Lionnoisy's War against Everything Australian: Hobart DDGs
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Lionnoisy's War against Everything Australian: Hobart DDGs
Who edited the name of my thread?
Under terms and conditions of this forum,can MOD edit forumers thread?
If the thread is not edited by MOD or his authorized persons,
then is it a hacking?
If it is a hacking,shall the criminal to be prosecuted under SG laws or
under the laws of the site of the server?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA
PWNAGE
You want to know who edited the name of your thread?
You did lionnoisy.
You made a gibberish thread with a gibberish title and want people to be involved in it, so they simply made your true intention easier to understand.
So who's to blame for it?
Yourself.
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NZ navy just accept a commercial ship platform as a naval ship.
Consequences is cannot go to ocean!!\
Ha ha another dream country for migrations.
SG army just accept a commercial suv platform as military unit!
Consquences is cannot fight war effectively!!\
Ha ha another dream idea for militarys.
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Will you go in war in a commercial suv?
But SAF want to do it!
In war can this be useful?
Look what happen to commercial suv in iraq!
SAF spend millions of tax payer hard earned money to buy commercial suv?
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lionnoisy... why this happen to our navy?
and our airforce?
A Republic of Singapore Air Force (RSAF) Super Puma AS 332 helicopter crash-landed at the Sembawang Air Base this afternoon.
Fortunately, no one was injured.
The incident happened at about 3pm while it was taking off, said a Mindef statement.
The Ministry of Defence is investigating the incident.
The Super Puma helicopter, which has been featured in the National Day Parade fly past, can accommodate up to three aircrew and 23 passengers.
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Originally posted by storywolf:
First let correct you since you are basically arguing with the wrong information. So far in the world Body Armour classification - is I, II , IIIA, III & IV only .... I am not sure how you get mislead to think that Dragon skin is class V ?
As for you so call dragon skin ? The armor is available in two basic protection levels: SOV-2000, which was certified as Level III protection (this certification was withdrawn, and Pinnacle is suing to force the NIJ to reinstate on the basis of its own private retesting[2][3]) and SOV-3000, which is advertised as Level IV but has not yet been certified as such.[3] Pinnacle Armor's website also identifies a "Level V" variant, which does not correspond to any body armor standard and is not available to the general public .
Hello III level certification withdrawn ? level IV not certified , then so call level V - does not correspond to and body armour standard ? - a lot of questionable on how effective dragon skin is ?
Dragon Skin is good - that is as far as the company keep telling everyone. If it is that great every military will be running to get it, if not frankly there is alternative in the market. Just because we not jumping to get dragon skin - does not mean we getting anything inferior.
We also must get a balance of armour protection and mobility of the soldier ! Of course higher level IV is better in protection but make the soldier less mobile.
As for SGTY is saying, BA is good, should have gotten earlier ? That i already answer in my eariler post - i disagree and i think the timing is just right. Just because you and T-rex cannot accept other people view and blindly just follow manufactorer claims !!!
no issues. i dont know BA that well.
the future weapons claim of level 5 armour was from the manufacturer itself. no contest.
but i never meant that i disagree with you. i m just saying your point is not clear. dragonskin is Not your usual IIIA armour. it works a helluva lot better than that. so why compare a class IIIA body armour with your dragonskin ? and SAF waiting for "better" technology before buying ?
might as well save up our billions we spend on defence and wait for them to design a gundamn suit. so we can rule the universe by then. its the usual procurement strategy as get what you need as you see fit. we have had BA for a long long long time. its just not SOP for every unit to be issued with it.
hell. if you'd like to know, our tankies use STK/CIS made level III armour. tell me. how good is that ? our infantry use israeli made BA (prior to the decision for mass procurement) but also level 3A (comes even with neck collar and groin guard. pretty good piece of kit i say)
i dont have an issue with what you are saying. my point is, what are you trying to say ? its not about content. its about what point are you making ?
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The point is storywolf isn't making any real point... basically his operation in here consists of kicking up some vauge dust about stuff and then attempting to defend the decisions (or lapses) made by the SAF in their equipment as good and "just right" in "his opinion", in lieu of the facts.
Also what's more bizzare about his hoo-ha in here is that nobody was even talking about the SAF getting Dragonskin in the first place, but that the practice of not using body armour is a rather big flaw in the "3G" SAF that they took rather long to fix even when the technology had already been around for rather long, and nobody is talking about Dragonskin at all,
In fact I have no idea how he started to say that I was "blindly following" manufacturer claims when I didn't even talk about Dragonskin.
