Fingolfin_Noldor

29 Jan 09, 16:07

Originally posted by slim10:

Not same role as JSTAR. Different radar needed (ground radar). SAR with GMTI. JSTAR is outdated with the rise of UAVs which duplicate the capability (though not as powerful). SAR images are a lot more fine than air search radar and distinguish ground clutter a lot better.

The X-Band radar on the Phalcon is supposedly aimed at the ground as well as part of the 360 degree coverage if I am not wrong for ground surveillance.

And no UAV currently carries a similarly powerful radar, though they are doing trials on a Global hawk which uses a new MP-TRIP radar based off the MESA. Later, they plan to put scaled version of the radar onto JSTARS.

slim10

29 Jan 09, 17:23

Anyone can point a radar at the ground.

The phalcon radar is designed to detect air targets (probably from very low altitude up) but not ground targets.

Its a speed issue. Standard air radars auto deduct items which move below a certain speed otherwise alarm rate will be artificially high (eg birds). That's why no ground target capability. SAR imaging allows better ID but don't ask me how GMTI works.

RSAF hermes 450 is credited with the below EL/2055M. Same thing with UK's Watchkeeper. GH's SAR is far more effective (and has to be due to altitude for operation)

http://www.misile-iai.com/sip_storage/files/6/34036.pdf

http://www.el-op.com/files/PDF/Payloads/UN_UAVComp(Web).pdf

Its powerful enough for SG ops. Wide area search at 10000km2/hr (or 100km x 100km). Examples of SAR images in the brochure.

IAF uses the MARS platform for SAR. G550 doesn't have that capability (would need a separate radar eg 2055 or 2060 installed.). Haven't seen a source that credited G550 CAEW with sar capability yet.

GH uses HISAR.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Hawk

Agreed, power is much less than JSTARs but nevertheless, JSTARs is overkill in SG context. Breath of Johor is ~100km. 1-2 Hermes can cover the entire area.

Fingolfin_Noldor

29 Jan 09, 21:56

Gah.. spotty memory. Phalcon uses S and L band.

I don't think it's a speed issue. JSTARS is 707 aircraft. Flies at a similar speed to the G550. Probably the issue of volume.

slim10

29 Jan 09, 22:05

Its not plane speed. Its target speed. Also got reminded of the issue of ground clutter which explains why it works over sea but not land.

Phalcon is dual band (S & L).

http://www.iai.co.il/sip_storage/files/7/35467.pdf

sgstars

29 Jan 09, 22:27

hmm, can i ask what do S and L band radars do ? how are they different ?

slim10

29 Jan 09, 22:36

Radio frequencies. Just like 98.7 and 90.5. Just that these are at 2-4 GHZ and 1-2 GHZ (S and L).

Wavelength work differently at differing frequencies.

This link probably gives a quick and simple explanation...

http://www.geocities.com/jasonlemons/radar/topic2.htm

Fingolfin_Noldor

29 Jan 09, 22:47

Originally posted by sgstars:

hmm, can i ask what do S and L band radars do ? how are they different ?

Actually, I know one guy on the internet who wrote up a very nice write up on IADS. Take a look here:

http://www.tboverse.us/HPCAFORUM/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=118

Google "Stuart Slade" and you turn up some stuff he wrote on the internet. By no means is this guy some amateur bluff.

Fingolfin_Noldor

29 Jan 09, 22:53

Originally posted by slim10:

Its not plane speed. Its target speed. Also got reminded of the issue of ground clutter which explains why it works over sea but not land.

Eh? Why is target speed an issue here? My take is that it is a software issue. JSTARS is pretty software intensive, and it's indicative by the fact they used a huge aircraft to mount not just the huge radar, but lots of processing equipment.

Shotgun

29 Jan 09, 23:41

Originally posted by sgstars:

i dont know if anyone has ever speculated this before, but any chance you think that the G550s are actually for elint/comint/sigint or maybe dedicated SEMA platforms while the E2Cs will perform as dedicated AWACS as an interim solution till the F35?

with NCW and huge expected data flows, our G550s may become flying exchange servers, linking our flyboys to our formidables , to the tankies , the grunts and the arty boyz while the E2Cs serve as genuine airborne controllers. the black raven is pretty old anyway isnt it ? last airframe built of its kind.

afterall, our F15 strike eagles and their AESA radars might have some capability to function as a mini awacs. we using them with WSOs anyway right ? not inconcievable that the F15 wso detects inbound bandits, uses link 16 to talk to other F15s and F16s in the air force and vector them in to launch AMRAAMs.

i'd be the first on the line to admit i know very little about AWACs. but i dont think we should place blind faith in a single platform and accept whatever we got/acquired. plenty of questions out there that remain to be asked and answered.

Don't overrate the AESA radars on the F-15s or F-35s lar. At the end of the day, the nose radar is still limited to a 60-70 degree azimuth off each side. Thats far from sufficient in terms of "Mini-awacs" capabilities.

