connecting with a hostage is very real, and best of all in such an unstable shooting posture. did you get people confused with airsofters ?
and if they were israeli trained ... then I suppose they weren't very good students ... as you can see from the timesonline link posted above ... the israeli themselves are shaking their heads at the indians too ...
shooting a one handed mini uzi with the gun AIMED in front of you is not the same as putting it over your head and spraying blind, sport, please don't tarnish the israeli's reputation here.
how about you use your common sense and think it through yourself ? ... don't even have to apply your NS infantry based experience too, really.
The indians, like the chinese, like to make a great deal about how great they are ... but I think in this case, they've been put to the crunch and have been found quite wanting ....