LOL
My conclusion? Storywolf english comprehension fail...
Basically he's does not seem to be even answering any questions and simply uses them as a excuse to launch into his "SAF makes every decision right" monolouges peppered with plenty of allusions to how pple who disagree with him are either real/not real (changes from time to time) grunts or blindly/refuse to listen to manufacturer claims.
Basically I see no logical congruence in his replies, they are simply monolouges that seem to consist of him reading paragraphs into the lines. We talk about the SAF talking very long to implement BA as part of the standard kit and he goes into a monolouge of how BA is bad for the soldier who can drop dead from PT and then tosses in another unrelated point on how technology has "matured" (without really saying how) so that the SAF can now use BA without their soldiers dropping dead and that we're not going to war anytime soon... and then ironically he starts to criticize emerging technologies in BA like Dragonskin and then says that I am blindly following what the manufacturers say when I never even spoke a word about it.
What can I conclude except that something isn't working quite right with him?
You are right, he's not making any point, he's just monolouging. Have you every spoken to that kind of person where when you talk to them about something they'll reply a bit to it and then use it as a starting point to tell you one whole out-of-point grandfather story on something they are interested in that isn't even related to the starting issue? Yep, he's like that.
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Life-saving body armour for all army units
It will be used not only during operations but also when soldiers train
By David Boey
LOCAL troops will be better protected against bullets and shell fragments, with the Ministry of Defence (Mindef) planning to introduce body armour to all units.
Mindef has asked defence companies for information on the armour, worn as vests to protect the body from the neck down to the waist and groin area.
The Defence Science and Technology Agency (DSTA) - the national authority that buys weapons and equipment for the Singapore Armed Forces (SAF) - will assess what is available in the market, after which Mindef will progressively equip all army units with body armour.
Colonel Darius Lim, Mindef's director of public affairs, explained that the body armour will be used not only during operations, but also for training purposes such as during route marches, live-firing and urban warfare exercises.
Body armour is not new to the SAF, but it has been issued mainly to crack units, such as the Commando Special Operations Force, or SAF units involved in hazardous operations such as peace-keeping duties with the United Nations.
Armies worldwide have found that body armour and better military medical care save lives. Statistics kept by United States medical units indicate that some 30 per cent of all injured American troops died during World War II.
Better medical care saw that figure drop to 24 per cent in Vietnam but in Iraq, just 9 per cent of the injured lose their lives.
Body armour is usually made of soft bullet-resistant fabrics, or hard plates made of ceramics or resins. Such armour is numbered with Roman numerals from I to IV according to the protection they offer. Smaller numbers indicate lighter protection.
For the SAF troops, DSTA said the body armour should comprise:
The basic vest - built of tough and lightweight fabrics like nylon, the vest is designed to hold armour panels. DSTA said it should be 'inert to saltwater and mud' and 'printable with camouflage patterns'.
Removable soft ballistic armour panels - lightweight and water-repellent, the panels should repel 9mm rounds fired from submachine guns like the MP5.
Removable hard ballistic armour plates - these should resist 7.62mm bullets fired by general purpose machine guns.
Detachable soft protection pads for the neck and shoulder, and the groin - made of the same material as soft armour, the pads should be fitted when needed.
To ensure the vests work fine in Singapore's environment, DSTA said the vests should be able to withstand 98 per cent humidity and tolerate 'heavy rain conditions'.
Military equipment suppliers told The Straits Times they are steeling themselves for fierce competition when DSTA issues the body armour tender. -
The Defence Science and Technology Agency (DSTA) - the national authority that buys weapons and equipment for the Singapore Armed Forces (SAF) - will assess what is available in the market, after which Mindef will progressively equip all army units with body armour.
Colonel Darius Lim, Mindef's director of public affairs, explained that the body armour will be used not only during operations, but also for training purposes such as during route marches, live-firing and urban warfare exercises.So "sir" storywolf, how does this intention by the SAF to let our common troops use BA even in things like route marches and routine training stack up against your claim that our "not a grunt" soldier will die from using BA because it's too hot?
So last time cannot, but now in a time when our "not a grunt" soldiers can suddenly die from basic PT the SAF has found the "right time" to introduce BA?
So the SAF BA will be amazingly lighter and cooler then what other armies are using because now the time is "just right" and miracle technologies have emerged for the SAF?
LOL, pls larh, want to monolouge at least must make good points. I know inside the SAF sometimes it's the job of an officer to smoke out their lower ranks to make it seem like they know about what they are talking, but it don't really work here lah...
