Why USN Littoral Combat Ship Freedom looks not so stealth?
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In fact, it seems that the only reason you are trying to bash the LCS is because you need to find something to feel good about the RSN instead of having any real logical case to make against it.
This is not too unlike the kind of people we meet who criticise other systems not because they are really flawed, but because they few threatened that these things will be better or more popular then what they like. Your nonsense in the SAR-21 vs Tavor thread, and now here, is pretty much a shining example of that.
You are like a six-year old.
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Don't quite see the need to compare both platforms since they fulfill different requirements by their respective navies.
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Originally posted by 16/f/lonely:
Don't quite see the need to compare both platforms since they fulfill different requirements by their respective navies.
Well apparently some kid in here sees the need to make a Singapore vs. everything issue of just about anything. -
Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:
Well apparently some kid in here sees the need to make a Singapore vs. everything issue of just about anything.
As fas as I can see, the modular design started way back, from the Spruance class, although this is really more advanced now. The Spraunce lay-out was used for the Kidd, Ticonderoga and the Arleigh Burke.The advantage is not so much in the interchangeability of the weapons suites, but rather to keep in line with the "cost-saving" measures. Imagine you don't have to design different hulls for different suites but you can use the same hull for different suites. That's the concept behind modular designs.
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Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:
An anti-mine LCS is not going to be operating alone without conventional cover from ASW or conventionally configured ships. The idea, which seems to be lost out on you not because it's hard to understand but because you just insist on trying to turn white to black and ending up not only failing that but making yourself look bad, is that the LCS was intended to be a platform that can be configured to multiple tasks, greatly saving on operating costs as well as affording flexibility instead of having to cart in multiple ships of different classes for one role.
Yeah, I concur. That's exactly what I said, too. LCS gives flexibility. It's not meant to be some 'supership'.
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Originally posted by 16/f/lonely:
As fas as I can see, the modular design started way back, from the Spruance class, although this is really more advanced now. The Spraunce lay-out was used for the Kidd, Ticonderoga and the Arleigh Burke.The advantage is not so much in the interchangeability of the weapons suites, but rather to keep in line with the "cost-saving" measures. Imagine you don't have to design different hulls for different suites but you can use the same hull for different suites. That's the concept behind modular designs.
For some reason lionnoisy makes a big who-ha when the Yanks take this technology further and actually implement hulls that can be configured as an when they are needed in short order. But oh wait, he's more known for having more noise then knowledge on the subject matter.
What is funnier is that he's trying to paint this as a major disadvantage of the class when by any measure it is actually its strongest point. As opposed to having to constantly operate ships of differing types or finding a shortfall in certain hull classes when a certain need arises, the USN can now configure it's flexible hulls to tailor to their needs as and when they need, allowing them force-to-task-suitability that is otherwise not possible with having multiple redundant ship types.
What is pure comedy he misses out the entire point of the concept and instead relies soley on his "what if, anyday, anytime" a single lone LCS faces a task that it is not configured for?
Might as well ask the same question of our Formidible frigates. What if one day, "anyday, anytime" our Formidibles find themselves in a minefield and realize that they are not an anti-mining ship?
What rubbish.
Oh I am sure the largest navy in the world with the biggest budget and most powerful sensor network would somehow send out lone littorial ships with absolutely no support whatsoever to get surprised by the enemy.
The greater rubbish is that he tries to say that 24 hours to change the ship's role is too much due to how "quickly" war can break out. Not only does he not explain how on earth this war is breaking out, he simply assumes as he does before, that mysterous stealth ships and planes will suddenly appear out of nowhere and show the "unsuitability" of whatever system he happens to fix his illogical gaze upon.
Seriously... which power in the world is going to try to "surprise" the USN? And which navy goes to war within 24 hours? To sail the fleet to any location takes months of prep in harbour as well as actual sailing to location. If the LCS is going to war, the USN would have had plenty of time to prepare it for the intended task.
