Lionnoisy's War against Everything Australian: Hobart DDGs
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Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:lionnoisy said:''i think 6 Collins sub spent more time in docks than sailing after delivery.''
You think, you though who confirm?
You obviously have no idea on the true state of our submarine force. Do you have any idea on the readiness our our current submarine force? No idea? Try talking to somebody into the RSN.
Curiously for anything regarding the SAF, you always seem to assume 100 percent readiness for anything, but is incredibly pessimistic when it comes to any other nation. Apparently, murphy laws only works for other nations?
In any case for your "layman" understanding, lets just say that in terms of submarine technology, the Aussies are light years ahead of us, or any nation in the world for that matter when it comes to operating blue water SSKs.
So when Australia get second hand weapons system it is a mistake?
But when Singapore gets an old, second hand sub that was supposed to be scrapped it is "for our needs".
Seriously you are a joke.
1.At last SgTy regard time availiable for sub sailing is important.
STy now wont said Oz sub of future technology can cover every short fall.
2.Pl keep on track of this thread---Oz AWD and rrelated topics,now
we talking about sub.We can open a topics to talk SAF stuff,
but not offending OSA!!
3.Oz have never bought old major platforms in the past 20 years,
unlike SG!!Oz may have bought old major platforms more than
20 years ago.Oz goes for latest ,biggest and powerful platforms,
at least on paper.Sg is good to turn scrap into usable stuff,after
some jobs!!
ONLY less than 2 subs can fight,so to say, in any day
we come to here not to hear any authoritive speech
or teaching,ie whatever this man says ot this country do
is right.
We come here to learn somethings useful,to sharpen our thinking
skills and to distinguish between facts and fictions.
Oz offical reports is only 1.6 sub in a day on average, able to fight
,so to say, in 2006/2007.Pl take note even these 1.6
Collins sub were ''Mission capabality
not fully achieved due to system related defects and workforce
shortfalls.''
So,i can say NO COLLINS SUB REACH FULL CAPABILITY in 2006/07!!
OMG!!u spent so much $$ and effort and NOT a single
sub can fight to her designed fighting capabilty!!
yes.They think no one will knock on Australia's door.
U are invited to read the full report if u think
it is unbelieveable.
4.Australia Collins sub 40 % to 60% in dock:Officail report
Thats is to say,only 3 out of 6 latest and powerful Oz sub can sail
at any time.
We dunt know the capbaility,to be honest.Lets assume all sails
with Full Capabability.
But is it a prudent approach when u can only deploy half of the subs?
Why sub have to spend so much time in docks?
They are pretty new.Oz will tell u they are doing upgrading for
agvanced or future weapons or equipments.
But do u think a less than 10 Years sub needs so much upgrading?
Use your brains!!
Look at these evidences:
No. of weeks required
FCD = Full-Cycle Docking--52
MCD = Mid-Cycle Docking--5
AMP = Assisted Maintenance Period--4
ID = Intermediate Docking—9 to 14
CED = Certifi cation Extension Docking--14
CEM = Certifi cation Extension Maintenance Period--5
SMP = Self Maintenance Period--2
IMAV = Intermediate Maintenance Availability—8
http://www.sgforums.com/forums/1164/topics/314188?page=2
Only up to 10 naval cambtant platform defend Oz a day
In 2006,40% time in dock:
In 2004/05,60 % spent in docks.
2003/04,55 % in dock
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5. 5 out of 6 subs out of actions
It seem it happened in early 2005.
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Yah Yah!!!
We believe your crap!!!
HMAS Collins below 10 years.
HMAS Collins (SSG 73), named for Vice Admiral Sir John Collins (1899-1989), is a Collins class submarine laid down by the Australian Submarine Corporation at Osborne in South Australia on 14 February 1990, launched on 28 August 1993 and commissioned on 27 July 1996. Jane's Fighting Ships states that the Collins has been modified to support special forces operations.
Singapore has the BEST Navy in the World Wide World even beating junk boats used by the USA!!!!
How deluded have we become???
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Pl forgive them.Collins are being fitted with US nuke sub Combat sys!!
any news for the performance of this Combay Sys.
I hope the Naval Heli tragedy will not happen again.
Oz tried to fit latest combat sys to Vietnam heli air frame,
leading to scarp A$1000 million contract,just announced in mid 2008!!