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Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:
How is the timing "just right" now? Beyond vauge statements
So for some reason the timing was "not right" to settle the SAR-21 M203 issues?
I find it bizzare that when it comes to the case of the SAR-21 you seem to "blindly just follow manufactorer claims !!!" in ST and Janes and disregard whatever the common solider practially experiences with the rifle in the field and how it stacks up against developments in small arms worldwide and then mysteriously now when it comes to BA your opponents are "view and blindly just follow manufactorer claims !!!"
Wow, your lionnoisyness is getting better by the minute.
Yes indeed, your view is your own and we can disagree, but it seems to be an apparent fact that you have shown a poor ability to argue your views out.
Frankly you are too double standard !!! If lionnoisy would have mention dragon skin as a level V - BA - you all would have blast him for wrong facts - as so far there is no level 5 ! But just because your friend say it wrongly, you choose to ignore it and it is ok, and when someone point out the fact - you jump in to eagerly to defend his wrong data.
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Originally posted by Shotgun:
I've seen Dragonskin on future weapons... dude go search out Dragonskin on youtube. The stuff that thing can stop is unbelieveable.
Yes on tv - future weapons, I would say Dragonskin look good, and look like it can stop bullets .....but does not mean there is no other body armour that is not better. If really good things, special forces all around the world would have rush to get and use it - like MP-5 !!! But there is a lack of rush into getting dragonskin, i am sure that they would have tested it, but possible it is still not good enough to persuade the world special forces that it is that good enough yet
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Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:
So "sir" storywolf, how does this intention by the SAF to let our common troops use BA even in things like route marches and routine training stack up against your claim that our "not a grunt" soldier will die from using BA because it's too hot?
So last time cannot, but now in a time when our "not a grunt" soldiers can suddenly die from basic PT the SAF has found the "right time" to introduce BA?
So the SAF BA will be amazingly lighter and cooler then what other armies are using because now the time is "just right" and miracle technologies have emerged for the SAF?
LOL, pls larh, want to monolouge at least must make good points. I know inside the SAF sometimes it's the job of an officer to smoke out their lower ranks to make it seem like they know about what they are talking, but it don't really work here lah...
By now BA we getting would definitity be lighter then what is available in the market 5 - 10 year ago. Unless you telling the world that BA technologies have not advance at all from last time ?
Seem strange that you keep thinking people in SAF are dumber than you ... don't have the brain to judge and buy good BA ? And should give the job to you ?
Seem like you happyly jump to support your friend - in getting level V BA - without considering the weight of it compare to level III.
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My BA still weighs 7 kg.
Edit: Oh, to storywolf, where's the evidence that the BA we were getting would now be lighter? Quite the contrary, the new BA I got was significantly heavier than the old one....enough to give you a shoulder-ache from prolonged usage. Seriously, its the new kevlar plate that's the killer.....both plates, front and back weigh around 5 kg.
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whoa whoa whoa... lets not get personal here.
1) i said i dont know much about BA. the level V dragonskin BA was something i recalled off hand from Future weapons video.
2) by your analogy, that means spec ops unit procure gear must send you an email and inform you first is it ? FYI, usually spec ops units have so much diverse gear and they have their own procurement systems. not necessary to go around for them telling everyone that they have dragonskin. they usually keep this kind of things quiet.
and for all the hoo-haa about dragonskin. here's an interesting article about WHY dragon skin may not be that good. scalar vs plate armour.
http://www.evolutionarmor.com/Rifletile.htm
3) so you think dragonskin is a bad thing and SAF has decided to procure body armour only now because things like dragonskin have come out and that BA has made a dramatic leap in terms of weight-protection performance ?
=> think again. i'm trying to say that SAF has always had BA. its just never tried to equip all the units at one time. the thing that i m trying to say is that, BA is nothing new to SAF. what's new is the policy that the new BA is going to be part of the individual soldier kit. every trooper is going to have one.
and personally i think its a matter of finally having the budget now rather than "leap in technology.
If you look at what SAF is buying, it isnt scalar type BPVs but rather your traditional Hard plate-soft bullet stopping material BPVs. and the traditional ones havent changed much in terms of weight or performance.
your points are not clear. if you cannot illustrate clearly. dont obfusticate (that means confuse). and dont make this into a bar brawl by randomly pointing fingers just because your points arent clear and accusing others that simply isnt very nice, or mature of you either
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Originally posted by sgstars:
whoa whoa whoa... lets not get personal here.