Might as well say that all citizens in Singapore need to have a SAR-21 by their side at all times because "anyday, anytime" war can break out and going to our camps and drawing our weapons will take too much time.
Seriously, this guy is totally pwned in here.
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i do hope any navy get plenty of time to prepare for actions--
be it a war,peace keeping or dissater relief!!
But RSN shall not count on this 'PAUSE' mind set.
We are not playing computer game where u can
press pause button whenever u like.
This is a bloody war and we have only ONE chance.Full stop.
Ask Kuwait people then u know why even SG baby shall
be armed,like MY politician said!!
How many days of notice that Georgia and Russia get
in the recent crisis?
I dunt have a crystal ball,bro!!
Janes Fighting Ship 2008/2009
The comments in Ex Summary looks not so look for this
first in class ship!!
But Danish Navy find this idea works??
http://www.navalteam.dk/ships/std_flex_concept.aspx
Questions
The biggest block for human being to advance is not to
challenge authority.USN is very big.So what!!
This dunt mean everything they do is right.
Look at their sub prime crisis then u know the quality
of their leaders.
Their concept is out to sea by group.So u cant find air defense
modules in LCS.What if the AA ships cant work?Then u put whole
group at the mercy of enemy aircraft!!
I like SG'' 3 functions in 1 platform'' Frigate which can AA,ASW and ASUW.
It can be independent any where and anytime,without other platfroms
providing protections.This is true flexibilty!!
Besides it can act as Combat Center for other sea,land and air platforms.
I dunt mean it can defend any attacks.But they have to calculate the risks
if they want to attack.At least the 3 functions are there and can work!!
They know our mainteance level.Right?
Only 3 million citizens.What to do?
1.Right time and right place---Danish Navy said 8 hours.LCS contract document
said not more than 4 days.One day is not a obligation.
Even it is a obligation,what can DOD do with the giant contractor
of LM and GD if they fail to deliver?
If situation permit the time for right module to be delivered and installed?
Can the module be delivered at the right place and the right time?
2.Escorts
In game ,u can assume u control the whole theater.
In reality,u can risk the lives of any cresw.
Can u control the route of delivery,be it by sea or by air,
or even by sub?How many escort u need to accompany delivery platform?
Dunt forget u also have to deliver modules crews to operate
the modules.There are 7 main modules for ASW,MIW and ASUW.
There is CORE CREW,not more than 40,to operate LSC.
I cant imagne how u transfer heavy modules,which is in 20
feet container or alike and the modules crews,from a ship
or heli.in a rough sea and bad weather?
After the op,u also have to remove and transfer the module container
and the Modules Crew back to waiting area.
Initially,USN think of shore pier or sea pier for delivering
installing the modules.
u can read from link 4 below that the top brass in USN said if one of
the module cant work.Then it is ok.
pl read link 5 for opposition views .
references
1 http://lexingtoninstitute.org/docs/lcs_final.pdf
2. http://www.lockheedmartin.com/data/assets/14170.pdf
3 http://search.military.com/search/milcom.html?words=Littoral+Combat+Ship&x=16&y=13
4 http://peoships.crane.navy.mil/lcs/LCS_Forum1.htm
5 www.military.com/NewContent/0,13190,NI_LCS_0203,00.html
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wah piang eh
when u see RSN got 'pause' want ???
when the tsunami hits,SAF is ready to send out humantarian aid...
you got see SAF say cannot when the tsunami hit indo ???
less than 24hrs,SAF send a LST and equiments into bandah aceh to help the locals to cope.. and also send another 2 LST to the area... Total 3 LST was deployed
SAF also got send C130 to phuket to work with the thais to help its ppl...
please lah,when u want to create threads like this,plz ownself edit and add comments to your thread... You cannot summarise the artical ????
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lionnoisy is obviously talking rubbish again.
You talk so much about needing to be on the spot all the time and no time taken to change stuff, but do you even have any idea how many days it actually takes to reach the spot? There is more then enough time to change the module of the ship in safe waters.
