Nevermind the Olympics. War has broken out in Europe
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Great, a new cold war is brewing...i wonder which side Singapore will take. Gotta get used vodka now..
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Vodka is a Polish invention, and it's also produced in Sweden, Finland, Estonia and many other places...
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Originally posted by 4Justice:
That may be so, but you don't see US invading Cuba.
Yeah, tell that to Iraq. The invasion of Iraq is by and far as illegal as it can get. The Russians at least had a bloody excuse since the Georgians were stupid enough to fire first. And by the way, Cuba is still under heavy sanctions. -
Originally posted by Kuali Baba:
I'm looking at it from the perspective of Russia's neighbours. I don't claim to be an authority but I have friends in those countries and I follow what goes on there. Don't you know why Moscow is disliked so much in the first place?
Humbug. The reason why the Scandinavians don't like Russia too much, is partly Sweden and Russia were duking out for a good part of the Medieval ages. Excuses include crusades to convert the heathen Russians who practice Orthodox Catholicism etc. The Germans under the Teutonic knights launched multiple invasions into Russia as well. A good part of the Cold War includes anti-Russian propaganda which is still pretty much there. Within the Soviet Union and the Russian Empire under the Tsars, there has always been secessionist movements. They were either squashed or controlled but they were let free during the collapse of the Soviet Union. Of course, once the genie is out of the bottle, it can't go back. Not everyone in those states like the way things are and are pro-Russian, which is why you have S. Ossetia. Even the Eastern regions of Ukraine are heavily pro-Russian and would very much like to go back to Russia. Doesn't help that many of them have families across the border. -
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And to add insult to injury to Faux news, notoriously right wing in the America and determined to slander any opponent of American neoconservatives, they had to interview someone who escaped the Georgian bombing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8XI2Chc6uQ
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Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:
Humbug. The reason why the Scandinavians don't like Russia too much, is partly Sweden and Russia were duking out for a good part of the Medieval ages. Excuses include crusades to convert the heathen Russians who practice Orthodox Catholicism etc. The Germans under the Teutonic knights launched multiple invasions into Russia as well. A good part of the Cold War includes anti-Russian propaganda which is still pretty much there. Within the Soviet Union and the Russian Empire under the Tsars, there has always been secessionist movements. They were either squashed or controlled but they were let free during the collapse of the Soviet Union. Of course, once the genie is out of the bottle, it can't go back. Not everyone in those states like the way things are and are pro-Russian, which is why you have S. Ossetia. Even the Eastern regions of Ukraine are heavily pro-Russian and would very much like to go back to Russia. Doesn't help that many of them have families across the border.I'm not even talking about the Scandinavian countries.
Anyway, back to your last assertion. That's because many of them moved about and settled there when they were under the USSR to assist in industrialisation and militarisation. Since then some have moved back to Russia; of those who stayed on many refuse to integrate with the rest of the country, yet whine about being stateless, discriminated etc. Read up about Russification...and don't forget about the peoples who were displaced, deported and made refugees in the process.
And for a change, try to imagine being in a country which can't even relocate a Soviet monument without Moscow crying foul over it, which is constantly reminded to be "grateful" to the Soviets for liberating it from the Nazis. Go and look all this up in the histories and foreign relations of other East European countries for yourself before scoffing.
So, going back to your original point which I contested on the last page...the USA may be making use of them for the former's own ulterior purposes, but there is more than one reason why they are protecting themselves with their former occupier.
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Originally posted by Kuali Baba:
I'm not even talking about the Scandinavian countries.
Anyway, back to your last assertion. That's because many of them moved about and settled there when they were under the USSR to assist in industrialisation and militarisation. Since then some have moved back to Russia; of those who stayed on many refuse to integrate with the rest of the country, yet whine about being stateless, discriminated etc. Read up about Russification...and don't forget about the peoples who were displaced, deported and made refugees in the process.
And for a change, try to imagine being in a country which can't even relocate a Soviet monument without Moscow crying foul over it, which is constantly reminded to be "grateful" to the Soviets for liberating it from the Nazis. Go and look all this up in the histories and foreign relations of other East European countries for yourself before scoffing.
So, going back to your original point which I contested on the last page...the USA may be making use of them for the former's own ulterior purposes, but there is more than one reason why they are protecting themselves with their former occupier.
What's new about Russification? Just about any country does that, and even the USA isn't a stranger to indoctrinating their own citizens.
As for Estonia and many E. European countries, many of them are doing what the Taiwanese did under Chen Shui Bian; deliberately erasing culture. The Ukrainian president has been busy glorifying Nazi collaborators who assisted the Nazis in mass slaughter of Slavs. Do you think the situation is that simple? Mind you, another fact that the West has deliberately tried to trivialise was the Nazis were mass exterminating Slavs when they went East. One of the reasons why they did that? Why, how else can you make German officers who were imprisoned and then set free to run the German Army, to cooperate with you? -
Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:
What's new about Russification? Just about any country does that, and even the USA isn't a stranger to indoctrinating their own citizens.