1) i said i dont know much about BA. the level V dragonskin BA was something i recalled off hand from Future weapons video.
2) by your analogy, that means spec ops unit procure gear must send you an email and inform you first is it ? FYI, usually spec ops units have so much diverse gear and they have their own procurement systems. not necessary to go around for them telling everyone that they have dragonskin. they usually keep this kind of things quiet.
and for all the hoo-haa about dragonskin. here's an interesting article about WHY dragon skin may not be that good. scalar vs plate armour.
http://www.evolutionarmor.com/Rifletile.htm
3) so you think dragonskin is a bad thing and SAF has decided to procure body armour only now because things like dragonskin have come out and that BA has made a dramatic leap in terms of weight-protection performance ?
=> think again. i'm trying to say that SAF has always had BA. its just never tried to equip all the units at one time. the thing that i m trying to say is that, BA is nothing new to SAF. what's new is the policy that the new BA is going to be part of the individual soldier kit. every trooper is going to have one.
and personally i think its a matter of finally having the budget now rather than "leap in technology.
If you look at what SAF is buying, it isnt scalar type BPVs but rather your traditional Hard plate-soft bullet stopping material BPVs. and the traditional ones havent changed much in terms of weight or performance.
your points are not clear. if you cannot illustrate clearly. dont obfusticate (that means confuse). and dont make this into a bar brawl by randomly pointing fingers just because your points arent clear and accusing others that simply isnt very nice, or mature of you either
So sgstars,
In your opinion, which of the following has a higher probability?
1. Repeated hit from rounds, shattering ceramic tile based armor which does not offer as extensive a coverage area, then penetrating to injure a soldier... Or
2. A round to impact and penetrate Dragonskin from such an odd angle that can only be achieved by firing at very low elevation? Eg... If you were wearing dragonskin, and I do a John Woo move where I slide under you on my back while going fully automatic with my AK.... (Taking account that you'd also get shot in the dick and probably the thigh where key arteries are also located....)
In tests so far, Dragonskin has indeed surpassed the Interceptor Body Armor. This is something that even the designer of Interceptor has admitted. And even after his admission on National TV, they are try to discredit both NBC Independent tests AND Future Weapons tests as hoaxes or inaccurate?
I'd be busy calling my lawyers on Mr Allan D. Bain if I were them.
Now I would like to ask a rather philosophical question to the notion that SpecOps should have the best equipment.
Is the life of an infantry grunt of lower value compared to a commando? I'm referring strictly to the value of life.Of course, a natural counter argument would be that Special Forces guys are put into more dangerous situations, which is largely fair. But, look at the American servicemen who have died from bullet wounds in Iraq, how many of them are SpecOps?
Do SAF personnel deserve such expensive protection? Can you touch your heart and say no? Honestly, I will feel better if I knew that my country gave me the best body armor there is out there before activating me for Ops. I'd be more likely to perform better as well.
Cheaper and lower grade body armor and lies that they are the best will only increase the body bag count. That is something Singapore can ill afford in any conflict since our soldiers are also part of our economic infrastructure.
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Originally posted by Shotgun:
Lionnoisy, a moderator (namely me) edited the name of your thread.
Love the Chaser reference, Shotgun! Noisy pussy would be spitting chips if he understood it!
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Originally posted by Shotgun:
So sgstars,
In your opinion, which of the following has a higher probability?
1. Repeated hit from rounds, shattering ceramic tile based armor which does not offer as extensive a coverage area, then penetrating to injure a soldier... Or
2. A round to impact and penetrate Dragonskin from such an odd angle that can only be achieved by firing at very low elevation? Eg... If you were wearing dragonskin, and I do a John Woo move where I slide under you on my back while going fully automatic with my AK.... (Taking account that you'd also get shot in the dick and probably the thigh where key arteries are also located....)
In tests so far, Dragonskin has indeed surpassed the Interceptor Body Armor. This is something that even the designer of Interceptor has admitted. And even after his admission on National TV, they are try to discredit both NBC Independent tests AND Future Weapons tests as hoaxes or inaccurate?
I'd be busy calling my lawyers on Mr Allan D. Bain if I were them.
Now I would like to ask a rather philosophical question to the notion that SpecOps should have the best equipment.
Is the life of an infantry grunt of lower value compared to a commando? I'm referring strictly to the value of life.Of course, a natural counter argument would be that Special Forces guys are put into more dangerous situations, which is largely fair. But, look at the American servicemen who have died from bullet wounds in Iraq, how many of them are SpecOps?
