M777 vs. Pegasus
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Pegasus 155 mm LWG is powered to change gun direction , short distant
deployment and loading ammo.M 777 crews have to do these manually!!
"This is unlike the M777, which is manually operated by six people on each side of the legs, with brute force."(1)
The 155mm Singapore Light Weight Howitzer (SLWH) Pegasus is both self-propelled and heli-portable by the CH-47D "Chinook" helicopters.(2)
Read para 2 for one more confirmation--by oz papaer!!
Also ,M 777 is not heli portable!!
I am not here to say which one is better in overall performances.
I just want to highlight to u guys,especiall Sg Ty,
that not all ST products are third class.
In some parts of some products,SG is not so far behind the best
in the world,if not exceeding them.M 777 can fire GPS guided shells.
Good.ST shall follow closely,after weighing costs and benefits!!(3)
Few comments from oz paper very interesting(4)
----the only other ‘Chinook’ air-portable gun system
in the 155mm calibre under production.---The ‘Pegasus’ is heavier than the M777 (5.4 tonnes versus
3.2 tonnes), because it is fitted with a 21kW Auxiliary Power
Unit (APU) providing hydraulic pressure to drive the wheels (at
up to 12kph), operate a powered Ammunition Loading System
(ALS), and power the deployment of the system.-----Similar in concept to the motive system that powers the
‘Mobicon’ container handler system,the ‘Pegasus’ Auxiliary
Power Unit needs to be engineered to survive the shock and
vibration of gun firing.
----The M777 achieves many of the Pegasus’ capabilities without
the cost and weight of the APU due to its designed-in ‘centre of
balance’ and recuperator system.---The M777 is balanced on its wheels in travelling configuration
so it can be easily controlled and moved. BAES have experimented
with using a simple ‘quad bike’ All Terrain Vehicle (ATV) to tow
the M777 at low speeds, thus enabling reasonable mobility after
rapid deployment by helicopter.(lion note see (5) below)----The advantage of using an All Terrain Vehicle compared to the
‘Pegasus’ APU is borne out in much lower acquisition and
sustainment costs, as the ATV can be subsequently freed up for
other operational uses, such as towing ammunition, after the
M777 is positioned.1.Moved by human beings!
The writer just pin pointed on the cost and weight of APU,
forgeting the benefits of
"operate a powered Ammunition Loading System
(ALS), and power the deployment of the system."This is a joke in the 21 st century,M 777 A2 still need
"manually operated by six people on each side of the legs, with brute force."
It take 3 mins to change the gun to opposite directions.
In some soft ground or it rains after the gun in position,
I wander the heavy gun can be moved manually.
Can u call Infantry to help?I hope Oz will not depend on this guy
to assess any weapon system.
2."ATV can be subsequently freed up for other operational uses,
such as towing ammunition, after the M777 is positioned."
What if the ammo is very far away?
@@@@@@@@@
Allow me to side track.This article tell us if u add in additional requirement,
then u can rule out few contenders for any weapons.Smart guys!!
Strike Publications
"Protected" rules out Land 17 contenders
© Abraham Gubler Vol 4-5 Mar/apr06
Download
Article--wow same guyA Defence spokesperson has confirmed that the "protected" requirement calls for a system in which the ordnance must be able to be operated with the crew under the vehicle's armour.This effectively rules out the 'gun-on-a-truck' offerings of ADI and GIAT with the Caesar; Boeing Australia and Soltam with the ATMOS; and BAE Systems with the LIMAWS(G) potee system with the Supacat HMT and M777 gun.
This would require the actual gun to weigh in between 3-6 tonnes, limiting this contest to 155mm/39 calibre systems and in particular the BAE Systems M777 and the ST Kinetics Pegasus. Pegasus is fitted with a unique APU that powers hydrostatic in-hub motors to give the 5.4 tonnegun system a limited, yet important self-propulsion. The APU can also power anammunition-loading system to increase rate of fire and reduce operator fatigue. While the M777 relies on human power for mobility and loading, theLIMAWS(G) portee system provides considerablymore mobility. With crew and ammunition the LIIMAWS(G) weighs in at 12.3 tonnes and its portee arrangement allows for flexibility in configuration for airlift.
