S'pore wants to buy 100 of world's most advanced fighters
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Originally posted by bloodsucker:
Have u any idea wha you're saying?? Singapore buying an aircraft carrier?? Dude, its not only about the cost. Singapore for sure has enough cash to buy an a/c carrier, but ask yourself why it doesnt have one as of yet. Simple, WE DO NOT NEED ONE!
An a/c carrier is kind of a power projection symbol, or whatever you call it. The US has quite a few cos it needs to extend its power reach over the entire world. Singapore does not need it cos there simply is no use for it. And trust me, if we EVER do buy one, Msia isnt just going to sit back and watch us sail it over their waters. This might spark off an arms race, and I assure you relations btw the 2 will be strained to breaking pt.
I feel that your way of thinking is quite naive, in that all it takes for a country to have an a/c carrier is just for it to have cash. Its not like this. 1st and foremost, the country would need to have the manpower. If I'm not wrong, an a/c carrier needs to have 5000 men to run it, and our navy only has about 5000 regulars or somwhere around there. If we pool almost all our resources into one ship, wat abt the rest of the navy? Just sit there collect dust??? Also, the logistics needed to run this huge ship, and also to open up an entirely new naval fighter wing will be tremendous. Would we do it just for the sake of having a carrier? I dont think so.
The RSN alr has a few ships which are able to carry helis like the Super Puma and soon to come, the S-70 Seahawk. I think that this is alr good enough for a country like us for now.
That's why I said I guess. Some think insufficient cash is 1 reason of not owning a carrier, so I mentioned cash is not a problem.
If singapore is to own one carrier, needless to say, of coz cannot stick to the current number of regulars. You are like saying that singapore cannot increase the population to 6 million because it only import n tonnes of food per day which is just enough for 4 million. -
I wont be surpised if ST build a small carrier for 8 aircraft in e furture,since our frigate can be manned by so few pesonnel due 2 automation. And for sensivitity we can alway classed it as a amphibious assault ship for helis
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enough of singapore and aircraft carrier discussion.. those two terms should not even be used in the same sentence...
Below is the list of countries operating a/c carriers... notice how few there are? and how many countries with larger GDPs and defence priorities, Iseral, South Korea, Taiwan etc etc... are not on the list!
even australia is not operating a/c carriers....
we recently tranistioned from a brown water navy to a force that operate 6x FFGs! and that is a huge milestone already....
and you don't need an a/c carrier to fight pirates, a few PVs with a 76mm gun is more then sufficient......
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_carriers_in_service
Country 
In Service Under construction Total United States 11 2 13 United Kingdom 3 2 5 Italy 2 0 2 India 1 2 3 Spain 1 1 2 Brazil 1 0 1 France 1 0 1 Russia 1 0 1 Thailand 1 0 1 -
wah, aircraft carrier! that is new to me.
first of all, I don't think singapore need 100 F-35, if using spencer's way of comparison, I can also say that there is no other country of similar size has 170 advanced fighter jets.
But if singapore is really going to have them, then indeed our eyesight should cover not just the small island itself, but also the malacca strait.
We are not afraid of pirate when our relationship with the neighouring country is good. But what if another mahathir step up? What if their navy close one eye or even disguise into pirate to avoid international condemn at the same time harass our transportation of daily necessities including food and oil in the aim of forcing us to compromise in various terms and conditions.
I like the idea from spartan_6 to build or buy a sub carrier, which is now already owned by countries like south korea and japan.
This sub carrier during war time can quickly be upgraded to become a full fledge carrier.
Due to sensitivity, it may carry helicopter first. When they gradually accept it, then we station F-35 on it.
The nice and soft spoken Abdullah going to step down in 2010, we need to act soon. -
Actually, realistically.... if any country tries to harass shipping in the straits of malacca... they can expect strong response from powers such as the US, Japan etc... and maybe even the PRC!