Do SAF personnel deserve such expensive protection? Can you touch your heart and say no? Honestly, I will feel better if I knew that my country gave me the best body armor there is out there before activating me for Ops. I'd be more likely to perform better as well.
Cheaper and lower grade body armor and lies that they are the best will only increase the body bag count. That is something Singapore can ill afford in any conflict since our soldiers are also part of our economic infrastructure.
chill my man
i reserve my comments on this. i said it was interesting. i didnt say it was definitive. and if you read the last bit of the article, The manufacturer of Dragonskin had nothing to lose, and everything to gain.
i am looking solely and let me stress that, solely in the case some others dont get it and blame me for it, the whole dragonskin saga, is the possibility of vested interests manipulating the results.
i agree with you. totally no issues. give me a choice between dragonskin and plate armour, ild take whichever i feel most comfortable with. but since i have no experience with either BPV i cant say which. but from what i have read, Marines serving in iraq got scalar armour (not dragonskin) but they preferred the added protection of plate armour but they didnt want the weight
if i m not mistaken, one thing the futureweapons and NBC documentaries dont cover as well is, scalar stops bullets. plate stops bullets too. but with scalar once u get shot, your body takes the impact (IIRC). for interceptor type armour with HARD plate and BP material (flexi) the BP material stops the bullet and the hard plate takes the impact.
hard-soft type BPV may be weaker than scalar type for repeated firings. the ceramite shatters once broken. the thinner layer of BP becomes more weaker. but the hard plate means u can get back up and fight again. the scale type means you are KOed out of action for awhile. Your body absorbs the impact of the bullet instead of the plate. this can mean something from a bad bruise to something like a broken rib (worst case punctured lung or internal organ. ouch! )
in summary ild throw the question back at you. having superior protection but your trooper on the ground incapicitated and with a probability of internal organ damage. or inferior protection from an unlikely scenario (one soldier getting shot at multiple times at a particular spot) but if he he does get shot, chances are, he wont be incapicitated.which one would you pick then ?
there's this article i read about USMC troopers being issued with both, but the feedback from the troops using it was they wanted something that had the light weight and the added protection from plate.
i dont think the dragonskin saga is so simple. its probably some jockying or lobbying going on.
at the same time, SAF dosent print money. lets do some 3rd degree aproximations ok ? say each BPV with molles system will cost about 1,200 dollars (thats on the cheap end). that alone, multiplied by 20,000 troopers per annum intake. how much will that cost you ? thats 240 million alone for body armour per year assuming a situation where everyone gets a personal set and they get to keep it.
add in maintainence, wear and tear and replacements. we'd bump that figure up to 250 million thereabouts ?
its expensive. its adding to the per soldier procurement costs. the US army spends 17,000 (according to pop mechanics so can take it with a pinch of salt) on per trooper with all the comms and standard personal equipment.
if we were to do that with all our conscripts and reservists, how much are we going to spend ?
i totally agree with you on the impact of morale and how the SAF cannot afford to lose people. but at what cost ? everything comes at a cost. we probably can afford to have everything like the US army has, NVG's for everyone and different kits of gear. but at who's expense ? increase of GST to 10% ? increase ERP ?
i think its cost effective procurement that makes sense. going by head not heart.
and the bit about commandos. what i meant about commandos having dragonskin was about the commandos having totally seperate supply/procurement chains. they have access to money and stuff the ordinary grunts dont have.
its not about spec ops deserving better. its just that the gear they have and the budgets they have to acquire and the freedom to use whatever suits them. simply dosent exist for your average joe grunt in a combat unit
and if i'm not too sure if youve heard about the rumours on other forums of spec ops recruiting heavily to top up losses in both iraq and afghanistan. things like pat tillman happened because of the compressed training and recruitment. and the training and qualties of a spec ops troopers as well as the financial expenditure to train one. maybe thats why they get more funding and leeway ?
ild like to think that the concept of egalitarianism isnt dead in the army. that every trooper should have equal access to the best fighting equipment that money can buy. but unfortunately, reality often falls short of that. lan lan suck thumb lor. bite the bullet (figuratively and not literally in this context)
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Originally posted by sgstars:
chill my man
i reserve my comments on this. i said it was interesting. i didnt say it was definitive. and if you read the last bit of the article, The manufacturer of Dragonskin had nothing to lose, and everything to gain.
