Originally posted by Fallen_Heaven:should have gone for the F35A. but doubt that we can buy. highly sensitive ...
US agree to sell to many countries like Israel, Japan, Europe already. But singapore can't get it, because they don't treat singapore as close ally.
Like that might as well buy JAS39 Gripen, even more powerful than F15.
Originally posted by Display Name:US agree to sell to many countries like Israel, Japan, Europe already. But singapore can't get it, because they don't treat singapore as close ally.
Like that might as well buy JAS39 Gripen, even more powerful than F15.
who says Singapore cant get it?
what u mean by gripen even more powerful than F15?
Originally posted by Display Name:US agree to sell to many countries like Israel, Japan, Europe already. But singapore can't get it, because they don't treat singapore as close ally.
Like that might as well buy JAS39 Gripen, even more powerful than F15.
Not true. Singapore is same situation as Israel. Both are security participants in the F-35 project. So they'd both be able to buy F-35. And get ur facts right, the Gripen is not more powerful than F-15. It all depends on what aspects u are comparing. U compare thrust power? Firepower? Manoevrability? Payload? The F-15 SG is good, otherwise u think RSAF will take Gripen off its selection so early? Gripen is good in its own rights, but then it doesnt fit Singapore requirements.
Originally posted by Display Name:US agree to sell to many countries like Israel, Japan, Europe already. But singapore can't get it, because they don't treat singapore as close ally.
Like that might as well buy JAS39 Gripen, even more powerful than F15.
Don't be a dick. Firstly F-35 is not even on sale yet. Secondly as a security coop participant, S'pore can opt to buy it if they wish. Thirdly JAS39 is NOT more powerful than F15. Whoever says it is must either be ignorant or on weed. I'm guessing you fall in BOTH categories.
Originally posted by sgf:Don't be a dick. Firstly F-35 is not even on sale yet. Secondly as a security coop participant, S'pore can opt to buy it if they wish. Thirdly JAS39 is NOT more powerful than F15. Whoever says it is must either be ignorant or on weed. I'm guessing you fall in BOTH categories.
Eh bro u quite the rude ah? haha cmon give him a break... No need to call people dicks lah. Chill man its just that some people are not that well-informed thats all.
Do your research before you speak.
The JAS-39 Gripen claims they're the first 4th-generation fighter to be operational...but look at the facts...they're 4th-gen because of the year it was built, not in terms of technology.
Just take a look why nobody who can afford a F-16 will opt for a JAS-39? JAS-39 only picked up by third world countries who can't afford F-16.
AND the F-15 is better than the F-16, so basic human intelligence will you, both F-15 and F-16 beats the JAS-39.
And i'm not bullshitting, just look at how much payload the JAS-39 can take vs the F-15 and F-16, what kinda radar it can take, and what is the effective combat range? And weapon compatibility...u'll realise the Gripen is like a poor man's F-16 or a bigger F-5.
Once again, you look at what RSAF has been doing these days. They are getting F-16/52+, with CFT for long-range strike, and they bought F-15SG for EVEN LONGER range strike + even better beyond-visual-range air-to-air.
Gripen? Oh please....
To add on a little, I'm not saying Gripen is crap. It was designed by Sweden for Swedish's defence needs, and its capable for that.
but for the rest of the world, with F-15 and F-16 to choose....Gripen is nowhere near.
Please see Gripen NG
Not to be spoilt sport. NG BG RG PG i dont think we really care. Most important is XXX-I. I for icecream.
I agree that F15 payload is higher than JAS 39, but given the facts that singapore's air space is so small, there really isn't a need for RSAF jets to carry so much weapons and fly so far away. So spending money for the far distance is quite a waste.
Furthermore, though F15 radar detection range is a bit longer than JAS 39, but F15 RCS is much bigger than JAS 39, which means it is very likely that a JAS 39 detect another F15 before the F15 detect it.
Originally posted by Display Name:I agree that F15 payload is higher than JAS 39, but given the facts that singapore's air space is so small, there really isn't a need for RSAF jets to carry so much weapons and fly so far away. So spending money for the far distance is quite a waste.
Furthermore, though F15 radar detection range is a bit longer than JAS 39, but F15 RCS is much bigger than JAS 39, which means it is very likely that a JAS 39 detect another F15 before the F15 detect it.
dont be crazy lah... what if the target is far away?
JAS 39 no matter how smaller RCS also cannot slip under our G-550 phalcon nose...
Originally posted by tripwire:dont be crazy lah... what if the target is far away?
JAS 39 no matter how smaller RCS also cannot slip under our G-550 phalcon nose...
When the target with small RCS is still far away, it is even more difficult to detect unless the RCS is big.
I understand that it is impossible for JAS 39 to remain invisible on F15 radar all the time.
