Why USN Littoral Combat Ship Freedom looks not so stealth?
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03 Feb 2009
USS Independence (LCS 2)
Retired Admiral James Lyons had a piece up in the Washington Times on Sunday
''James Lyons, U.S. Navy retired admiral, was commander in chief of the U.S. Pacific Fleet,''helps me to prove that
1.LCS is NOT so stealth.
2.Also,he said the umbrella concept cant work.
Sg Ty once mentioned the umbrella concept can give LCS full protection.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/feb/01/ship-shopping-list/
Despite the stated requirement for stealth, it is not optimized in either of the LCS prototypes. Both ships display relatively large radar targets. The mono-hull (Lockheed) is derived from a fast yacht hull form and unsurprisingly, stealth was not an important consideration. The trimaran variant (General Dynamics) provides a radar "tunnel" to amplify the radar return from the ship when observed from certain aspects.
Moreover, both hull forms have inherent large and/or noisy acoustic signatures. Further, both prototypes will have predictability large infrared signatures when operating at higher speeds. Neither of these prototypes has anything but a very limited "point" air defense capability. In today's expanding threat environment, any ship designed to be a 21st-century warship is fatally flawed that costs more than $550 million and does not incorporate multiple fire-control systems and a reasonable area air defense capability against stealthy cruise missiles. The argument that an air defense "umbrella" for the LCS will be provided by other air and surface platforms is suspect, if only because the LCS is touted as a precursor weapons system, intended to "sanitize" littoral waters.
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I have few questionson on USN latest,and first in class,
Littoral Combat Ship (LCS) Freedom.
Can LCS perform only one task at one time?
The mission modules will be able to be changed, tested and working within 24 hours. Northrop Grumman has been appointed as mission package integrator.
How many dunction can be carried out at any time?
Mine Warfare (MIW), Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW) and Anti-Surface Warfare (SUW).
pl read my 08.08.08 posting.
Dunt tell me u have to wait for equiments to be delivered,changed,
tested and fired to switch to other module!So far,it looks like it is the case!
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There are many features.I agree.But i am troubled by so many
,to me,permantly fixed objects on deck .The design of the ship
seem,to this layman again,not to reduce RCS.
In short,the design is not to achieve maximum stealth.
May be there are other technology alreday incorporated
in the design.May be they are waiting for future technology.
But too many objects seem not a good
way to reduce RCS.
Pl tell me more of the steath technology in this new class.
May be the first in class ship is just on trial mode.
In combat mode,the deck of the ship may be much
cleaner---free of objects to reduce RCS.
http://bbs.news.sina.com.cn/tableforum/App/view.php?bbsid=4&subid=0&fid=93662&tbid=6648
below:
http://www.lmlcsteam.com/photo_gallery/sea_trials/index.html
The dark marks seem exhaust outlets.Will they attract heat seeking
missiles?But pl bear in mind USN Freedom is only on Builder's sea
trail.They may in the course to iron out problems.
why SG frigate can be so clean on deck?
reference
http://www.lmlcsteam.com/media.html
pl read two doc in Downloads for more details
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/littoral/#littoral_17457
http://www.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=38819
My last question is:
can they do better,with their billion dollars budgets,technology
and two defense giants resources?
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Wah, is your eyes some kinda radar? You look only can see that its not stealthy....
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he got superman's eyes leh
all i can see that the USN's deck is quite clean compared to our own frigates,ours also neat leh..
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Originally posted by Shotgun:
Wah, is your eyes some kinda radar? You look only can see that its not stealthy....
He's Daredevil mah.
That's the only thing that explains his radar sense.
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Originally posted by gaoxingdcf07:
he got superman's eyes leh
all i can see that the USN's deck is quite clean compared to our own frigates,ours also neat leh..
Looking at the USN ship, it is interesting to note that the foxcle is exposed on the deck. That will affect RCS, definitely. In contrast our frigates have theirs buried within the hull, making the forward deck rather clean. As to how much this affects RCS, I won't know.And if I read correctly, then I do not doubt that our frigate is superior in many ways, but that's because the LCS design is biased towards "austere", "cost-saving" designs. These are just my observations.
