Mahatir says Sukhois can bomb singapore
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Originally posted by Flanker-X:
A F-15 can NEVER win a Su-30 in an air to air fight unless the pilot is a dumbass...because the F-15 wingframe was meant for medium range combat NOT dogfights...and the Su-30 can do both as it has Canards for close combat...but then mahatair is just dumb cant even differienate his own jets...
Dogfight?! What do you think this is, the era of Manfred von Richtofen?
Lemme guess - you go into the field ready to do a bayonet charge?
Time to stop watching Top Gun reruns and get with the modern world, m'lad.
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Originally posted by Flanker-X:
A F-15 can NEVER win a Su-30 in an air to air fight unless the pilot is a dumbass...because the F-15 wingframe was meant for medium range combat NOT dogfights...and the Su-30 can do both as it has Canards for close combat...but then mahatair is just dumb cant even differienate his own jets...
This is funny when the F-15C was designed with the expressed purpose of air superiority. It is actually a much heavier aircraft than the F-15A/B because they wanted it to carry more weapons and range. While it isn't as maneurverable as the Su-27 and its derivatives, fighter dogfighters these days are about who shoots first and not the who gets closer to each other. And the AIM-120 last I checked as pretty decent range vis a' vis against the R-77. Certainly not as great range as the Novator KS-172, but that missile was designed in mind to destroy AWACs and I'm not sure if it is agile enough to tackle a fighter.
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The Su-30's vaunted dogfight ability didn't seem to help much when it fought the F-15Cs at Nellis this year. The F-15Cs with full A2A combat load, 2 fuel tanks, out fought the Su-30's in CLEAN configuration.
Apparently, the Su-30s turning capability is more greatly hampered by its own external stores and fuel load than the F-15s. Bad load balancing, bad turning.
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Well, drag by the external stores can be quite considerable. What sort of dogfight is this? Also, do these Su-30s have the Thrust vectoring Al-41F? There's also the pilot training issue as well (and I have low regards for Indian training).
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Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:
Well, drag by the external stores can be quite considerable. What sort of dogfight is this? Also, do these Su-30s have the Thrust vectoring Al-41F? There's also the pilot training issue as well (and I have low regards for Indian training).
i think shotgun is referring to the 08 red flag.
yeap. the Su-30s had thrust vectoring apparently but thrust vectoring nozzles caused the Su-30 to be slow in turning (or so as far as i understand of it, dont quite get all the bits ) .
The F15 pilots exploited this and forced the Su-30 into a turn which caused it to lose speed and be vulnerable to attack.
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Don't know why mahathir hate singapore so much. Hope his good friend Najib is not like him.
Anyway, malaysia don't have AWACS, so it is difficult to attack singapore by air. -
Originally posted by Flanker-X:
A F-15 can NEVER win a Su-30 in an air to air fight unless the pilot is a dumbass...because the F-15 wingframe was meant for medium range combat NOT dogfights...and the Su-30 can do both as it has Canards for close combat...but then mahatair is just dumb cant even differienate his own jets...
Since when did the SU-30 ever had carnards?Edit: Last check, performance of the F-15C is still better than that of the SU-30......but then what's the point of comparing that when much fighting these days is BVR.
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Angle of attack
The Su-30MK's aerodynamic configuration is an unstable-in-longitude triplane (see relaxed stability). To increase lifting effectiveness and enhance maneuverability of the aircraft, canards are installed. They are deflected automatically to ensure controlled flight at high angles-of-attack. Canards, however, are installed only in some Su-30 variants like the Su-30MKI.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Su-30#cite_note-1
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Originally posted by sgstars:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Su-30#cite_note-1
My bad -
Originally posted by 16/f/lonely:
My badno issues. the canards are apparently only on the MKI version and possibly the MKM version (since the MKM is based on the MKI with avionics and electronics differences)
thank goodness the indons have only MKKs. anyone knows what version of the SU-30 are the vietnamese operating ?