What makes you think that the USN will not operate a significant number of different LCS types in the first place? The main advantage of this system is that it allows in field changes of ship roles, a task that is previously impossible if you sail into the area (which will take days anyway)
In game ,u can assume u control the whole theater.
In reality,u can risk the lives of any cresw.
Can u control the route of delivery,be it by sea or by air,
or even by sub?How many escort u need to accompany delivery platform?
Dunt forget u also have to deliver modules crews to operate
the modules.There are 7 main modules for ASW,MIW and ASUW.
There is CORE CREW,not more than 40,to operate LSC.
I cant imagne how u transfer heavy modules,which is in 20
feet container or alike and the modules crews,from a ship
or heli.in a rough sea and bad weather?
Trying to invent problems again?
Unfortunately while you try to spout problems, in reality these are already issues that are long solved.
Do you know that in practice the refit and resupply of SSNs in war will actually take place out in the open sea with submarine tenders instead of having to sail back to port?
Obviously the issues with refitting and resupplying ships out at sea have how been solved since the USN started doing this decades back. What is an LCS modules and crew transfer to them?
An LCS module is chicken feet as opposed to the task of needing to load explosive ADCAPS and Harpoons onto a low-in-the-water SSN as opposed to a surface combatant.
You are just trying to invent problems. I might as well say our SAR-21's reliance on batteries means that it's useless in the field once bad weather prevents the SAF from supplying us with our AA batteries to let our LADs work.
Their concept is out to sea by group.So u cant find air defense
modules in LCS.What if the AA ships cant work?Then u put whole
group at the mercy of enemy aircraft!!
I like SG'' 3 functions in 1 platform'' Frigate which can AA,ASW and ASUW.
It can be independent any where and anytime,without other platfroms
providing protections.This is true flexibilty!!
What makes you think the AA ships can't work? Suddenly get a lionnoisy computer virus?
Isn't the same logic going to apply to our own Formidibles if you want to mysteriously dream up nonsense problems for the LCS?
Our Formidibles are not a picture of true flexibility, it is a jack of all trades but master of none. Basically put the problem with multi-role ships of such small tonnage is that you are trying to cram multiple different roles into a single hull, meaning that in battle the Formidible actually only brings 1/3 of it's tonnage to put out into firepower into any given role at any one time while a specialized LCS can put in far more.
This is not flexibility, but simply old fashioned design. Our Formidibles are practically useless when faced with other forms of warfare such as anti-mine, but the LCS can simply be configured to that role.
The biggest block for human being to advance is not to
challenge authority.USN is very big.So what!!
This dunt mean everything they do is right.
Really, so how come your stand in Speaker's Corner is not to challange authority? What a big joke.
The biggest block for lionnoisy being to advance is not to use good logic and facts.
If you want to convince people that the LCS is such a bad idea, then use logic and facts to do it.
So how come so far all your logic and facts have produced things like ships needing to teleport to areas of trouble at any given time, launching F-18s off "mini-cvs", crashing FANTAIL into things, carrying SAR-21 by one handle in battle like a handbag and inline skate force?
LOL
So you think the USN is going to operate LCS without any configuration at all times until times of war? I think you're not thinking at all.
Basically and I say this again, the LCS is supposed to give the USN an inexpensive, littorial ship to operate with the capacity to change its roles as and when needed to reduce on having redundant hull types or needing to build more ships to fufill a specialized role.
If you don't want to accept this or think it's an unworkable concept for the simple reason the RSN or ST does not have it and it's threatening the imaginary popularity or "superiority" of the small brown water navy of a certain island nation then it's really your loss, you are the one who needs to constantly decieve yourself and remain blind and ignorant, choosing only to see the world through the "anything SAF does is good and if other militaries perform better or have better ideas they are flawed and stupid ideas because I need to feel good about my own SAF" glasses.