These countries have as much at stake as Singapore in keeping our SLOCs open.
even if there are these non-conventional threats.... it will probbaly be mining or speed-boats... kind of like the Iranian Revolutionary Guards....
I wonder how a a/c carrier could deal with mines and speed boats...
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I like the idea of a heli-carrier. Can station our AH-64D onboard to provide the firepower.
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Originally posted by Bionic Animals:
I like the idea of a heli-carrier. Can station our AH-64D onboard to provide the firepower.
The Apache IS NOT meant for naval warfare!!! It is a frigging tank and infantry killer, not a ship destroyer. -
Originally posted by spencer99:
Actually, realistically.... if any country tries to harass shipping in the straits of malacca... they can expect strong response from powers such as the US, Japan etc... and maybe even the PRC!
These countries have as much at stake as Singapore in keeping our SLOCs open.even if there are these non-conventional threats.... it will probbaly be mining or speed-boats... kind of like the Iranian Revolutionary Guards....
I wonder how a a/c carrier could deal with mines and speed boats...
Last time I was also like you, thinking that carrier shouldn't be used to fight pirates.
That is true for country like malaysia and indonesia bcoz malacca strait is just in front of them. They can send their speedboat with half fuel tank to petrol, if needed, they can call for an helicopter to help anytime, since their helicopter port is so near.But for Singapore, that is not possible coz the distance is too far. So we have to use carrier that can station there for a long time.
If navy of other countries disguise as pirate, US, China all these can't whack them coz no evidence that they are from a government. Worst coz their weapon even more powerful. They may carry not just machine gun but hand-carry anti-air missile like those used by hezbollah. Of coz the carrier will carry not just F-35 but also helicopter coz it is good in rescuing task.
Other than fighting pirates and ensure safe import of oil and food, the aircraft carrier also provide a training platform for the pilots. Who knows in the future once our technology mature, can even sell carriers worldwide. Water is rising very fast now, the demand of a floating platform will increase.Regarding your last question on how a/c deal with mining and speedboat, ok, they can also use destroyer and helicopter to do that.
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May I ask how old u are, Display Name?? I just somehow feel that you are not really thinking straight.
U said this: "Who knows in the future once our technology mature, can even sell carriers worldwide. Water is rising very fast now, the demand of a floating platform will increase."
I dunno wth u mean by this. U are thinking too narrow-mindedly. This will never happen.
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Originally posted by bloodsucker:
May I ask how old u are, Display Name?? I just somehow feel that you are not really thinking straight.
U said this: "Who knows in the future once our technology mature, can even sell carriers worldwide. Water is rising very fast now, the demand of a floating platform will increase."
I dunno wth u mean by this. U are thinking too narrow-mindedly. This will never happen.
Is not I don't think straight, but I think out of the box.
What I am saying is, by manufacturing our own aircraft carrier or a scale down version of helicopter carrier, our technology will improve accordingly.
One of the reason why the global economy improve so fast after world war 2 is due to the technology improvement during world war. All countries are forced to think of ways to speed up the manufacturing process at low cost, new way of management, thinking and technology breakthrough in order to survive the war.
If I am to decide on behalf of government, I won't even buy 100 F-35, but since they want to buy, might consider aircraft carrier to fully utilize them. The defense on the island is powerful more than enough, we should deploy these F35 at our weak point Malacca strait, the world will understand our concern. If we deploy it at the main island, people will think otherwise.
So what is the relationship between carrier and rise of water level?
Coz the water level is rising fast, there is a saying that many place will be submerged under sea. By then, a lot of economy activities will be done on water, having a floating platform with airport is beneficial, it speed up transportation, make huge equipment mobile, provide security, allow long term establishment.
If at that time our carrier is good, of coz can sell to the world.
I just provide some idea, I didn't do a complete study though, prove me wrong if you can. -
Originally posted by bloodsucker:
The Apache IS NOT meant for naval warfare!!! It is a frigging tank and infantry killer, not a ship destroyer.British have been conducting sea-trial for Apache. In future possible a true navy role maybe incorporated, but till then - it is still useful in providing close air support in beach storming !