i am looking solely and let me stress that, solely in the case some others dont get it and blame me for it, the whole dragonskin saga, is the possibility of vested interests manipulating the results.
i agree with you. totally no issues. give me a choice between dragonskin and plate armour, ild take whichever i feel most comfortable with. but since i have no experience with either BPV i cant say which. but from what i have read, Marines serving in iraq got scalar armour (not dragonskin) but they preferred the added protection of plate armour but they didnt want the weight
if i m not mistaken, one thing the futureweapons and NBC documentaries dont cover as well is, scalar stops bullets. plate stops bullets too. but with scalar once u get shot, your body takes the impact (IIRC). for interceptor type armour with HARD plate and BP material (flexi) the BP material stops the bullet and the hard plate takes the impact.
hard-soft type BPV may be weaker than scalar type for repeated firings. the ceramite shatters once broken. the thinner layer of BP becomes more weaker. but the hard plate means u can get back up and fight again. the scale type means you are KOed out of action for awhile. Your body absorbs the impact of the bullet instead of the plate. this can mean something from a bad bruise to something like a broken rib (worst case punctured lung or internal organ. ouch! )
in summary ild throw the question back at you. having superior protection but your trooper on the ground incapicitated and with a probability of internal organ damage. or inferior protection from an unlikely scenario (one soldier getting shot at multiple times at a particular spot) but if he he does get shot, chances are, he wont be incapicitated.which one would you pick then ?
there's this article i read about USMC troopers being issued with both, but the feedback from the troops using it was they wanted something that had the light weight and the added protection from plate.
i dont think the dragonskin saga is so simple. its probably some jockying or lobbying going on.
at the same time, SAF dosent print money. lets do some 3rd degree aproximations ok ? say each BPV with molles system will cost about 1,200 dollars (thats on the cheap end). that alone, multiplied by 20,000 troopers per annum intake. how much will that cost you ? thats 240 million alone for body armour per year assuming a situation where everyone gets a personal set and they get to keep it.
add in maintainence, wear and tear and replacements. we'd bump that figure up to 250 million thereabouts ?
its expensive. its adding to the per soldier procurement costs. the US army spends 17,000 (according to pop mechanics so can take it with a pinch of salt) on per trooper with all the comms and standard personal equipment.
if we were to do that with all our conscripts and reservists, how much are we going to spend ?
i totally agree with you on the impact of morale and how the SAF cannot afford to lose people. but at what cost ? everything comes at a cost. we probably can afford to have everything like the US army has, NVG's for everyone and different kits of gear. but at who's expense ? increase of GST to 10% ? increase ERP ?
i think its cost effective procurement that makes sense. going by head not heart.
and the bit about commandos. what i meant about commandos having dragonskin was about the commandos having totally seperate supply/procurement chains. they have access to money and stuff the ordinary grunts dont have.
its not about spec ops deserving better. its just that the gear they have and the budgets they have to acquire and the freedom to use whatever suits them. simply dosent exist for your average joe grunt in a combat unit
and if i'm not too sure if youve heard about the rumours on other forums of spec ops recruiting heavily to top up losses in both iraq and afghanistan. things like pat tillman happened because of the compressed training and recruitment. and the training and qualties of a spec ops troopers as well as the financial expenditure to train one. maybe thats why they get more funding and leeway ?
ild like to think that the concept of egalitarianism isnt dead in the army. that every trooper should have equal access to the best fighting equipment that money can buy. but unfortunately, reality often falls short of that. lan lan suck thumb lor. bite the bullet (figuratively and not literally in this context)
Refer to quotes in bold.
First one being a faulty premise that the scalar armor would not absorb the impact as well. I'm no physicists so I can't really explain the physics of why that is faulty. Independent testings done by various interest groups that are questioning the US Army why Dragonskin was not chosen instead of IBA, showed that the Dragonskin was better by far in absorbing the impact of bullets.
If you have a very dense material like a plate in IBA, when the bullet hits, where is the force gonna go? Dense materials do not deal with shock well, I figure thats why knocking on wood is more resounding than knocking on kevlar. If you knock on kevlar, your knuckles will hurt because the force is being shot back at you. If your hand was a bullet, where does the force go? Into the plate, either fracturing it, and surplus energy through the fracture area into the body. At least, thats what I figure it's like to get shot in IBA... again, im no physicist.
When you have scalar armor, with flexible dense pieces of material interlinked. The bullet's force will be diffused around the entire span of the armor make up. What happens? The bullet is met by dense material (a definition requirement as protection goes), but the force is also diffused across a larger surface area due to flexibility of the interlinked pieces. The advantage now is two fold. Not only does the diffusion of energy prevent internal injuries, it drastically reduces the bullet's ability to penetrate or damage the scale.