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all pictures by dreamer73 from defence talk forums @ following link,
http://www.defencetalk.com/pictures/showgallery.php/cat/3867
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To add on, the latest variant of the SU-27, the SU-37 which is probably the interim fighter that VDV will acquire, has canards and Al-41F thrust vectoring. They probably could compensate some of the problems with more flight control computational power though. I think there ought to be a AESA radar coming up for the Su-27 soon as well.
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I wud think that dog fighting will be the last resort after
1. wiping out yr opponents air force while they are still on the ground
2. taking enemy planes out at long range using your advantage of having
AWACS , AESA equipped fighters
3. swarming the opposition in the air with superior numbers
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Originally posted by Sepecat:
I wud think that dog fighting will be the last resort after
1. wiping out yr opponents air force while they are still on the ground
2. taking enemy planes out at long range using your advantage of having
AWACS , AESA equipped fighters
3. swarming the opposition in the air with superior numbers
No. 3 is something we should try to avoid however.
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Originally posted by 16/f/lonely:
Since when did the SU-30 ever had carnards?Edit: Last check, performance of the F-15C is still better than that of the SU-30......but then what's the point of comparing that when much fighting these days is BVR.
Haha, no lar, its not really comparison. Cos at the end of the day, its not even BVR that triumphs. Theres still factors like command n control, experience, logistics, etc to consider the true potential of a first class air force.
The point about the Su-30 was not that it was not less manueverable, but that the F-15C STILL CAN compete against Su-30 in the WVR arena despite a slight manueverability advantage.
The TVC problem discussed on the youtube video of Red Flag 08 with the IAF, was really an issue of experience. Inexperience from the IAF pilots, relied too much on their TVC to go "fangs out", causing loss of lift as the aircraft now pivots around its nose or more forward CG. When that happens, the aircraft not only loses altitude (due to loss of lift), but is in an crucial energy disadvantage, where relatively high T/W ratio fighters without thrust vectoring can take advantage of.
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I wonder why both Malaysian and Singaporean hate each others? Once upon a time, you had a common history, you were in the same boat. And politically, both nation for some degree has lean to British. Both of you are FPDA member.
I'm Indonesian. If my fellow citizen hate Malaysia and Malaysian hate us, it's understandable. We never had in the same boat and until nowadays Indonesia still has a territorial dispute with Malay in Sulawesi Sea.
Well, I think war between Malaysia vs Singapore not quite possible. Even short war or skirmish. Everybody in the region will affected if that things happen.
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Originally posted by Hendrajala:
I wonder why both Malaysian and Singaporean hate each others? Once upon a time, you had a common history, you were in the same boat. And politically, both nation for some degree has lean to British. Both of you are FPDA member.
I'm Indonesian. If my fellow citizen hate Malaysia and Malaysian hate us, it's understandable. We never had in the same boat and until nowadays Indonesia still has a territorial dispute with Malay in Sulawesi Sea.
Well, I think war between Malaysia vs Singapore not quite possible. Even short war or skirmish. Everybody in the region will affected if that things happen.
Um. We don't hate each other......But then no relationship is so good that both sides can't resist some occasional bashing.
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Don't be mistaken, I don't hate Malaysia or Malaysians!
Heck, I love Malaysia! Its a nice place to visit and people generally friendlys. Its only those politicians that sometime like to pick bones with us. =D
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Firstly to clarify...my definition of canards..is that the indian Su-30MKI have canards and the malaysian MKM have them as well because the airframe is basically the MKI itself as for the what planes the vietnamese are fighting they are the Su-30MK2V which is a modified chinese MKK fighter...Personally the Su-35BM or 37 is still the best...in my opinion
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let me fix my typo its flying NOT fighting..psps
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From my personal view, it look like an arms race between Malaysian and Singapore. If Singapore buy new weapon, Malaysia will also buy such weapon. Different weapon, but on the same class. Such as F-15SG for Singapore, Malaysia then buy Su-30 MKM.
Well, Singapore is wealthier than Malaysia. How long Malaysia could take this way??? Until her economic collapse? Ha...ha...ha... I dont think so.
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Hendra,
This sounds a bit strange, but if you look at both SG and MY's orbat together, they form interesting overlaps in ability.
:D