Obviously all this is lost out on you who sits in one corner sucking your lollipop and repeating the same, debunked and lously points over and over again.
I don't think the USN makes good choices all the time, but quite obviously, their rate of making good choices far exceeds your own, lionnoisy.
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Basically put you are trying to come up with lame excuses to slam the LCS when anybody with basic logic or knowledge will see that most of your points are rubbish.
You said forums are to inform, educate and entertain. How come then you not only fail to inform or educate yourself after three years in here, but seem to become worse, ending up seeming more uninformed and uneducated?
The only thing you seem to do great in here is in entertaining others with your repeated mistakes.
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no time to answer so many questions now.
i want to ask experts here do we really need mine hunter
and mine sweeper made of timber or wood?
USN mine hunters are all made of timber!!
If so,why LCS can turn to mine hunter with metal hull?
Is the risk worth the benefits??
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Originally posted by lionnoisy:
no time to answer so many questions now.
i want to ask experts here do we really need mine hunter
and mine sweeper made of timber or wood?
USN mine hunters are all made of timber!!
If so,why LCS can turn to mine hunter with metal hull?
Is the risk worth the benefits??
No time to answer? More like you cannot answer.
You obviously have no idea wha you are talking about.
You ask questions it seems not to learn stuff, but try to find problems.
I notice when no problems are found you don't really show any more interest in the topic, but when the slightest possibility of any problem exposes yourself, you will just keep roaring and spamming the forum with nonsense.
BTW, there are many metal hulled minesweepers, so this is nothing new.
New to you prehaps.
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Also how come you can search high and low in the net for problems, but don't devote the same amount of energy towards finding the obvious solutions that should be easier for you to find?
Degaussing
Degaussing is the process of decreasing or eliminating an unwanted magnetic field. It is named after Carl Friedrich Gauss, an early researcher in the field of magnetism. Due to magnetic hysteresis it is generally not possible to reduce a magnetic field completely to zero, so degaussing typically induces a very small "known" field referred to as bias.
Degaussing ship's hulls
The term was first used by (then) Cmdr. Charles F. Goodeve, RCNVR, during World War II while trying to counter the German magnetic mines that were playing havoc with the British fleet. The mines detected the increase in magnetic field when the steel in a ship concentrated the Earth's magnetic field over it. Goodeve developed a number of systems to induce a small "N-pole up" field into the ship to offset this effect, meaning that the net field was the same as background. Since the Germans used the gauss as the unit of the strength of the magnetic field in their mines' triggers (this was not yet a standard measure), Goodeve referred to the various processes to counter the mines as degaussing. The term became a common word.
The original method of degaussing was to install electromagnetic coils into the ships, known simply as coiling. In addition to being able to continually bias the ship, coiling also allowed the bias field to be reversed in the southern hemisphere, where the mines were set to detect "S-pole down" fields. British ships, notably cruisers and battleships, were well protected by about 1943.
Installing such special equipment was, however, far too expensive and difficult to service all ships that would need it, so the navy developed an alternative called wiping (devised by Goodeve), which simply dragged a large electrical cable along the side of the ship with about 2000 amps flowing through it. This induced the proper field into the ship in the form of a slight bias. It was originally thought that the pounding of the sea and the ship's engines would slowly randomize this field, but in testing this was found not to be a real problem. A more serious problem was later realized: as a ship travels through the Earth's magnetic field it will slowly pick up that field, counteracting the effects of the degaussing. From then on captains were instructed to change direction as often as possible to avoid this problem. Nevertheless the bias did wear off eventually, and ships had to be degaussed on a schedule. Smaller ships continued to use wiping through the war.
Controlpanel of the MES-device ("Magnetischer Eigenschutz" German: magnetic self-protection) in a German submarine
After the war the capabilities of the magnetic fuses were greatly improved, by detecting not the field itself, but changes in it. This meant a degaussed ship with a magnetic "hot spot" would still set off the mine. Additionally, the precise orientation of the field was also measured, something a simple bias field could not remove, at least for all points on the ship. A series of ever-increasingly complex coils were introduced to offset these effects, with modern systems including no fewer than three separate sets of coils to reduce the field in all axes.
