Does Formidable Class need CIWS?
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Originally posted by 16/f/lonely:
No.....for AA. Anti-surface as a secondary function.Eh? Even Rafael's own brochure touts the Typhoon RWS as being mainly a "Anti-Terror Force Protection weapon" or "Protection against Asymmetric Threats in a Littoral environment". Which reads to me as mainly surface threats.
I don't doubt that Typhoon is accurate enough to handle AA functions but where did you get this bit about AA being a prime function and ASu being only secondary?
Apparently the barrel droops whenever the mechanisms inside move and that's gotta affect accuracy to a certain extent. This will certainly be more serious if the target is far away.
Are you referring to the Compact or the Super Rapid ... or are we talking about something else altogether?
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Originally posted by kotay:
Eh? Even Rafael's own brochure touts the Typhoon RWS as being mainly a "Anti-Terror Force Protection weapon" or "Protection against Asymmetric Threats in a Littoral environment". Which reads to me as mainly surface threats.
I don't doubt that Typhoon is accurate enough to handle AA functions but where did you get this bit about AA being a prime function and ASu being only secondary?
Are you referring to the Compact or the Super Rapid ... or are we talking about something else altogether?
First hint is that the Y gun is now the Typhoon and not the Mistral. Typically the Y gun is a AA weapon.Secondly this was what I gathered first hand. But now that you reminded me, the Typhoon is indeed used as a anti-small craft weapon. So I'll check it out again.
The 76mm I was referring to is the SRGM (Super-rapid gun mount). The barrel drooping effect was just discovered only. Intention is to check with the Oto-melara experts (expats
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I sure hope the RSN captains read about what happened during the Falklands. The RN paid dearly for peacetime budget reductions.
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Originally posted by 16/f/lonely:
First hint is that the Y gun is now the Typhoon and not the Mistral. Typically the Y gun is a AA weapon.Secondly this was what I gathered first hand. But now that you reminded me, the Typhoon is indeed used as a anti-small craft weapon. So I'll check it out again.
Are we still talking about the Formidable or have we changed topic to a different vessel class?
The 76mm I was referring to is the SRGM (Super-rapid gun mount). The barrel drooping effect was just discovered only. Intention is to check with the Oto-melara experts (expats
).The 76 compact had problems with accuracy at full ROF. The problem is suppossed to be solved with the 76 Super Rapid. Quoted accuracy is 0.3 mils at full ROF ... pretty darn good
So ... I'm trying to guess what you're trying to hint at ...
i) A fault with a single gun mount in the RSN or
ii) A fault in the implementation of the all the gun mounts in a class of vessel in the RSN or
iii) A fault with all SR gun mounts regardless of platform/class/navy.
Biiiiiiig difference between (i), (ii) and (iii)
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Originally posted by kotay:
Are we still talking about the Formidable or have we changed topic to a different vessel class?
The 76 compact had problems with accuracy at full ROF. The problem is suppossed to be solved with the 76 Super Rapid. Quoted accuracy is 0.3 mils at full ROF ... pretty darn good
So ... I'm trying to guess what you're trying to hint at ...
i) A fault with a single gun mount in the RSN or
ii) A fault in the implementation of the all the gun mounts in a class of vessel in the RSN or
iii) A fault with all SR gun mounts regardless of platform/class/navy.
Biiiiiiig difference between (i), (ii) and (iii)
Inherent problem of this gun, not sure for the other guns. The weight of the loader drum with the rounds plus all the mechanisms moving will cause that, particularly when you cycle the rocking arms to transfer the rounds from the gun shank to gun mount.
The 76mm for all the RSN ships are of the same kind. The only difference the formidable-class has is that the CoT of the gun is updated and has a computer. Kinda like a "smarter" gun now.
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Originally posted by 16/f/lonely:
Inherent problem of this gun, not sure for the other guns. The weight of the loader drum with the rounds plus all the mechanisms moving will cause that, particularly when you cycle the rocking arms to transfer the rounds from the gun shank to gun mount.
The 76mm for all the RSN ships are of the same kind. The only difference the formidable-class has is that the CoT of the gun is updated and has a computer. Kinda like a "smarter" gun now.
Hmmm ... so it's an inherent design flaw?