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SG Manufacturer a carrier ? Its not only thinking out of the box, its out of the universe !!!
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Originally posted by Display Name:
Is not I don't think straight, but I think out of the box.
What I am saying is, by manufacturing our own aircraft carrier or a scale down version of helicopter carrier, our technology will improve accordingly.
One of the reason why the global economy improve so fast after world war 2 is due to the technology improvement during world war. All countries are forced to think of ways to speed up the manufacturing process at low cost, new way of management, thinking and technology breakthrough in order to survive the war.
If I am to decide on behalf of government, I won't even buy 100 F-35, but since they want to buy, might consider aircraft carrier to fully utilize them. The defense on the island is powerful more than enough, we should deploy these F35 at our weak point Malacca strait, the world will understand our concern. If we deploy it at the main island, people will think otherwise.
So what is the relationship between carrier and rise of water level?
Coz the water level is rising fast, there is a saying that many place will be submerged under sea. By then, a lot of economy activities will be done on water, having a floating platform with airport is beneficial, it speed up transportation, make huge equipment mobile, provide security, allow long term establishment.
If at that time our carrier is good, of coz can sell to the world.
I just provide some idea, I didn't do a complete study though, prove me wrong if you can.ARE U FROM RI OR HCI??? Cos u sound like some of the smart alecks there who think they know everything, but in fact know nothing. U are looking at things too superficially. U are talking about Singapore as if its a world superpower, like the USA.
And the whole thing about the water level thing is worse than ridiculous. Get a grip! Pls go have a more in depth understanding about Singapore's economy and military before posting out of the world ideas.
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Originally posted by Display Name:
Other than fighting pirates and ensure safe import of oil and food, the aircraft carrier also provide a training platform for the pilots. Who knows in the future once our technology mature, can even sell carriers worldwide. Water is rising very fast now, the demand of a floating platform will increase.Regarding your last question on how a/c deal with mining and speedboat, ok, they can also use destroyer and helicopter to do that.
FYI, our defence technology is not mature enough to even build our own Main Battle Tank yet. True, we are now license building frigates. But license building and drawing up (and building) a combat ship from the paper is a totally different set of skills and expertise.
And whatever ur idea of floating platform is too vague. What, a training ship? or literally a platform that floats? Anyway, RSN is too small to have dedicated training ships.
Wonder if u realised, that no a/c operates on its own. There is a fleet of MCM ships, subs, frigates and etc protecting it. Our dear Malacaa Straits have problems for an a/c to enter, not to mention the whole fleet of ships. Yes, pls do not joke with me by telling me this fleet of ships will enter the Straits one by one.
Also, if u had no idea about combat ships. Sea mines are not disabled just by destroyers and helicopters. -
Prove you wrong? Why waste our time proving an imbecile wrong? Do you have any idea how many men are needed to operate a carrier? Let's not forget the entire carrier group. You can effectively canabalise half the army and the entire naval fleet just to get enough men. Smart can already, don't act smart!! LOL!!
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how about building something like a Japanese Hyūga-class helicopter destroyers
with reinforced flight deck to launch AH-64D or the new F-35?
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Originally posted by FG42:
how about building something like a Japanese Hyūga-class helicopter destroyers
with reinforced flight deck to launch AH-64D or the new F-35?
Quite nice pic. I cant imagine what Msia would have to say IF we get this. Couple this with the pedra branca and the water issue and wateva not, they might go bonkers. lol
Ya I think that this is a more feasible option. RSN alr has the Endurance class of amphibious transport docks, which helis can land on, so this would be more realistic, though I doubt that we would really get this. I checked on wikipedia that this is only 8500 tonnes loaded weight, while the Japanese ship weighs in at 18000 tonnes loaded. I cant imagine how many times bigger in dimensions this is.