As for Estonia and many E. European countries, many of them are doing what the Taiwanese did under Chen Shui Bian; deliberately erasing culture. The Ukrainian president has been busy glorifying Nazi collaborators who assisted the Nazis in mass slaughter of Slavs. Do you think the situation is that simple? Mind you, another fact that the West has deliberately tried to trivialise was the Nazis were mass exterminating Slavs when they went East. One of the reasons why they did that? Why, how else can you make German officers who were imprisoned and then set free to run the German Army, to cooperate with you?Moscow moved Russians into those countries and altered the ethnic composition of their populations, and instead of encouraging the stateless people who haven't moved back to do so, it supports them when they stir shit there.
Erasing culture? The Soviets suppressed the original cultures and supplanted them with their own. And all the Estonian government did in the events of spring last year was to move the Bronze Soldier and the remains underneath to a military graveyard.
There is no concrete evidence that Shukhevych and the OUN collaborated with the Gestapo in the Massacre of Lviv, and in February this year declassified documents that contradicted the accusation were released.
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the russkies are destroying the georgian military infrastructure currently, (from straits times) .. not sure if its because of the media.. but it seems that russia is pushing it.
much media about this issue have been pro-georgian right?
perhaps with the decimation of much of the georgian military equipment, georgia would be able to reorganise their supplies or smth...
the straits times commented that NATO countries are "weak and poorly armed" to what extent is that true? would NATO be able to react in any significant manner to retaliate against the russians? lets say if they start doing the same to the others too....
sorry for saying so much, its the common test period, so i hardly have time to post... just my 2 cents (though i still read everyday, thank gosh its chinese tml! = nth to study)
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This Georgia must have been promised by US already. If not they won't dare to agitate Russia.
But now it is too late for them to see the empty promise from US already. Their navy is totally gone.
George invade south ossetia one day before Olympic, if I were Putin, I also angry lah.
I think ah, the best way is to remain status quo, those ex-soviet countries to stop joining NATO, just remains neutral technically. -
Some of you guys got no sense of history. This whole S.Ossetia episode is nothing but a re-run of the Sudetenland Crisis in 1938.
Appeasement policies by good ol' chap Chamberlain marched the world right into World War 2. Russia is in exactly the same position Nazi Germany was back then. Strong, but unsure. It was only after the world collapsed and gave in and handed over Sudetenland, that She decided that that action was sufficient indication of Her strength and ability to intimidate the rest of the free world. That led to the total annexation of Czechoslovakia.
Yes, sure, lets just GIVE South Ossetia to Russia. Might as well start digging graves for ourselves and get ready to jump in. Cos when the sh!t hits the fan, we're probably not gonna have time to even put on a radiation suit. -
Most of the formal soviet states are coming to terms between modern statehood vs ethnic ties which tag along historical conflict so these states are essentially conflict zone. Georgia has seem its fare share of conflict and coup. It may not be a bad reason to instill statehood by including them into Nato. and let EU nations provide social and govmental restructuring to morden statehood.
Unfortunately Bush is so into this evangelical notion of armagaddon that he sees the threats from the sand and Hopping to kept Putin near him as “Friends” but he forgot that Once a KGB always a KGB. And they are the power behind Moscow.
i did read an article about highlighting example of a rerun of 1938. well we shall see what happen to the nearby states. Maybe Shevardnadze if he is not too old can appease both side
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Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:
Yeah, tell that to Iraq. The invasion of Iraq is by and far as illegal as it can get. The Russians at least had a bloody excuse since the Georgians were stupid enough to fire first. And by the way, Cuba is still under heavy sanctions.Iraq has oil. What does georgia have? And under heavy sanctions is still not the same as being invaded. So whats your point?
And the Americans already had lots of excuses due to the moral highground they were handed after 9/11.
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Originally posted by 4Justice:
Iraq has oil. What does georgia have? And under heavy sanctions is still not the same as being invaded. So whats your point?
And the Americans already had lots of excuses due to the moral highground they were handed after 9/11.
FYI: Georgia's got oil too.. Oil pipelines. Worth a lot too.
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lessons from Russia invaions---
collect INTEL
prepare well
dunt under estimate your enemy etc
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=defense&id=news/RUSS08208.xml
Russian Assault Reveals Weaknesses
Aug 20, 2008By David A. Fulghum [email protected]
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i don't think Georgia gov underestimate russian military i think Georgia miscaculate the response from Russia.
But i think this is just a temporary cease fire i believe this war could spread further into other states.