This despite the Super Rapid 76 being a widely used medium calibre naval gun? In production since about 1990 with goodness knows how many quantities in actual operational use ... despite it being selected for recent "next generation" vessels such as the Horizon CNGF, FREMM frigates, Skjold FAC, various Meko variants, etc ... surely someone will have blown the whistle by now.
The problem you described sounds like design flaws in the old 76 Compact mount. Either that or I am wrong :shrug:
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Originally posted by CM06:
Before this goes further:
the ship can turn.
Good one
I should have added it takes time to turn the ship. -
Quote " The OTO Melara 76/62 Super Rapid is a lightweight, rapid-fire, dual-purpose gun capable of engaging airborne and surface targets." It is therefore more of an all purpose weapon, but is is not designed specifically to engage ShShMs, although it has capability to do so if required. In this sense, it is not a true CIWS per se unlike Phalanx, Zenith, Meroka , Millenius which were from the outset designed with the primary purpose of being true last ditch weapons.
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E naval version of e skyshield 35 system in place of e aft mistral launcher will be nice
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Originally posted by OldBird69:
Woo! Turn in, Fights On!
J/k lar.
It doesn't take very long for any warship to turn la... Chill out man. More than enough reaction time.
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Originally posted by Sepecat:
Quote ” The OTO Melara 76/62 Super Rapid is a lightweight, rapid-fire, dual-purpose gun capable of engaging airborne and surface targets.”
It is therefore more of an all purpose weapon, but is is not designed specifically to engage ShShMs, although it has capability to do so if required. In this sense, it is not a true CIWS per se unlike Phalanx, Zenith, Meroka , Millenius which were from the outset designed with the primary purpose of being true last ditch weapons.
Quote ... "The Oto Melara 76mm naval gun has been primarily designed for anti-missile and anti-aircraft roles, with anti-surface warfare (anti-ship) and naval gun support capability a secondary role."
And so what does my contradictory quote prove? Nothing at all ... it's just Semantics really. At the end of the day does it matter whether it's a primary or secondary function? The heart of the matter here is whether the 76 SR can perform the role of final defense against AShM. If it can do so competently and effectively, who cares if it is primary, secondary, dual-purpose or multi-role?As has been said earlier, the so called dedicated CIWS platforms like Phalanx, et al. are being superceded by CIGS or SR Anti-Missile Missiles like SEA-RAM. For a great example, look no further than the evolution of the Arleigh Burke Class DDGs. The class started out mounting the Phalanx as the final protective layer. The most recent evolution, the Flight IIAs no longer carry the phalanx CIWS, it's been replaced by SEA-RAM. That's almost 20 ships in the last 8 years.
Take a look around all the new builds coming out of the shipyards ... they mostly do not carry small calibre CIWS anymore ... Phalanx, et al. may be true CIWS "designed with the primary purpose of being true last ditch weapons" but that doesn't prevent them from becoming obsolete or being replaced by multi-role systems that can do the same and more.
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Originally posted by Sepecat:
Quote ” The OTO Melara 76/62 Super Rapid is a lightweight, rapid-fire, dual-purpose gun capable of engaging airborne and surface targets.”
It is therefore more of an all purpose weapon, but is is not designed specifically to engage ShShMs, although it has capability to do so if required. In this sense, it is not a true CIWS per se unlike Phalanx, Zenith, Meroka , Millenius which were from the outset designed with the primary purpose of being true last ditch weapons.
It is more of a AA gun.In fact when you look at the figures, it engages air targets better than surface targets, with a greater effective range and hit-rate.
When you look at the category, it is usually classified as a AA gun.
FYI, MOM rounds which are the AA rounds, can be converted to SAPOM rounds, but not vice-versa. This makes the gun more flexible as you would not want to load rounds according to the needs. Each round weighs 12-13kg!
Regarding the barrel-drooping fault, did a run today. Interestingly, when the gun is handed-over to FCS, that does not happen. Seems to be balancer problem.
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Originally posted by Shotgun:
Woo! Turn in, Fights On!
J/k lar.
It doesn't take very long for any warship to turn la... Chill out man. More than enough reaction time.
Thought I already mentioned about bow thrusters......? -
In its element: Rough seas pounding the Intrepid in the Mediterranean Sea.
http://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/publications/cyberpioneer/features/2008/may08_cs.html
Missile launchers---rare seen photo
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Originally posted by lionnoisy:
In its element: Rough seas pounding the Intrepid in the Mediterranean Sea.
http://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/publications/cyberpioneer/features/2008/may08_cs.html
Missile launchers---rare seen photo
Har?Like that = rough?