3.Heli portable of M 777--
The M777 being transported by a US Marine Corps SuperStallion helicopter.
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/ufh/ufh2.html
4.Standard man power of M 777 is 9 men
so i cant understand why 6 men on each legs.
5. M 777 cannot be deployed by Chinook
Weight: 10,000 pounds or lighter with TAD
• Emplace: Less than three minutes
• Displace: Two to three minutes
• Maximum range: 30 km(assisted)
• Rate-of-fire: Four to eight rounds per minute maximum; two rounds per minute sustained
• Ground mobility: Family of Medium Tactical Vehicles, Medium Tactical Vehicle Replacement, five-ton trucks
• Air mobility: Two per C-130; six per C-17; 12 per C-5; CH-53D/E; CH-47D; MV-22U.S. Army Weapon Systems 2007-2008
-www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/wsh2007/168.pdf
////3.
reference
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/ufh/specs.html
http://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/publications/cyberpioneer/news/2005/October/31oct05_news.html
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/lw155.htm
Army Technology – M777A1 155m Ultralightweight Field Howitzer, United Kingdom
BAE Systems (July 25/07) – M777 Lightweight Howitzer Update Gives More Range And Accuracy. Describes the minor modifications that make up the M777A2, which will be the fielded version.
sources
1.Asiaone.com----10.11.2008 more on Defence Tech X
http://www.dsta.gov.sg/index.php/DSTA-in-the-News-Year-2008/
10 Nov 2008 More on Defence TechX 2008
Mr Teo elaborates on what makes the Pegasus special:
- Auxiliary Power Unit (APU)
It provides the gun with a short-range self-propelled capability. With the APU, the system can manoeuvre over terrain at a speed of 12 kmh. Mr Teo said: "By incorporating this power pack, we allow the Pegasus' functions to be automated. This is unlike the M777, which is manually operated by six people on each side of the legs, with brute force.' - Ammunition Loading System (ALS)
Powered by the APU, the ALS loads ammunition to alleviate crew fatigue. This allows the crew to operate the Pegasus longer with a burst rate of three rounds in 24 seconds. "It's like sticking a bomb into the barrel," Mr Teo said. - Innovative recoil management
The recoil of the Pegasus is a third lower than conventional 155mm howitzers. "That's how we reduce the overall loading on the gun structure," he explained. - Ease of deployment
The Pegasus is easy to configure. Through a simple seesaw action that shifts the gun's centre of gravity to suit different missions, it can be deployed in less than 2.5 minutes with eight men. Mr Teo said: "An M777, when fired upon, cannot move. But the Pegasus can quickly fold up and move elsewhere." - Lightweight materials
The Pegasus employs lightweight materials like titanium and high-alloy aluminium that provide the strength and stability required to withstand the recoil force. "The Pegasus looks totally unconventional. Every component is multi-tasked," said Mr Teo.
2.Singapore Light-Weight Howitzer,
3.M777, Lightweight 155mm Howitzer - Official Website for the USMC ...
4.[PDF]--
Land 17 morphs from MOTS to developmental
http://www.adbr.com.au/download/Features%20Articles/V26N6_Land17.pdf
Abraham S Gubler/CANBERRA
5. http://www.baesystems.com/ProductsServices/l_and_a_ls_m777_portee_system.html
- Auxiliary Power Unit (APU)
-
IIRC, someone did point out that the M-777 is heli portable...
I'm changing the title of the topic to something more reflective of the nature of the discussion.
It was originally "M777 manually operated by 6 pple on each leg,wit brute force"
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Originally posted by Shotgun:
IIRC, someone did point out that the M-777 is heli portable...
I'm changing the title of the topic to something more reflective of the nature of the discussion.
It was originally "M777 manually operated by 6 pple on each leg,wit brute force"
Thanks.
u are the first MOD change my thread and not just acknowledge,
but immediately.Other MODs shall take a leave from u!!