Anzac Ship Helicopter
SEA 1411
Phase 1
2001-02
2002-03
2003-04
2004-05
2005-06
2006-07Approved project expenditure($m)1108
Cumulative expenditure to 30 June 2008($m)953
Budget Estimate 2008-09 ($13m)
The Government has announced an intention to cancel this project. The provision of $13m in FY 2008-09 is in anticipation of the potential costs associated with concluding the contract, which may include legal fees. The estimate is therefore indicative and will be offset by the Australian Government receiving at least 50 per cent of the proceeds from any sales Kaman Aerospace make on return of the aircraft, training equipment and spares (with a guaranteed return of $39.5m).PART TWO
DEFENCE MATERIEL ORGANISATIONAustralia Defense report
Collins Replacement Combat System
SEA 1439
Phase 4A
2003-04
2004-05
2005-06
2006-07
2007-08Approved project expenditure($m)452
Cumulative expenditure to 30 June 2008($m)391
Budget Estimate 2008-09 ($19m)
HMAS Waller achieved Initial Operational Release in May 2008, from which time the submarine will be available for deployment by the RAN. Installations in HMA Submarines Farncomb and Dechaineux are progressing to schedule and will be completed in Farncomb in July 2008 and Dechaineux in April 2009. -
Originally posted by lionnoisy:
5. 5 out of 6 subs out of actions
It seem it happened in early 2005.
From this article you can tell that all the ships were docked at the same time???
Do you provide mind reading or fortune telling sessions too???
Please tell us where does it say in the article that they were all docked at the same time???
So being docked at HMAS Stirling (Naval Port) is considered docking next to a ship???
HMAS Stirling ( 32°13′33″S, 115°41′24″E) is the name given to the administrative centre of the Royal Australian Navy's main naval base on the west coast (Fleet Base West), located on Garden Island just off the Western Australian coast near the city of Perth. Garden Island also has its own airport on the island (ICAO: YGAD).
Please give me more comments on your thoughts about P4P exploiting the CPF. Your feedback highly regarded, else I take it that you agree with my statements.
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The article refer to early of the year.
Even this article cant prove,the few charts can prove,
on average,40 to 60% sub in dock for various stage of mainteances
pl read
No. of weeks required
FCD = Full-Cycle Docking--52
MCD = Mid-Cycle Docking--5
AMP = Assisted Maintenance Period--4
ID = Intermediate Docking—9 to 14
CED = Certifi cation Extension Docking--14
CEM = Certifi cation Extension Maintenance Period--5
SMP = Self Maintenance Period--2
IMAV = Intermediate Maintenance Availability—8
http://www.sgforums.com/forums/1164/topics/314188?page=2
Only up to 10 naval cambtant platform defend Oz a day
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Originally posted by lionnoisy:
The article refer to early of the year.
Even this article cant prove,the few charts can prove,
on average,40 to 60% sub in dock for various stage of mainteances
pl read
No. of weeks required
FCD = Full-Cycle Docking--52
MCD = Mid-Cycle Docking--5
AMP = Assisted Maintenance Period--4
ID = Intermediate Docking—9 to 14
CED = Certifi cation Extension Docking--14
CEM = Certifi cation Extension Maintenance Period--5
SMP = Self Maintenance Period--2
IMAV = Intermediate Maintenance Availability—8
http://www.sgforums.com/forums/1164/topics/314188?page=2
Only up to 10 naval cambtant platform defend Oz a day
Huh???Do you know what is Full Docking Cycle (FCD)?
Or do you even know what is a cycle?
52 weeks = 1 year
So they dock this ship for 1 year, then proceed to dock the ship another year?
If my car needs a cycle of 52 weeks before I bring it for maintenance, it means my car is in the workshop for 1 year.
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HMAS Stirling (Naval Port).
Hypothetically:
HMAS Lion (Ship) docked at HMAS Jurong (Naval Port).
HMAS Gazelle (Ship) docked at HMAS Jurong (Naval Port).
HMAS Lies (Ship) docked at HMAS Jurong (Naval Port).
HMAS Stupidity (Ship) docked at HMAS Sentosa (Naval Port).
HMAS Propaganda (Ship) docked at HMAS Sentosa (Naval Port).
HMAS Moron (Ship) docked at HMAS Sentosa (Naval Port).
Therefore all the ships are docked alongside each other.
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This is good entertainment.
Please continue.
Please make your contributions and participate in the CPF thread, your humour is desired.
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Just some good advice.
Stop wasting your time in this forum!!!
It is not doing you any good!!!
With the time spent here, you are better off getting a diploma that helps you to think and analyse.