Moreover it is interesting to note that this ship can act as a landing ship, mine-sweeper to name a few roles due to its modular design. Clearly, the LCS is a compromise between the different requirements, while our frigate......is what it is, albeit a light one.
Therefore, why compare?
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true true,each nations' need for thier navies...
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USA is not fond of "austere", "cost-saving" design in major
defense sys.I cant find this guideline in this project.
Can LCS perform only one task at one time?
This is a new idea.
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/littoral/#littoral_17457
The mission modules is interchangeable.
How many tasks can LCS perform at any one time?
Besides,it take 24 hour to change the fighting modules.
In time of conflict,do u have a luxury to wait for 24 hour
and will the required equipments can be delivered in
war zones at the right time and at the right place?
Will the sea state or bad weather hinder the delivery?
''LITTORAL COMBAT SHIP MISSION MODULES
The mission modules will be able to be changed, tested and working within 24 hours. Northrop Grumman has been appointed as mission package integrator.
The mission packages will be: Mine Warfare (MIW), Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW) and Anti-Surface Warfare (SUW).
The mission modules may be integrated into standard-sized containers that can be installed in the ship and other systems will be transferred onto the ship on pallets. The mission systems will be connected to the ship's network and communicate with the other ship systems and other surface ships and aircraft.''
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more photo here.
http://bbs.news.sina.com.cn/treeforum/App/view.php?fid=93855&tbid=3295&bbsid=4&subid=0
http://bbs.news.sina.com.cn/tableforum/App/view.php?bbsid=4&subid=0&fid=93855&tbid=3295
look at the observation platform and black marks,possible exhausts
and few ''openings''.
This will not help to reduce RCS.
above:I assume this is in Combat mode.But there are so many objects on deck.
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Dunt tell me u have to wait for equiments to be
delivered,
changed,
tested and
fired to switch to other module!
The mission packages will be: Mine Warfare (MIW), Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW) and Anti-Surface Warfare (SUW).
So far,it looks like it is the case!
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I think we are clear now.
Suppose u are the captain of LCS and in ,say, Mine Warfare mission package.
But u are now tasked to destory a sub few hundred miles away.
So a mission package of ASW will be delivered to u in rough sea
at scheduled time and designated location,by heli or ship.
When the package is delivered,your crews changed and tested
the sys and if everything ok.You go to hunt the sub.
Hopefully within 24 hours.What a genius!!
Can the benefits of
'' low manning and reduced operations and maintenance requirements''
off set the down sides:
1.u need logistic supports stand by and escorts for mission package
2.the risks that mission packages may not be delivered on time
and at the right place,due to war situation or sea state or bad weather.
3.Expose own platforms location.Platforms deliver mission package
may expose your location.---so we can explain why LCS looks
not so stealth.
4.Speed is essence in war.One minute is too late.
not to mention in hours.
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http://www.lmlcsteam.com/overview.html
A flexible and reconfigurable seaframe, LCS derives combat capability from rapidly interchangeable mission modules and an open architecture command and control system. Modularity maximizes the flexibility of LCS and enables commanders to meet changing warfare needs, while also supporting spiral development and technology refresh. LCS will be networked to share tactical information with other naval aircraft, ships, submarines, joint and coalition units and LCS groups, providing commanders with the right information quickly and efficiently. With low manning and reduced operations and maintenance requirements, LCS is an affordable means to increase fleet size.
http://www.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=38819
The seaframes will be outfitted with reconfigurable payloads, called mission packages, which can be changed out quickly. These mission packages focus on three mission areas: mine counter measures, surface warfare and anti-submarine warfare.
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It seem only one of the mission modules wil be carried.OMG
LM and GD is fighting for the final design.So there are two ships
called FCS.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/4272433.html
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/the-usas-new-littoral-combat-ships-updated-01343/#modules
Note graphic below :Large Mission Bay:Carries mission modules for ASW,MIW or SUW.
So one task at one time.
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Oh.This paper mention it may need crews for mission package.