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Originally posted by lionnoisy:
Thanks.
u are the first MOD change my thread and not just acknowledge,
but immediately.Other MODs shall take a leave from u!!
try as i might, i cant figure out what you are saying.
what is the point here ? MODs learn from shotgun ? shotgun goes on leave ? other MODS borrow shotgun's leave ?
i believe the phrasing should be take leave of you. and its in the wrong context anyway. of and from not substitutable or exchangeable
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Wow, lionnoisy just made another wall of text that is next to impossible to understand.
What is the point of spending so much effort to make posts that nobody can read?
If your point is to prove that Pegasus is better then M777 to others, then you have most certainly failed in doing that for the simple reason that NO ONE CAN READ your posts.
What can I say?
Self-pwned.
-
It was originally "M777 manually operated by 6 pple on each leg,wit brute force"
I must say it is a rather funny title thou... the way the language is mangled by him...
-
Originally posted by lionnoisy:
Pegasus 155 mm LWG is powered to change gun direction , short distant
deployment and loading ammo.M 777 crews have to do these manually!!
Read para 2 for one more confirmation--by oz papaer!!
Also ,M 777 is not heli portable!!
I am not here to say which one is better in overall performances.
I just want to highlight to u guys,especiall Sg Ty,
that not all ST products are third class.
In some parts of some products,SG is not so far behind the best
in the world,if not exceeding them.M 777 can fire GPS guided shells.
Good.ST shall follow closely,after weighing costs and benefits!!(3)
Few comments from oz paper very interesting(4)
1.Moved by human beings!
The writer just pin pointed on the cost and weight of APU,
forgeting the benefits of
"operate a powered Ammunition Loading System
(ALS), and power the deployment of the system."This is a joke in the 21 st century,M 777 A2 still need
"manually operated by six people on each side of the legs, with brute force."
It take 3 mins to change the gun to opposite directions.
In some soft ground or it rains after the gun in position,
I wander the heavy gun can be moved manually.
Can u call Infantry to help?I hope Oz will not depend on this guy
to assess any weapon system.
2."ATV can be subsequently freed up for other operational uses,
such as towing ammunition, after the M777 is positioned."
What if the ammo is very far away?
@@@@@@@@@
Allow me to side track.This article tell us if u add in additional requirement,
then u can rule out few contenders for any weapons.Smart guys!!
Strike Publications
"Protected" rules out Land 17 contenders
© Abraham Gubler Vol 4-5 Mar/apr06 Download Article--wow same guy3.Heli portable of M 777--
The M777 being transported by a US Marine Corps SuperStallion helicopter.
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/ufh/ufh2.html
4.Standard man power of M 777 is 9 men
so i cant understand why 6 men on each legs.
5. M 777 cannot be deployed by Chinook
U.S. Army Weapon Systems 2007-2008
-www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/wsh2007/168.pdf
////3.
reference
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/ufh/specs.html
http://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/publications/cyberpioneer/news/2005/October/31oct05_news.html
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/lw155.htm
Army Technology – M777A1 155m Ultralightweight Field Howitzer, United Kingdom
BAE Systems (July 25/07) – M777 Lightweight Howitzer Update Gives More Range And Accuracy. Describes the minor modifications that make up the M777A2, which will be the fielded version.
sources
1.Asiaone.com----10.11.2008 more on Defence Tech X
http://www.dsta.gov.sg/index.php/DSTA-in-the-News-Year-2008/
10 Nov 2008 More on Defence TechX 2008
2.Singapore Light-Weight Howitzer,
3.M777, Lightweight 155mm Howitzer - Official Website for the USMC ...
4.[PDF]--
Land 17 morphs from MOTS to developmental
http://www.adbr.com.au/download/Features%20Articles/V26N6_Land17.pdf
Abraham S Gubler/CANBERRA
5. http://www.baesystems.com/ProductsServices/l_and_a_ls_m777_portee_system.html
lionnoisy's thread needs some translation:
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What if the ammo is very far away?
Last we checked, Pegasus does NOT carry it's own ammunition load as well. This issue affects the Pegasus as much, so basically you are talking rubbish.
And in any case a speed of 12kph self-propelled is NOT enough to do shoot and shoot, you'll still be well within the killbox of counterbattery at that speed. If you factor in things like rough terrain and cross-country, you're far better off towed by something more powerful.