Garbage In, Garbage Out.
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The testing question is what is the track records of Oz
designing and building naval ships?
Will U wont build a F1 racing car if u dunt have any car building
experience?Yes it is ok if u are engineering student.
The risk is low even the design and workmanship not good.
But now u are talking defense,a serious business,i suppose.
U are building a ship costing tax payers A$2600 million,
total A$7500 million for 3 ships.The fate of your nation
depends on you.
This is pretty a big sum even the training cost involved.
oK,i agree the design is fine ,excellent.
But oz keen to build the ships in Oz soil.
Then i think it will be a big problem.
But i cant find any naval ship building experience for this class of ships
from various stake holders:
In April 2005, the Australian Government selected Raytheon Australia Pty Ltd (Raytheon) as the Combat System Systems Engineer, and in May 2005 selected ASC AWD Shipbuilder Pty Ltd (ASC) as the Shipbuilder.
http://www.ausawd.com/alliance.html
www.asc.com.au (under Ships section,only AWD)(u cant rely on their .............................experierence on Collins sub,right?
http://www.raytheon.com.au/(They are just responsible for
- ''Air Warfare Destroyer - Combat System Systems Engineer---
responsible as part of the AWD Alliance for the non-Aegis elements of the AWD Combat System''.)
If ASC have a pretty track records,it should post on the web site.
http://www.asc.com.au/aspx/ships_overview.aspx
Or stupid,u will say,ASC is looking for sub- contractors to do various blocks.
But what are the Oz shipyards' experience in building naval ship and
in this class?.
I can only find USN LCS builder
http://www.austal.com/go/product-information/defence-products/littoral-combat-ship-(lcs)
''The platform chosen by the team is Austal's fast trimaran design which provides enhanced seakeeping, low resistance, superior aviation facilities and large payload carrying capacity.''
Unfortunately,even this shipyard is not a major dirct contractor.
May be it would be selected to build some blocks of AWD.
I would like to know the experiences of Oz shipyards in ship building
of this class.----so many decks and pretty complicated.
CATAMARAN is the proud of Oz,up to 10,000 tons.
But i think naval fighting ship is a pretty different product.
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Originally posted by maurizio13:
Huh???Do you know what is Full Docking Cycle (FCD)?
Or do you even know what is a cycle?
52 weeks = 1 year
So they dock this ship for 1 year, then proceed to dock the ship another year?
If my car needs a cycle of 52 weeks before I bring it for maintenance, it means my car is in the workshop for 1 year.
will any learned forumers help me explain to m13,
who cannot accept a sub was docked for one whole year during the reporting
period.My link are all there.u can read and come back.
My stuff may not 100% correct,but all supported with references.
No empty words.
Two subs were docked in whole years at the same time.
See to believe.57 % on average in dock.Thats is only
3 out of 6 subs could sail in a day.
But what were the capablity of the subs which were not
in docks?Read the report then u know.
FCD mean the docking after one maintenance cycle.
Mid -cycle docking then u know lah,a docking in the middle
of a maintenance cycle.
u can write to Oz Defense Ministry to check and share the answer
here.Will Sg Ty help to give expert advices?
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This is how the new Aust AWD look like. It does incorporate stealth !
Lionnoisy did not do this homework again, just take old photo of the previous verision , and run around shooting off blindly !!! -
Originally posted by lionnoisy:
will any learned forumers help me explain to m13,
who cannot accept a sub was docked for one whole year during the reporting
period.My link are all there.u can read and come back.
My stuff may not 100% correct,but all supported with references.
No empty words.
Two subs were docked in whole years at the same time.
See to believe.57 % on average in dock.Thats is only
3 out of 6 subs could sail in a day.
But what were the capablity of the subs which were not
in docks?Read the report then u know.
FCD mean the docking after one maintenance cycle.
Mid -cycle docking then u know lah,a docking in the middle
of a maintenance cycle.
u can write to Oz Defense Ministry to check and share the answer
here.Will Sg Ty help to give expert advices?
Hehehe.......
Your intelligence is astounding, maybe you should spend more time here, I doubt you qualify for any diploma course.
So for the article below, the aircraft carrier has a 12 year docking cycle, it means they dock the aircraft carrier for 12 years each time.