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http://lmlcsteam.com/photo_gallery/sea_trials/index.html
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Originally posted by lionnoisy:
http://lmlcsteam.com/photo_gallery/sea_trials/index.html
Hey lionnoisy, how come you suddenly so quiet about degaussing metal hulls for demining work?
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Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:
Hey lionnoisy, how come you suddenly so quiet about degaussing metal hulls for demining work?
busy later lah.
see the LCS ship designer
http://www.gibbscox.com/news.htm
builder
http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=mtw&d=t
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Busy?
More like don't know.
Also note you have a very big backlog of threads in which you have not answered to. You made a lot of noise, and when debunked you didn't dare to make any more response.
Why?
Too busy?
You don't seem very busy when you are posting stuff that does not even take much effort for people to debunk, and then when asked to answer to real questions you are suddenly too busy?
LOL, don't make excuses lah.
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Hmm apparently your "later lah" is not going to happen.
You very busy is it? Can post a long and useless thread in your other topic but can't even finish answering the question on degaussing in here?
How come?
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LoL. SgT-rex should be awarded the SgForums, resident Lion Tamer award.
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no worry.i wont run away.
i have fighting spirit like SG team!!
In summary,as u said,SG ship is junk and USN is great.
Have u read the interviews i posted here with RADM?
Under the LSC contract,the re configurating can take up to
4 days.1 day is just a good will gesture,but not contractual obligations.
LSC need to fix equipments,like guns.in rough seas and even bad
weather.If u think ok,then it is ok.
LSC canNOT operate independently
u will tell me this is USN .Their fighting concept is different.
Well.U may be right.Then u need other ship or ships to protect
LSC in ''littoral battlespace''.Tell me ,which USN ships are suitable
to operate in ''littoral battlespace''?
Whe u get the flexbility of changing fighting modules,
dunt forget the other restrictions,ie must go in a group.
BTW,what is ''presence missions''?
http://www.ussfreedom.org/what-is-lcs
It will operate with Carrier Strike Groups, Surface Action Groups, in groups of other similar ships, or independently for diplomatic and presence missions. Additionally, it will have the capability to operate cooperatively with the U.S. Coast Guard and Allies.
LSC Freedom will be commissioned in this Nov.
jjj
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no worry.i wont run away.
i have fighting spirit like SG team!!
You are nothing like the SG team.
This is because the SG team trains and prepares for their game, you on the other hand rush into each and every single post without doing your homework or bothering to put up a decent argument.
If the SG team is like you, then we will be going into the Olympics without having even known the rules of the game, or having trained for it.
LSC canNOT operate independently
u will tell me this is USN .Their fighting concept is different.
Well.U may be right.Then u need other ship or ships to protect
LSC in ''littoral battlespace''.Tell me ,which USN ships are suitable
to operate in ''littoral battlespace''?
Which navy sends out singular ships without support in an actual battle? The USN does not do it, the RAN does not do it, and the RSN for sure does NOT do it. Our Formidibles are not supposed to operate on their own, nor are any of our ships. The exception to this rule is submarines, which work better on their own.
But I am not surprised you put such a argument, given it seems that you have this very wrong idea about navies is that they send out single ships out to sea with no support in sight for thousands of miles.
Does this look like the USN operates ships on their own as part of their SOP? When you hear of naval exercises do you hear about ship A vs ship B anytime, anyday or fleet vs fleet operations based on possible real world senariaos?
And use your common sense, a fleet of LSCs configured for different mission profiles can protect each other, something you would have EASILY found out had you even bothered to read anyhing about the LCS:
It is designed to be a fast, maneuverable and networked surface combatant for missions such as mine warfare, anti-submarine warfare, surface warfare and humanitarian relief.