Most of the time the Pegasus' APU is deadweight.
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Hmmm... I sense some major lionnoisy pwning coming up...
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5. M 777 cannot be deployed by Chinook
M777 being deployed by Chinook
...
LOL
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... i cant understand why 6 men on each legs.
that's because you don't know how to take pictures in context... is this an example of typical M777 operation or something else?
Wait let me show you another picture:
are you going to say "i tot SAF requirements is that after 16 then serve NS
so i cant understand why kid now is GPMG gunner?"
LOL plz
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mark II. feel free to edit it at your own pleasure
-
LOL
This is much improved....
Shall we nominate lionnoisy for future PM of Singapore? Since he so entu about Singapore....
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i suggest we vote him as clown of the year or Unpersonality of the forum.
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Originally posted by sgstars:
i suggest we vote him as clown of the year or Unpersonality of the forum.
Joke of the Year sounds more suitable ... -
I can't believe the kind of crap people are posting in this forum.
What's with ST's flaming against TS?
And the mods here aren't doing anything about it.
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Originally posted by airgrinder:
I can't believe the kind of crap people are posting in this forum.
What's with ST's flaming against TS?
And the mods here aren't doing anything about it.
appreciate the context !
go look around this forums back pages for the lionnoisy threads. what he has posted here is nothing in comparison to his past jaunts
stay here long enough and you'd find out how entertaining he is :)
its not really flaming, its debunking nonsense. go and search all lionnoisy posts and you'd easily come to a conclusion within the first 5-10 posts.
Lionnoisy is bigoted, unobjective , mono-dimensional thinking and most definitely hates Australia. plus to boot, his command of english is beyond atrocious.
he's the only person whom ive seen posting in english, and absolutely mangling and defiling it to the point of, emerging as a language only lionnoisy can understand. Absolutely no one else does.
for instance
translate this :
Thanks.
u are the first MOD change my thread and not just acknowledge,
but immediately.Other MODs shall take a leave from u!!
-
Originally posted by airgrinder:
I can't believe the kind of crap people are posting in this forum.
What's with ST's flaming against TS?
And the mods here aren't doing anything about it.
The mods - ? haha - you be happy they did not join ST flaming !!! The mods did not do their job !!! They let ST flaming went too far !!! -
U see how many pegasus vs how many m777. If yes, m777 is inferior to pegasus and it cannot escape counter-battery fire so well, other batteries of artery that the opponent (MLRS, SP Guns) will definately attack the battery of pegasus too by saturated fire, therefore, instead of demostration of pegasus, i recommand ST to get back to basic, numbers, and remember that the eariler case of the Yom Kippur War that Syria could overcome Israil by numbers if not denied by israil morale and resistance, but could sg soliders be a par to israil solders, NO.
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Originally posted by storywolf:
The mods - ? haha - you be happy they did not join ST flaming !!! The mods did not do their job !!! They let ST flaming went too far !!!Hmmm what an accusation there.
Perhaps you could define "flaming" and then bring up some examples of that.
From what I see, Lionnoisy has made a reputation for himself for self-contradicting arguments, that have pretty dubious claims that are totally unbacked by facts, and have an obvious political leaning.
As for those cute pictures of toy lions, I don't see how it has been a personal attack on his integrity or person. They do have captions describing his rather dubious arguments and format.
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haha ..
here comes the storywolf, with his famous dual-use sense can see and hear my bark at the same time :)
great timing too. btw ive noticed something a tad too coincidental. when lionnoisy is here, storywolf postings arent too far off behind. and storywolf is just about the only entity that would defend lionnoisy.
just a coincidence, perhaps ?
but in any case, let me clarify, i dont hate or dislike lionnoisy. lionnoisy is good entertainment. just sometimes, the humour goes unappreciated because it becomes so bigoted and misleading, it ceases to even exist in the category of crass humour.
it ventures into the void zone of not funny jokes and was that even a joke kind of humour and sometimes, even into the zone of, wtf was that even a joke ? which necessitates swift and decisive action to ward off the danger of anyone actually becoming convinced by lionnoisy, hence, the Pwnage process.
IMHO. -
I find him pitiful...