So besides hardwares to be delivered,crews have to be delivered also.
http://www.csbaonline.org/4Publications/Archive/R.20040218.LCS/R.20040218.LCS.pdf
Naval Transformation
and the Littoral
Combat Ship
by
Robert O. WorkCenter for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments
February 2004 -
Here more on modules package
http://peoships.crane.navy.mil/lcs/documents.htm
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It it cheap or save money?
I have shown LM version USN Freedom
Just the design for GD version is US$79 m plus construction $223m.
http://www.austal.com/index.cfm?objectid=FDA9822A-A0CC-3C8C-D9EE95DE1D3BB2AD
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Hey Lionnoisy, why don't you write in and complain to the US NAVY that you think their LCS design is not STEALTHY enough.
I'm sure they are open to suggestions.
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nxt time please dun cut and paste the article...
see liao,headache...
same like storywolf
or u are the crone of storywolf???
also like to cut and paste wan !!
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Originally posted by Shotgun:
Hey Lionnoisy, why don't you write in and complain to the US NAVY that you think their LCS design is not STEALTHY enough.
I'm sure they are open to suggestions.
My English not so good lah.
The culture of US defense and politicians are Money and politics first.
If they are looking for the interest of the nations and their soldiers,
they would change or re designed their old aged rifle lah.
Look at your HP and computers.
How much it has been changed since 10 years ago,not to mention
20 yeas ago?How is the US legendary rifle has been changed
in the past 10 or 20 years?
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Originally posted by gaoxingdcf07:
nxt time please dun cut and paste the article...
see liao,headache...
same like storywolf
or u are the crone of storywolf???
also like to cut and paste wan !!
i think i have improved a little bit lah.
Tx for your kind reminder.
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This is a Jack of All Trade ship.
http://www.gdlcs.com/lcs_faq.html
The reconfiguration concept is very new,to me.
Pl read to know more.
The RADM just gave example of how good that LCS will be
in anti--mine operation.He said LCS can be put in anti--mine sys
now operated in destoryer and CV!!
I hope he could tell us what a LCS fitted with
anti -mine package will react, if a enemy sub or
ship approaching it in few hours.
Can the LCS Captain press the PAUSE button?
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http://peoships.crane.navy.mil/lcs/documents.htm
Q and A very long.
http://peoships.crane.navy.mil/lcs/news.htm
news
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Originally posted by lionnoisy:
My English not so good lah.
The culture of US defense and politicians are Money and politics first.
If they are looking for the interest of the nations and their soldiers,
they would change or re designed their old aged rifle lah.
Look at your HP and computers.
How much it has been changed since 10 years ago,not to mention
20 yeas ago?How is the US legendary rifle has been changed
in the past 10 or 20 years?
10 or 20 years?
Dude, you ever tried looking at our AMX-13 SM1 tanks?
Or our Challenger-class submarines?
Want to guess how old they are?
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Originally posted by lionnoisy:
I hope he could tell us what a LCS fitted with
anti -mine package will react, if a enemy sub or
ship approaching it in few hours.
Can the LCS Captain press the PAUSE button?
I think the LCS won't be totally useless against other threats even when it's carrying only one specialised module. Seriously, I don't think the US Navy is that stupid. It's gotta have some other defensive capabilities. Not very powerful, for sure, because if you wanna specialise with themodules, you have to give up other stuff like huge racks of missiles, but I like to think that the US Navy isn't suicidal.For example, if you look at the graphic posted by lionnoisy, the LCS has a helo hangar with space for Seahawk helicopters. Those can deal with some surface threats (eg small 3rd world nation missile boats) by firing anti-ship missiles. Those helos can hunt subs too. (Worst come to worst, there's that gun in front. Maybe can scare people away.)
Besides, I think the LCS isn't gonna work alone; it'll probably deployed in a aircraft carrier battle group, or escorted by crusiers or whatnot. Also, a group of LCS with different capibilities could well complement each other. For example, we can have one anti-surface ships, two anti-sub ships (because subs are worrying) and one mine ship as a composite battle group that can take care of itself.