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Sea State 4 at best... I'll puke with anything more than Sea state 5 though...
16flonely, i meant that the frigate can turn in time. I'm sure while the frigate is turning, the Aster already on the way.
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Only 16 and lonely, when you are on the bridge, watch for the 76 SR to take out the ShShMs coming at your ship & I wish you best of luck. No semantics required , only plain facts ; 76 mm SR is not a CIWS, cut & dried.
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Originally posted by Sepecat:
Only 16 and lonely, when you are on the bridge, watch for the 76 SR to take out the ShShMs coming at your ship & I wish you best of luck. No semantics required , only plain facts ; 76 mm SR is not a CIWS, cut & dried.
Don't quite get you....but if I get your drift, you still don't believe the 76mm can do the job?The 76mm round is a up-sized bullet, the SRGM is not a artillery piece, this fact, you have to get it right first. Thus it is rather accurate against air-targets as it does not use ballistic trajectory against air-targets. Having flak-type rounds make it more deadly.
Regarding rate of turn, the frigate can turn around completely in less than a minute, without bow-thrusters. And since a launch of a missile is usually detected fairly quickly, I don't see how it is disadvantaged by using a 76mm even with a blind-arc zone.
Thus said, I understand all your concerns, I used to think this way too.
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Hmmm, the newer GPS / INS AShMs are quite a challenge. If you don't detect it's sea-skimming flight profile, the only time u get to detect it is during its terminal pop up, where it turns on its own seeker. Thats when the 76 will come in VERY handy.
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Originally posted by Shotgun:
Hmmm, the newer GPS / INS AShMs are quite a challenge. If you don't detect it's sea-skimming flight profile, the only time u get to detect it is during its terminal pop up, where it turns on its own seeker. Thats when the 76 will come in VERY handy.
The enemy firing at us will have to "light us up" first. That's how detection of a launch can be done earlier.
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Well, thats where the frigate's radar-evading features come in helpful. Besides, those missiles I mentioned were Carrier-Killers, not used on small lil things like frigates.
Against SURTAS, long range maritime patrol craft will scan the seas with their radar. They find a group, they call in the rain. The missiles will fly to predetermined coordinates near the task force, initiate a pop up to look for its targets (any target) and kill them.
So imagine, those missiles coming in from multiple axes... fricking high-explosive air-show man.
Frigates, not worth the efforts for those missiles. =D
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Originally posted by 16/f/lonely:
The enemy firing at us will have to "light us up" first. That's how detection of a launch can be done earlier.
Not quite sure I understand you correctly. Modern AShMs can typically be shot on a bearing and need only go active in the final phase. There is no giveaway "light up" that you would get from launch of a semi-active homer.
The best you can hope for is to detect the surface seach radar that "painted" you ... that will give a bearing to your likely threats and allow you to react accordingly ... but you won't know a missile is inbound until it shows up.
(p/s: Let's not go into LPI radars ... )
Given the above, the worst case scenario for the Formidable is that the incoming sea-skimmer is detected about 28km away, as it comes over the horizon. If it's a Harpoon SSM analogue, that should give about 2 mins to avert the brown faecal matter hitting the fan.
The thing about the above is that it is a one-on-one scenario, which is not neccessarily how things operate in Real Life ® . There will most probably be a supporting AEWC that will hopefully provide OTH detection of incoming bogies, giving the fleet more time to respond accordingly.
The other is that if they can see us on their surface search, so can we. More importantly, if we have OTH look-see capability, than it is more likely that we can see-shoot-kill them while they are still trying to pin us down.
That's why people say it's always about the systems not the platforms.
I'm sure you know that already ... ;)
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Originally posted by kotay:
Not quite sure I understand you correctly. Modern AShMs can typically be shot on a bearing and need only go active in the final phase. There is no giveaway "light up" that you would get from launch of a semi-active homer.
The best you can hope for is to detect the surface seach radar that "painted" you ... that will give a bearing to your likely threats and allow you to react accordingly ... but you won't know a missile is inbound until it shows up.
(p/s: Let's not go into LPI radars ... )
Given the above, the worst case scenario for the Formidable is that the incoming sea-skimmer is detected about 28km away, as it comes over the horizon. If it's a Harpoon SSM analogue, that should give about 2 mins to avert the brown faecal matter hitting the fan.