The ability to scan 360 degree over long distances, identify and track multiple airborne contacts is still what separates real AEW&C from wannabes. In fact, I don't even know what this "mini-awacs" function that so many manufacturers boast about entails exactly. If its sorting and tracking contacts, sharing that information via datalink, even the F-16s can do that.

If we are gonna task F-15s or F-35s to fly in circles around in order to "Act" as a mini-awacs, we might as well stick to the E-2C.

Also, Link 16 is a lil more complex than what we percieve it to be. Not every aircraft in the air force recieves target information from every other aircraft, with exception of the AEW&C aircraft. It would be information overload if I start seeing and recieving everything thats in the air or on the ground being targeted by friendly aircraft. Refer to the TADIL-J pdf file on wiki entry on the Link 16.

As to whether our G550 Phalcon system is really the best out there, well, its still subject to debate by industry experts who know more than we do. However, one doesn't have faith in his own equipment, no matter how good it is, he won't be able to fight/do well with it.

As an AEW&C, the Phalcon's airborne detection capability is definitely there. I think we would not have selected it as our E-2C replacement if it wasn't.

slim10

30 Jan 09, 09:17

Target speed is an issue due to false alarm rate. The last thing a radar operator wants is to get lots of contacts and find out the contacts are birds, etc. Hence, air search radars normally have minimum target speeds built into the system to reduce false alarm rates.

That's probably partly why SAR better for ground. It uses contour mapping which doesn't move much to create a map and small items eg birds can get elim in a different manner but larger items eg vehicles get reflected.

A couple of links to explain how GMTI works/evolved.

http://www.mc.com/industries/subsubindustry.aspx?id=6960

http://www.analysiscenter.northropgrumman.com/files/gmti.pdf

slim10

2 Feb 09, 11:37

Assuming radar power is the same, this link provides a simple calculator for the range difference as a result of the higher altitude of the G550 (~10%) and the impact of earth curvature. The calculator's not accurate but provides a simple rough example.

http://radarproblems.com/calculators/horizon.htm

As an example,

AWACs at 41000 ft
Target at ground level
radar horizon 461km
visual horizon 400km

AWACs at 51000 ft
Target at ground level
radar horizon 514km
visual horizon 445km

lionnoisy

16 Feb 09, 10:23

$3.8bn early warning system 'failing'

More Defence

''Senior defence sources say the problems with the radar go beyond simple target identification and software integration issues to the basic performance and geometry of the system, which sits on top of the 737's fuselage.

The Lincoln Laboratory(lion note --of MIT) assessment is due to be completed by the end of March and will be followed by flight testing over northern Australia in May.

Lincoln is a US government-funded research and development lab that works on cutting edge defence technologies, such as ballistic missile defence.

Subject to further tests later this year, Boeing expects to deliver an initial 737 aircraft to the RAAF for training tasks in November with the first two planes achieving full capability by March next year.

Parliamentary secretary for defence procurement Greg Combet said last night there was still a "long way to go and many hurdles to overcome" with Wedgetail's radar and integrated system performance.

"The Wedgetail early warning and control aircraft are, by their very nature, extremely complex, given the range of cutting-edge radar technology and sensors that will be incorporated into each aircraft," Mr Combet told The Weekend Australian.''

slim10

20 Feb 09, 10:59

Pic released by SAF shows s/no 016. Looks like the 4 G550s will have serials 016-019.

CAEW in SG - 19 Feb 2009.

http://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/home.html

slim10

26 Feb 09, 09:12

Delivery of 1st wedgetail only in Nov 2009 and only with limited capability....

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/AUS022509.xml&headline=Australia:%20Wedgetail%20to%20Perform%20as%20Specified&channel=defense

slim10

25 Apr 09, 18:39

The dreaded 'c' word has been uttered in relation to the Australian wedgetail... Highlights importance of DSTA's quiet efficiency and success in the G550 acquisition.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/04/23/325478/australias-wedgetail-begins-make-or-break-exercise.html

sgstars

26 Apr 09, 00:11

Originally posted by slim10:

The dreaded 'c' word has been uttered in relation to the Australian wedgetail... Highlights importance of DSTA's quiet efficiency and success in the G550 acquisition.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/04/23/325478/australias-wedgetail-begins-make-or-break-exercise.html

lol bro !!

dont make lionnoisy's day. he'd probably cite you and this article many many times.

regarding wedgetail, i thought its a critical piece of kit in the ADF's plan ? kinda like a "too big to fail" project like the intial collins and their teething problems.

slim10

26 Apr 09, 10:26

Originally posted by sgstars:

regarding wedgetail, i thought its a critical piece of kit in the ADF's plan ? kinda like a "too big to fail" project like the intial collins and their teething problems.

If it can't meet specs esp the radar, then no point getting an AEW that won't work. That's not a good sign that there is still doubt at this stage of the procurement process. Quite ironic since IAI was also one of the bidders offering the CAEW concept.