So the concept is more or less okay in my book. The only thing is, yes, the turnaround time for the modules and the logistics will be a headache.
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This time he is getting pretty funny, he's trying to suggest that the RSN can trump the USN...
Lionnoisy as usual is putting up a lot of smoke and mirrors and showing us pretty much how little he knows about the subject, the LCS was never intended to be a jack-of-all-trades and master of none but instead a modular platform by which a navy can use to perform many different tasks that would require several different classes of ships of similar tonnage.
For example, instead of having many different classes of ships for various duties, the USN can now configure each and every system to its requirements. Some rouge nation mining international waters? Instead of waiting for days to cart a minesweeper over, you can save plenty of time by simply configuring one of your LCS to that task.
Additionally, what makes lionnoisy think that only one configuration of LCS will be operating alone? In typical naval operations you will have several different roles of LCS will be operating together.
As usual, he uses his "what if miracle naval ships appear next to a single LCS out of nowhere nonsense" that he likes to use so often, which simply does not happen in reality due to the way the USN operates. The only foolish one here it seems, is lionnoisy.
Simply put, lionnoisy might as well ask why that our SAF soldiers doing guard duty are only configured for one task, and that is anti-personnel. What if, one day, anytime an enemy tank suddenly appears right in front of them and all they have is their SAR-21?!! So he better suggest that they carry a MATADOR while prowing that is. What if enemy ROFLcopter suddenly appear? Our SAF soldiers better carry SAR-21 GL, MATADOR, and Igla manpad sams then and go about their rounds.
Pure and utter rubbish, just like him trying to suggest F-18s will be launched off "mini-cvs"
ROFLCOPTER!
If anything, lionnoisy seems to miss out that the LCS actually gives the USN great savings in terms of training, logistics and maintenence when it comes to operating one flexible ship type that can be configured for multiple tasks in response to the situtation as opposed to having a fleet with many different ship types that are stuck with you more or less for the duration of the war. In any case, note the idea of the LCS was to create a flexible and CHEAP class to run in lieu of using more expensive systems for tasks for which they would be overkill.
So what can I say about lionnoisy's hu-ha in here about the LCS?
Blown clear out of the water.
Say, for some reason lionnoisy is very quiet about how our Formidible stacks up against the USN Zumwalt class destroyers.
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Look at your HP and computers.
How much it has been changed since 10 years ago,not to mention
20 yeas ago?How is the US legendary rifle has been changed
in the past 10 or 20 years?
Look at our SAR-21 that the basic SAF soldier still uses.
How has it changed in the last 10 years since it's conception when so many advanced small-arms systems have come out?
Even the US M-16 has gone through numerous upgrades and actually have more advanced sighting systems then the SAR-21 the SAF trooper uses.
And for your information, some of our units still stuck with the US legendary rifle that is several versions below the current legendary version that the US is using.
So what's all this promise about the SAR-21 being the rifle the help the SAF into the 21st century? It's only 2008 and already it's falling behind.
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I hope he could tell us what a LCS fitted with
anti -mine package will react, if a enemy sub or
ship approaching it in few hours.
Can the LCS Captain press the PAUSE button?
I hope you can tell us what a RSN Minesweeper
will react, if a enemy sub or
ship approaching it in few hours.
Can RSN captain press the PAUSE button?
Use your common sense, the idea of LCS is not unlike the idea of modular small arms, in which one common platform can be configured for different roles from micro-SMG all the way to LMG. Not unlike the FN2000 or the Tavor.
An anti-mine LCS is not going to be operating alone without conventional cover from ASW or conventionally configured ships. The idea, which seems to be lost out on you not because it's hard to understand but because you just insist on trying to turn white to black and ending up not only failing that but making yourself look bad, is that the LCS was intended to be a platform that can be configured to multiple tasks, greatly saving on operating costs as well as affording flexibility instead of having to cart in multiple ships of different classes for one role.
For some reason this logic seems to be lost on you, who keep insisting that for some reason, all LCS operate alone and will somehow stumble across something they are not equipped for.
Can you push the pause button before you make anymore mistakes?