Seriously! -
Singapore was rolling out SLWH almost at the same time as M 777!!
read Christ F Foss from Janes:
http://www.powmadeak47.com/me/idexarty.html
SLWH was debutted in IDEX 2001!!
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/ufh/
The Ultralightweight Field Howitzer (UFH), designated M777 in the USA, was selected in 1997 by a joint US Army / Marine Corps initiative to replace the existing inventory of M198 155mm towed howitzers. The first of five EMD systems was delivered in June 2000. The US Marine Corps is to procure 380 systems and the US Army 273 systems. A low-rate initial production (LRIP) contract for 94 systems was awarded in November 2002.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M777_howitzer
in services 2005.
The M777 began as the Ultralight-weight Field Howitzer (UFH), developed by VSEL's armaments division in Barrow-in-Furness, United Kingdom. In 1999, VSEL was merged into the new BAE Systems RO Defence.
@@@@@@@@@
so SG is not a third class country in producing military hard wares!s from Singapore unveiled
By Christopher F Foss
Singapore Technologies Kinetics selected IDEX 2001 to unveil no fewer than three new weapons - a 155mm/39 calibre Light Weight Self-Propelled Howitzer (LWSPH), an 8 x 8 Armoured Infantry Fighting Vehicle (AIFV) and a new 40mm Air Bursting Munition (ABM) system.The first 155mm LWSPH technology demonstrator was completed last year and has already fired about 350 rounds of ammunition during trials in South Africa. The system builds on Singapore Technologies Kinetics' experience in the design, development and production of the 155mm FH-88 and, more recently, 155mm FH-2000 towed artillery systems.
A key design feature of the 155mm LWSPH was that it could be carried internally in not only a C-130 Hercules aircraft, but also a CH-47 or CH-53 helicopter. The complete system makes extensive use of advanced materials and, without ammunition, weighs only 7,000kg. It takes one minute to come into or be taken out of action. Firing a ERFB BB (Extended Range Full Bore Base Bleed) projectile, a maximum range of 30km can be achieved with a burst rate of fire of three rounds in 15 seconds.
New weapons from Singapore unveiled
By Christopher F Foss
Singapore Technologies Kinetics selected IDEX 2001 to unveil no fewer than three new weapons - a 155mm/39 calibre Light Weight Self-Propelled Howitzer (LWSPH), an 8 x 8 Armoured Infantry Fighting Vehicle (AIFV) and a new 40mm Air Bursting Munition (ABM) system.The first 155mm LWSPH technology demonstrator was completed last year and has already fired about 350 rounds of ammunition during trials in South Africa. The system builds on Singapore Technologies Kinetics' experience in the design, development and production of the 155mm FH-88 and, more recently, 155mm FH-2000 towed artillery systems.
A key design feature of the 155mm LWSPH was that it could be carried internally in not only a C-130 Hercules aircraft, but also a CH-47 or CH-53 helicopter. The complete system makes extensive use of advanced materials and, without ammunition, weighs only 7,000kg. It takes one minute to come into or be taken out of action. Firing a ERFB BB (Extended Range Full Bore Base Bleed) projectile, a maximum range of 30km can be achieved with a burst rate of fire of three rounds in 15 seconds.
,,,,,
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Wow, you're reaching new heights of making unreadable posts. First it was wall of text and now you have upgraded to posting walls of text that are the same colour as the background.
so SG is not a third class country in producing military hard wares!
Who said that? It's only you with your insecurity that refuses to admit problems that sees the constant need to keep confirming that by claiming things that are not true (first in world, best in this and that) and trying to put down the equipment of other nations.
Bottom line, we don't care if SG is a third class country in producing military equipment or if it's better then something done but the US or not, we care if there are problems and flaws with the equipment.
And are there?
Yes.
Fullstop.
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Singapore was rolling out SLWH almost at the same time as M 777!!
SLWH was debutted in IDEX 2001!!
The Ultralightweight Field Howitzer (UFH), designated M777 in the USA, was selected in 1997
1997-2001
4 years is NOT almost the same time.
Also given the Pegasus has a 4 year technological headstart on the M777, how come can't improve on the design significantly?