Second: I'm not talking about NVGs and ACOG sights. I'm talking about armor protection that is used to save lives. If you are a soldier (if you are Singaporean, you will or have been at some point), you will appreciate the fact that you have a body armor system that is proven to be the best there is. If the SAF suddenly downgrades from Kevlar helmet to the old Tin-helmet cos its cheaper though slightly heavier and offers less protection, how would you feel?
If you go to a widow or a mother who lost her husband or son in war because his body armor failed, and asked her if she minds paying more taxes in exchange for her loved one's life, what do you think the answer will be? When it comes to purchasing equipment that would enhance safety and save lives, money is no object as it won't be a splurge of resources. But of course, at USD$5,000 a piece, its quite bullsh!t if the SAF tries to justify spending $30Billion to purchase 600,000pcs of Dragonskin. $3-6 Billion for 600,000 pieces, I don't think thats pretty bad.
Ballistic Armor is a controlled equipment here. Not every reservist is gonna bring it home and keep as Personal issue. Buy a bulk quantity of it, and issue to whoever when needed, I don't see how we'd end up raising ERP or GST over it. Besides, if good ol Temasek has been "earning" as claimed, its about time they contributed to our national defence.
I hope I don't sound too mean. Some issues are best laid out in the most direct manner to avoid mis-interpretation.
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By now BA we getting would definitity be lighter then what is available in the market 5 - 10 year ago. Unless you telling the world that BA technologies have not advance at all from last time ?
Seem strange that you keep thinking people in SAF are dumber than you ... don't have the brain to judge and buy good BA ? And should give the job to you ?
Seem like you happyly jump to support your friend - in getting level V BA - without considering the weight of it compare to level III.
Since when did I say that "my friend" must get level V? You seeing things and making up points again ah? This is strange given level V does not even officially exist currently.
Must I understate it for you again? I never said anything about level V or advocated it, it's something that exists only in your own brain, which sad to say is an insult to our officer corps.
You also seem to talk a lot without offering anything solid besides vauge proclaimations of technology advance, Using your kind of argument, we can also say that technology has advanced enough to make gundams now.
Please name current technologies that afford a level IV protection at your "advanced weight reduction levels"
The SAF requirements for BA, needs to stop NATO 7.62 GPMG rounds, which will be a level 3 requirement, which will certainly NOT be light...
So you are saying the SAF are stupid for asking for level 3 as well?
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Originally posted by Shotgun:
First one being a faulty premise that the scalar armor would not absorb the impact as well. I'm no physicists so I can't really explain the physics of why that is faulty. Independent testings done by various interest groups that are questioning the US Army why Dragonskin was not chosen instead of IBA, showed that the Dragonskin was better by far in absorbing the impact of bullets.
If you have a very dense material like a plate in IBA, when the bullet hits, where is the force gonna go? Dense materials do not deal with shock well, I figure thats why knocking on wood is more resounding than knocking on kevlar. If you knock on kevlar, your knuckles will hurt because the force is being shot back at you. If your hand was a bullet, where does the force go? Into the plate, either fracturing it, and surplus energy through the fracture area into the body. At least, thats what I figure it's like to get shot in IBA... again, im no physicist.
When you have scalar armor, with flexible dense pieces of material interlinked. The bullet's force will be diffused around the entire span of the armor make up. What happens? The bullet is met by dense material (a definition requirement as protection goes), but the force is also diffused across a larger surface area due to flexibility of the interlinked pieces. The advantage now is two fold. Not only does the diffusion of energy prevent internal injuries, it drastically reduces the bullet's ability to penetrate or damage the scale.
Second: I'm not talking about NVGs and ACOG sights. I'm talking about armor protection that is used to save lives. If you are a soldier (if you are Singaporean, you will or have been at some point), you will appreciate the fact that you have a body armor system that is proven to be the best there is. If the SAF suddenly downgrades from Kevlar helmet to the old Tin-helmet cos its cheaper though slightly heavier and offers less protection, how would you feel?
If you go to a widow or a mother who lost her husband or son in war because his body armor failed, and asked her if she minds paying more taxes in exchange for her loved one's life, what do you think the answer will be? When it comes to purchasing equipment that would enhance safety and save lives, money is no object as it won't be a splurge of resources. But of course, at USD$5,000 a piece, its quite bullsh!t if the SAF tries to justify spending $30Billion to purchase 600,000pcs of Dragonskin. $3-6 Billion for 600,000 pieces, I don't think thats pretty bad.