The thing about the above is that it is a one-on-one scenario, which is not neccessarily how things operate in Real Life ® . There will most probably be a supporting AEWC that will hopefully provide OTH detection of incoming bogies, giving the fleet more time to respond accordingly.
The other is that if they can see us on their surface search, so can we. More importantly, if we have OTH look-see capability, than it is more likely that we can see-shoot-kill them while they are still trying to pin us down.
That's why people say it's always about the systems not the platforms.
I'm sure you know that already ... ;)
:)So we come to a understanding that anything can happen.
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Originally posted by 16/f/lonely:
The enemy firing at us will have to "light us up" first. That's how detection of a launch can be done earlier.
Not necessarily to be the case, anti-radiation missiles like KH-31P or AGM-88 can actually ride on your own beams instead of hoping “lit-up” by other side.Furthermore, AshCMs are usually active radar guided which means the AshCM will only light up you at the terminal stage when its own seeker comes into play. The “lighting up” time is rather short for any comfortable reaction.
As for the Super Rapid 76mm gun, with its 0.3mils accuracy and 120rounds per min MAXIMUM, it’s Damn good, but just not good enough to totally/primarily replace a traditional CIWS’s role. Think about it, an even sub-sonic AshCM can have a typical terminal speed of Mach0.8-0.9, An OTO SR 76mm is 0.5 second per shot, during which of slice time, the anti-ship missile can travel 100-160m, on the other hand, the ASHCM is NOT following a ballistic trajectory, so you won't know the next 0.5 second, the missile would go straight or slightly turn/dive or pop up or accelerate. And making the things worse, bigger caliber guns are always advertised to be more capable to intercept AshCM at a longer distance. But longer distance makes the salvo taking more seconds to cover, which to an agile AshCM, the pre-emptively assumed intercepting point could well be changed during even several seconds. That’s the reason, only a guided AA missile with “lock on” ability plays the CIWS role much handier than the bigger gun, that’s the reason a Phalanx can only correctly/principally/primarily being replaced by SEA-RAM with IR/UV seeker, not a 76mm gun shooting munitions with no eye and poor brain
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Originally posted by 38�Ž:
Not necessarily to be the case, anti-radiation missiles like KH-31P or AGM-88 can actually ride on your own beams instead of hoping “lit-up” by other side.Furthermore, AshCMs are usually active radar guided which means the AshCM will only light up you at the terminal stage when its own seeker comes into play. The “lighting up” time is rather short for any comfortable reaction.
As for the Super Rapid 76mm gun, with its 0.3mils accuracy and 120rounds per second MAXIMUM, it’s Damn good, but just not good enough to totally/primarily replace a traditional CIWS’s role. Think about it, an even sub-sonic AshCM can have a typical terminal speed of Mach0.8-0.9, An OTO SR 76mm is 0.5 second per shot, during which of slice time, the anti-ship missile can travel 100-160m, on the other hand, the ASHCM is NOT following a ballistic trajectory, so you won't know the next 0.5 second, the missile would go straight or slightly turn/dive or pop up or accelerate. And making the things worse, bigger caliber guns are always advertised to be more capable to intercept AshCM at a longer distance. But longer distance makes the salvo taking more seconds to cover, which to an agile AshCM, the pre-emptively assumed intercepting point could well be changed during even several seconds. That’s the reason, only a guided AA missile with “lock on” ability plays the CIWS role much handier than the bigger gun, that’s the reason a Phalanx can only correctly/principally/primarily being replaced by SEA-RAM with IR/UV seeker, not a 76mm gun shooting munitions with no eye and poor brain
I never really said that the CIWS does not fill a niche role in that.But it is wrong to say that the 76mm has no eye and poor brain. It is also wrong to say that the 76mm is simply incapable of doing its primary AA role. And where the 76mm lacks in rpm, it more than makes up in the type of munition used. And for a gun that trains at 60 degree per second, why can't it engage more than 1 missile at any one time?
Thus said, I still find the CIWS rather cool and like you guys, also wish to see it on our ships. But not because the 76mm is inadequete, although it won't be wrong to say that it is not quite adequete. It still needs support from decoys and AMMs for the whole picture to work. A good control of the ship and its systems can also tip the scales.