"To lower lifecycle costs, a twelve year docking cycle has been specified for the CVN-78 and all subsequent aircraft carriers. To meet such a stringent requirement, the Composites Manufacturing Technology Center, working with Northrop Grumman Newport News, the Applied Research Laboratory at Penn State University, and the Carderock Division of the Naval Surface Warfare Center, first identified the design factors that prevent the current propulsion shaft covering from meeting that goal. The team then developed and validated a new composite covering system, along with an innovative application process, that provides more than twelve years of reliable corrosion protection for Navy wet shafting.
Lifecycle cost savings are estimated at $750,000 per ship per 12 year cycle based upon eliminating a waterborne shaft overhaul during this interval. Engineering change activities are currently underway to incorporate the new covering system into the shipyards’ manufacturing and repair procedures.
On average 469 shafts are now replaced or repaired every 7 years at a cost of $64,000 to $192,450 per shaft relative to the shaft size. By eliminating one or two repair cycles for each shaft and extending the frequency of each docking cycle, the total estimated repair cost savings is $6M per year across the fleet."
http://www.scra.org/composites.shtml
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Originally posted by storywolf:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d2/Australian_AWD.jpg This is how the new Aust AWD look like. It does incorporate stealth ! Lionnoisy did not do this homework again, just take old photo of the previous verision , and run around shooting off blindly !!!
Isn't that always the case for lionnoisy, wrong facts, wrong interpretation and wrong comprehension. -
I think at this stage, you are still clueless about the meaning of "cycle".
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If you had taken the time to read and comprehend, instead of opening your trap and sprouting nonsense, you would have notice that in page15 of the annual report 2006.
It states:
With the return of HMAS Collins into service in October 2005, and the
successful certification extension of HMAS Dechaineux to May 2006, there were five in-service submarines for six months during the 2005/06 year. This was a first for ASC and the RAN, and has provided an excellent insight into the workload and resources required to support the Collins
Class submarines in the future.
I do not know what is the size of the Royal Australian Navy submarine fleet, but from Wikipedia, it's stated that they have 6 submarines. 5 submarines out of 6 in service out of 6 months a year is quite good. I can't say the same for your brain.
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Originally posted by storywolf: This is how the new Aust AWD look like. It does
incorporate stealth ! Lionnoisy did not do this homework again,
just take old photo of the previous verision , and run around
shooting off blindly !!!
tx for doing home work then talk,unlike others.
But what is the design status?
i alreday posted it yesterday 17.08.2008 12.58 pm
pl read my posting on ytd:
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lionnoisy,
So......how now brown cow?
The HMAS Submarines have a 52 week docking cycle, while aircraft carriers have a 12 year docking cycle. The submarines are not operational for 1 year, while aircraft carriers are not operational for 12 years.
Please provide us with more entertainment.
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Originally posted by maurizio13:
Hehehe.......
Your intelligence is astounding, maybe you should spend more time here, I doubt you qualify for any diploma course.
So for the article below, the aircraft carrier has a 12 year docking cycle, it means they dock the aircraft carrier for 12 years each time.
"To lower lifecycle costs, a twelve year docking cycle has been specified for the CVN-78 and all subsequent aircraft carriers. To meet such a stringent requirement, the Composites Manufacturing Technology Center, working with Northrop Grumman Newport News, the Applied Research Laboratory at Penn State University, and the Carderock Division of the Naval Surface Warfare Center, first identified the design factors that prevent the current propulsion shaft covering from meeting that goal. The team then developed and validated a new composite covering system, along with an innovative application process, that provides more than twelve years of reliable corrosion protection for Navy wet shafting.
Lifecycle cost savings are estimated at $750,000 per ship per 12 year cycle based upon eliminating a waterborne shaft overhaul during this interval. Engineering change activities are currently underway to incorporate the new covering system into the shipyards’ manufacturing and repair procedures.
On average 469 shafts are now replaced or repaired every 7 years at a cost of $64,000 to $192,450 per shaft relative to the shaft size. By eliminating one or two repair cycles for each shaft and extending the frequency of each docking cycle, the total estimated repair cost savings is $6M per year across the fleet."
can u understand USN ''a twelve year docking cycle'' mean during this cycle,
the ship will be done this and that.The ship will only spend some times
in dock,not 12 years lah.US is better than Oz in ship buildings.
For Oz,''docking'' clearly mean inside the dock lah.
For combatant ship,guns or missiles still can be fired even the ship
inside the dock to defend your country.
For sub,it is very risky if u fire torpedos in dock.
''No. of weeks required
FCD = Full-Cycle Docking--52
MCD = Mid-Cycle Docking--5''
Pl note ''docking'' ,not ''cycle''.My dear.