What is your understanding of networked? That the USN will operate singular LCS will stray far out into the ocean to face anyday, anyhow enemies?
If the Singapore table tennis team plays like you make your posts in here, they will lose all their games 0-11, and then they'll make excuses like being "layman" or the like. Maybe you need to learn something from them called "honest and proper hard work" and not just make many useless and pointless posts and try to pass off your laziness to actually make a proper argument as "fighting spirit".
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Under the LSC contract,the re configurating can take up to
4 days.1 day is just a good will gesture,but not contractual obligations.
LSC need to fix equipments,like guns.in rough seas and even bad
weather.If u think ok,then it is ok.
Of course it's okay. Do you seriously think that the USN, with the MOST experience in the world refitting ships out at sea. But use your common sense, you don't always have to refit the ships at sea, the nearest friendly dock is always a possibility.
The main advantage of modular ships are strategic, not tactical. This means that the USN has the ability to configure their fleet and project force for takes in timeframes not previously possibile as well as doing it at far less cost. Try seeing the forrest and not the trees son.
And why your constant harping on bad weather and rough seas? I don't see you making the same argument about our Victory class ships that are poorly equipped to handle rough seas and bad weather compared to other surface combatants? Why? The sun only shines for the RSN ah?
Unfortunately for you, you seem to think a lot of things are not ok but then they still turn out ok.
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And BTW you are still running away.
You still haven't answered on degaussing for mines, why you ask if metal hulls are okay when degaussing has been around since WW2?
Interestingly how come you are also quiet on the fact that despite being in the same weight class, the LCS is significantly faster then the our Formidable frigates? Our Formidable can only max out at 27 knots while the LCS can go up to 50, which is nearly twice as fast.
Never do your homework and think you can anyhow ask questions rite?
Please answer, or are you going to run away again?
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Oh wait, you forgot to mention about LCS 2 as well:
The design for Independence (LCS 2) is based on a proven high-speed trimaran hull built by Austal (Henderson, Australia). The 127-meter surface combatant design calls for a crew of fewer than 40 sailors, while the trimaran hull should enable the ship to reach sustainable speeds of nearly 50 knots (60 mph/90 km/h) and range as far as 10,000 nautical miles (20,000 km).
With 11,000 cubic meters of payload volume the ship is designed with twice the objective payload and volume so that it can carry out one mission while a separate mission module is in reserve. The large flight deck, 1,030 square meters (11,100 sf), will support operation of two SH-60 helicopters, unmanned vehicles, or large CH-53 class helicopters. The stable trimaran hull will allow flight operations in high sea conditions.
Fixed core capabilities will be carried for self-defense and command and control. However unlike traditional fighting ships with fixed armament such as guns and missiles, innovative and tailored mission modules will be configured for one mission package at a time. Modules may consist of manned aircraft, unmanned vehicles, off-board sensors, or mission-manning detachments - all in an expandable open systems architecture.
The large interior volume and payload is greater than larger destroyers and is sufficient to serve as a high-speed transport and maneuver platform. The mission bay is 11,800 square feet (1,100 m2), and takes up most of the deck below the hangar and flight deck.
In addition to cargo or container-sized mission modules, the bay can carry four lanes of multiple Strykers, armored Humvees, and their associated troops. An elevator allows air transport of packages the size of a twenty-foot long shipping container that can be moved into the mission bay while at sea. A side access ramp allows for vehicle roll-on/roll-off loading to a dock. The habitability area is under the bridge with bunks for many personnel.
And note the LCS 2 can do all this while actually being LIGHTER then our Formidable as well as twice as fast with greater range, twice the ASW helicopter capacity as well as supporting other aircraft our Formidable does not have. It is also capable of carrying out RO/RO and transport operations that our Formidable cannot do.
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are u guys with the RSN?
i was with the CPC 183/186 squadron back in the pulau brani days.
why talk about weapons? everyday sail u buey sian meh?