I hope I don't sound too mean. Some issues are best laid out in the most direct manner to avoid mis-interpretation.
me neither. i dont claim to understand BPVs very well.
i think you are misunderstanding me alittle. i m not saying kevlar and plate is good and all. what i m saying is something like this
you see the outer vest material right ? the next layer (with all the shell lines is the ceramic plate armour), followed by the kevlar layer.
the plate shatters upon impact. it absorbs the bullet impact. the kevlar prevents the bullet from pentrating the body. in that sense, the internal organs are protected and the kevlar plate "bites the bullet" for the soldier. the force of the oncoming bullet is taken on by the ceramic plate and it distributes it by shattering.
our israeli made BPVs work on the same premise except we have a kevlar mandarin collar to protect from fragments and we have an additional kevlar lining before the plate (dont ask me how this works, i dont know)
AFAIK, scalar armour is lighter as it removes the hard ceramic plate armour. but then again, i m no physicist, i really wont know if the scalar armour can distribute the impact as evenly as it claims.
no issues, i dont find it being mean. i like straight forward clear cut discussions instead of harangue issues and obfusticating them, taking pot shots at others.
i agree with you on the on the need for the best. but lets not take take things to an overly emotional point of view. Its always about the people who are the end users of the gear. No gear can be valued higher than the human being's life. gear is expendable. human beings arent.
but war is about death and risk. no amount of money spent will ensure a death free combat battlefield environment. its a risk that's entailed with the job. this risk is inherent with the job no matter how much you try to minimalize it.
i thought the new BPVs were going to be PE ? or are they going to be like the way SAF uses armour ? rotate around the different units once they enlist and MR ? 1.200 per BPV is the low end of the approximation. its probably going to be substantially higher than that, hence the comments about government raising alternative revenue forms.
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I don't think the new Body Armor plates are gonna be PE at all. Perhaps just the webbing and the vest pockets... But the plates itself, no.
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After lionnoisy gets forumers into conflicts, he goes MIA and watches the show from the background.
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Originally posted by Shotgun:
I don't think the new Body Armor plates are gonna be PE at all. Perhaps just the webbing and the vest pockets... But the plates itself, no.
possible.
but with the pictures that they released to CJ, with the new camo print on the BPV as well. my personal take is that the BPV is going to be PE.
reason being, our LBV worn over BPV looks idiotic. plus, the LBV wasnt designed with that purpose in mind. its egronomics, in the sense of how they to reach and obtain stuff from the pockets. its really really inconvenient. to be issuing LBV and the BPV together is problematic.
buying a BPV would eliminate cost of LBV. its far more easier to have molles straps on the BPV and mount on whatever pouches you want than wearing a LBV on top of the BPV.
what i find really surprising is, will the LBV soon be supersceded by a molles strap BPV ? quite hard to fanthom such a short sighted procurement cycle. LBV has not even been fully introduced when its probably going to be phased out. alot of questions on this one. alot of information thats not known or made public. interesting.
another problematic thing with BPV and if it becomes personal issue, even without the ceramic plates, the kevlar lining will stop bullets too. just that it wont be as effective with a plate. and the body will bear the impact of the bullet.
the potential for abuse is enormous.
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I think it might work the other way round.... LBV over the Body Armor vest... Or somehow they can be integrated. I'm still using the good ol SBO , so I'm not sure either.
Anyone here a "new" 3G soldier?
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Originally posted by Shotgun:
I think it might work the other way round.... LBV over the Body Armor vest... Or somehow they can be integrated. I'm still using the good ol SBO , so I'm not sure either.
Anyone here a "new" 3G soldier?
i m lucky to get both kits.
with a little luck ild be getting the BPV next time round or during reservist. ild let you know if i can play around with it.
LBV around the BPV is really stupid. afterall. most BPVs come standard with molles pouches.
maybe they designed a system that is a LBV with kevlar ? then remove the plates and u get a light flak jacket ?
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another problematic thing with BPV and if it becomes personal issue, even without the ceramic plates, the kevlar lining will stop bullets too. just that it wont be as effective with a plate. and the body will bear the impact of the bullet.
the potential for abuse is enormous.
Without the plate the vest isn't much good except for stopping handgun rounds... but then again if you want to go rob bank...
what do the yanks do? do they get to bring their BA home?