2.''The sea-days performance of the submarines reached an
all-time high of 695 days (89%)''Again ,u need to decode the meaning.
In the latest ASC annual report,2007 Annual Report
PDF - 5.6MBhttp://www.asc.com.au/aspx/about_us_annual_report.aspx
In Chairman reoport,he said
''The sea-days performance of the submarines reached an
all-time high of 695 days''This mean each sub ,on average,spent 116 days a year for
sea-days performance.
Then what does 89% mean?
In the page 3 to 5 Performance Summary chart,Sea Days chart,
Performance
Summaryu can read ''89% days achieved''
I think it mean the % of subs went to sea when it is out of docks!!
Not 89% of time in the whole year on sailing!!
''The sea-days performance of the submarines reached an
all-time high of 695 days''clearly indicate the total no.of days that all the subs can sail---a good 695 days.
u have to read DOM reports what were their capabilty in this period.
Collins Class Submarines
The third full year under the submarine
Through-Life Support (TLS) contract has
seen ASC complete the transition from the
submarine builder to the Commonwealth’s
trusted provider of TLS for the Collins Class.
ASC sees its open, alliance-style relationship
with the Commonwealth as providing a
platform for delivering better than ‘business
as usual’ performance.
During the year, ASC completed 11
maintenance availabilities, with all delivered
on time and on budget. The sea-days
performance of the submarines reached an
all-time high of 695 days (89%). This represents
a significant improvement and underscores
ASC’s effectiveness in delivering operational
outputs for the Royal Australian Navy (RAN).bbb
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Originally posted by lionnoisy:
can u understand USN ''a twelve year docking cycle'' mean during this cycle,
the ship will be done this and that.The ship will only spend some times
in dock,not 12 years lah.US is better than Oz in ship buildings.
For Oz,''docking'' clearly mean inside the dock lah.
For combatant ship,guns or missiles still can be fired even the ship
inside the dock to defend your country.
For sub,it is very risky if u fire torpedos in dock.
''No. of weeks required
FCD = Full-Cycle Docking--52
MCD = Mid-Cycle Docking--5''
Pl note ''docking'' ,not ''cycle''.My dear.
2.''The sea-days performance of the submarines reached an
all-time high of 695 days (89%)''Again ,u need to decode the meaning.
In the latest ASC annual report,2007 Annual Report
PDF - 5.6MBhttp://www.asc.com.au/aspx/about_us_annual_report.aspx
In Chairman reoport,he said
''The sea-days performance of the submarines reached an
all-time high of 695 days''This mean each sub ,on average,spent 116 days a year for
sea-days performance.
Then what does 89% mean?
In the page 3 to 5 Performance Summary chart,Sea Days chart,
Performance
Summaryu can read ''89% days achieved''
I think it mean the % of subs went to sea when it is out of docks!!
Not 89% of time in the whole year on sailing!!
''The sea-days performance of the submarines reached an
all-time high of 695 days''clearly indicate the total no.of days that all the subs can sail---a good 695 days.
u have to read DOM reports what were their capabilty in this period.
bbb
Your level of comprehension is astounding, you are still in the SAF because nobody else in the private sector will take you.
For your sake, it's best that you sign on permanently, I doubt many employers will take you.
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Limited shipyards capable to buils and assembly:
If u trust Oz official report
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You still don't understand the meaning of docking cycle.
A cycle is the completion of a period, it is NOT the period it was in port. A 52 week full cycle means, it takes 52 weeks for the completion of the cycle before the submarine needs full cycle docking, there could be mid-cycle docking in between to carry out other maintenance work.
Just like cars, they have timing belts that need to replaced every 70,000 km. Ships would need to have certain things replaced like propellors or other movable parts.
"The JCEC technical meeting in June has been arranged as a tour of the ASC Pty Ltd facilities at Osborne. We have been advised that two submarines will be onsite during our visit: HMAS WALLER is currently in the outfit shop for its full docking cycle (FCD), while HMAS DECHAINEUX will be on hardstand at the end of May in preparation for its FCD. While visitors are not permitted onboard, the tour will include the hardstand, outfit and hull shops. "
http://www.raci.org.au/sa/JCEC/May_2006_JCEC_newsletter.pdf
If you insist that 52 weeks full cycle docking means the period the submarine was docked, fair enough then.
Tell me what is the period for their full docking cycle (the period they need to go back do a full cycle)? 1 year?
You obviously don't drive.