And in any case, I see no reason for us to have such a ship. For maritime patrol purposes, the current RSS Endurance is good enough. We dont really need F-35s flying over and watching the pirates do we?? Having Fokker-50s on the ship would be better, but I havent heard of any F-50s doing carrier-based missions yet. I dont even know whether it can be launched and landed on the carrier.
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Originally posted by gd4u:
FYI, our defence technology is not mature enough to even build our own Main Battle Tank yet. True, we are now license building frigates. But license building and drawing up (and building) a combat ship from the paper is a totally different set of skills and expertise.
And whatever ur idea of floating platform is too vague. What, a training ship? or literally a platform that floats? Anyway, RSN is too small to have dedicated training ships.
Wonder if u realised, that no a/c operates on its own. There is a fleet of MCM ships, subs, frigates and etc protecting it. Our dear Malacaa Straits have problems for an a/c to enter, not to mention the whole fleet of ships. Yes, pls do not joke with me by telling me this fleet of ships will enter the Straits one by one.
Also, if u had no idea about combat ships. Sea mines are not disabled just by destroyers and helicopters.technology not mature enough, do research then. if not, buy a ready made one for a start.
Now then you know a carrier operates with other ships like destroyer and frigates?
fyi, I didn't say mines are disabled just by destroyers and helicopters. -
Originally posted by sgf:
Prove you wrong? Why waste our time proving an imbecile wrong? Do you have any idea how many men are needed to operate a carrier? Let's not forget the entire carrier group. You can effectively canabalise half the army and the entire naval fleet just to get enough men. Smart can already, don't act smart!! LOL!!
If dont want to waste your time then don't copy and repeat our word.
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aircraft carriers seem to be uneccesary. our situation doesnt warrant one really. i guess the most we can go would be to base f-35 type aircrafts on the endurances as breif attachements, (to demonstrate that we have the capability ?)
but however not for long-term power projection purposes.
it sort of reminds me of the australian amphib ship thingy...superbugs on a crate.....
2 engines (A) are better than 1(B) of course lar.
if in A, you lose an engne, you still can fly back to fight another day....
in B, you lose an engine... bye bye... quite a waste of pilots eh?
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the question would be how far does sg need to project its foreign policy by means of force projection to secure its sealane. South China Sea and Andaman sea or beyond?
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Originally posted by arball:
aircraft carriers seem to be uneccesary. our situation doesnt warrant one really. i guess the most we can go would be to base f-35 type aircrafts on the endurances as breif attachements, (to demonstrate that we have the capability ?)
but however not for long-term power projection purposes.
it sort of reminds me of the australian amphib ship thingy...superbugs on a crate.....
2 engines (A) are better than 1(B) of course lar.
if in A, you lose an engne, you still can fly back to fight another day....
in B, you lose an engine... bye bye... quite a waste of pilots eh?
We won't lose a pilot just cos a single engine plane flames out. Pilots flying the F-16s readily train flying flame out approaches on simulation. If necessary, they can glide the aircraft nearer to base before ejecting too.
Any other failures that would result in a catastrophic failure in a single engine aircraft will also cause a catastrophic failure in a twin engine aircraft.
A Singapore aircraft carrier is an unlikely event in the next 10 years. But don't rule it out. Years ago, just as Singapore was acquiring the F-16As, everyone figured that the F-15s were an impossibility, that they were too "offensive".
There are 101 ways to say its unlikely, but when we really need it, we'll get it.
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Hellfire can still sink ship, it might be short-ranged but chopper can fly very low 2 avoid e ship's radar
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i rather rsaf settle for F-22s if u've seen them doing flight demos with ur own eyes...
i have~ :P
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You guys know the RSN has a serious manpower shortage.
But do you guys know how severe it is?
And please tell me why there's a requirement for such a strike craft. Don't tell me that a small-aircraft carrier/helo-carrier or whatever is needed to strike to defend or any bull-shit like these.
If I have limited manpower I would still try for something beyond my punch?