It must be very galling to the DMO management to see the RSAF getting their first a/c before them, despite ordering later. I would be if I was in their shoes.

Jack412

26 Apr 09, 11:21

you need to remember aussies are pioneering new tech in the wedgetail , one of which is

http://www.australiandefence.com.au/news/scaneagle-uavs-controlled-from-wedgetail

ScanEagle UAVs controlled from Wedgetail

17 Apr 2009

Boeing successfully demonstrated simultaneous command and control of three ScanEagle unmanned aircraft systems (UAS) from an RAAF Wedgetail 737 AEW&C aircraft flying over Washington State on March 16.

Using the company's UAS battle-management software, airborne operators issued ATO-standard sensor and air-vehicle commands via a UHF satellite communication link and ground-station relay.

The three ScanEagles were launched from Boeing's Boardman Test Facility in eastern Oregon, about 190km away from the airborne Wedgetail.

Jack412

26 Apr 09, 11:29

wow the coding on this site needs a tune-up, i'll try the link again and without the copy paste

[url] http://www.australiandefence.com.au/news/scaneagle-uavs-controlled-from-wedgetail [/url]

slim10

26 Apr 09, 13:19

Is that an important capability in the context of an AEW primary mission? I doubt so. UAV can also hand-off to AH-64 longbows which is a blk 3 configuration. Otherwise, UAVs will still be ground controlled and contribute to the air pic via data links.

weasel1962

27 May 09, 11:21

Wedgetail gets mixed review. Other reports will be assessed before summit in June.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/05/26/326954/wedgetail-gets-mixed-review-from-pivotal-australian.html

TERMINATOR2000

27 May 09, 12:35

WHY U WANT A WEDGETAIL OR A GULF STREAM ?

WHAT U NEED ARE CHEAP LONG RANGE ROBOTS WHO CAN THINK N FLY .BUYING A $40 NUT AND BOLT DUN MAKE U EFFECTIVE IN COMBAT OR RECON MISSIONS.

HEY LION NOISY!!U ARE NOT TRAINED IN ENGINEERING FROM LOOKS OF THINGS BUT RATHER U R JUST FIGURING OUT HIGH TECH THE HARD NEWBIE WAY!MAN...FROM WAY THING S ARE GOIN WITH U AROUND,,,ITS GOIN TO BE EXPENSIVE AND TIME WASTING AS WELL!

TIME IS SOMETHING U DUN HAVE.

TERMINATOR2000

27 May 09, 12:43

WASTEFUL TO PUT MONEY INTO EARLY WARNIN DEVICES LIKE THESE!

THEY PUT THIS KINDA DEVICES JUST FER THE SAKE OF PUTTIN IT UP.

FRIEND,,,YER STOOPID MULTI MILLIOIN $ AIRCRAFT CAN BE SHOT DOWN BY A CHEAP MISSILE A FEW MINUTES AFTER DISCOVERING IT. CAN THE AIRCRAFT EVADE THEM AS WELL?

WHO SO STOOPID TO LINE UP TANKS IN FRONT OF EARLY WARNIN AIRCRAFT??

TERMINATOR2000

27 May 09, 12:53

HEY!!U ALL CRAZY OR WHAT????U THINK PILOTS LIKE TO SIT IN AN AIRCRAFT EMITTING POWERFUL RADAR WAVES THAT DAMAGES SPERM N GIVE OTHER SIDE EFFECTS !!THE SHIELDING FER RADAR CAN ONLY PROTECT U SO MUCH.

WHY DUN ALL U GO LIVE NEXT TO SOME POWERFUL RADAR OR SOMETHING SHIELDED OR UNSHIELDED??

USE THE DAMN ROBOTS NOT HUMANS!

ADF CAN FUCK A GOAT,,,R U GOIN TO DO THE SAME AS WELL??

TERMINATOR2000

27 May 09, 13:03

OK FOLKS.....THE BATTLE BEGINS:

THE BATTLE STARTS WHEN A CESSNA OR GULFSTREAM PACKED TO THE DOOR WITH RADAR EQUIPMENT FLIES OFF TO DETECT ENEMY TANKS IN A JUNGLE AREA AT 50,000 FEET WITH THE WORLDS MOST TOP SECRET POWERFUL RADAR EVER BUILT BUILT BY MANKIND!MUCH MORE EXPENSIVE THAN THE AIRCRAFT ITSELF.

IT CROSSES THE JUNGLE N NOTICES A TANK BATTALION BELOW....IT THEN SENDS BACK INFO TO BASE BUT IS INTERCEPTED BY SAM MISSILES.

THE AIRCRAFT BLOWS UP WITH THE MULTI MILLION DOLLAR RADAR AND THE GENERALS BACK AT BASE START TO SCRATCH THEIR HEADS N ASK,"WHAT HAPPEN HAR???WHY HAR??EH???ARR??RA?HAIYA!!ETC ETC"

Wedgetails delayed

ScanEagle UAVs controlled from Wedgetail