But they only need to detect the F15 a few seconds ahead of F15, that's long enough for Gripen to launch missile. Yes the eagle fully loaded with so many weapons, bigger oil tank, but the Gripen act first. This is 4th generation air combat, dude.
Remember stealth capability is what F22 rely most in order to be called as "5th generation figher".
Their RCS is so small till in an air combat simulation, F22 even slip under F16's nose and shoot it down using "machine gun".
do you knw that till nw F-22 does not have Link 16 inside?
When the target with small RCS is still far away, it is even more difficult to detect unless the RCS is big.
I understand that it is impossible for JAS 39 to remain invisible on F15 radar all the time.
But they only need to detect the F15 a few seconds ahead of F15, that's long enough for Gripen to launch missile. Yes the eagle fully loaded with so many weapons, bigger oil tank, but the Gripen act first. This is 4th generation air combat, dude.
Looks like a simplistic way of looking at things, there's more to air combat then all that.
Firstly for that all to work, it makes the assumption that the Gripen will not be detected, and will detect the F-15 within the engagement range of its missiles. All this does not work and comes to naught if they can detect you long out of range of your missiles.
Unfortunately unless the Gripen has a really small RCS like the F-22, low-observability is less of a tactic, and more of a signature-management issue. There is a big difference between the no.4 camo uniform and the sniper gillie suit.
Worse, all this functions under the assumption that the F-15s are working alone and not under the cover of an AWACS or ground radar. Air forces do not just go to war with planes flying piecemeal against each other, tactics and how you play your cards is probably more crucial to victory.
All in all I seriously, seriously doubt any Gripen pilot's main idea to victory is to get in a shot a few seconds ahead of the an enemy pilot. Not to mention all the issues about firing at extreme range and the low PKs that come with it.
Ultimately I believe there's one thing to consider before arguing too much.
If some person claims that their "technology" can do rhings better then some other similar and more reconized piece, but yet is sold at a lower price and has not found many takers... I would take a lot of their claims with a pinch of salt.
Originally posted by duotiga83:do you knw that till nw F-22 does not have Link 16 inside?
My wifi is faster thank Link16, by 54 times!
F-22 is using technology beyond that already lar.
Another thing is security. The F-22 another more secure system called the Intra-Flight Data-Link (IFDL). As a "Stealth" fighter, it can sometimes be operating in areas the enemy do not expect it to be. Conventional datalink such as the Link16 can be detected / intercepted by enemy SIGINT. Sad to say, the F-22 / F-35 cannot share its wealth of info with other F-16 or F-15 using conventional means. But there are the ways to move information around.
Besides, I think the link-16 might not be able to support the sheer amount of data that can be generated.
Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Worse, all this functions under the assumption that the F-15s are working alone and not under the cover of an AWACS or ground radar. Air forces do not just go to war with planes flying piecemeal against each other, tactics and how you play your cards is probably more crucial to victory.
An AWACS benefit not just F15 but JAS39 and any jet in the team.
Originally posted by Display Name:An AWACS benefit not just F15 but JAS39 and any jet in the team.
and how will the JAS39 benefits the whole team?
does it carry more then F-15SG?
does it comes with AESA radar like the F-15SG?
how about range? does the JAS39 comes with conformal fuel tanks like the F-15SG?
does the swedish package comes with SNIPER XR, AIM-9X and AGM-154?
An AWACS benefit not just F15 but JAS39 and any jet in the team.
Funny you should suddenly bring up the "team".
As tripwire pointed out, how on earth is the JAS39 a better team player then the F-15SG?
None.
Also the your whole point on smaller RCS shoot missiles first for the JAS39 is already rather suspect, you've not brought up any other real arguments since when.
I find your intellectual intergity and honesty in here rather suspect... ie. using lionnoisy style arguments, just with better english.
I agree that F15 payload is higher than JAS 39, but given the facts that singapore's air space is so small, there really isn't a need for RSAF jets to carry so much weapons and fly so far away. So spending money for the far distance is quite a waste.
Are you forgetting long loiter time for patrol or the ability to hit vital targets out deep into enemy turf? All these things are options that the JAS39 does not offer the RSAF.
Unless your idea of the RSAF is the kind of airforce whoes main idea is to scramble and knife-fight over Singapore this point is so paper-thin and simplistic that I am surprised you even tried to suggest it and think it'll slip by.
guys pls read the technical details of Gripen esp gripen NG before arguing....this is getting absurd.......
Originally posted by duotiga83:guys pls read the technical details of Gripen esp gripen NG before arguing....this is getting absurd.......
if i may borrow the words of the boeing sales pitch.
"the F-15SG could take off carrying the Gripen NG on its back."
Originally posted by tripwire:if i may borrow the words of the boeing sales pitch.
"the F-15SG could take off carrying the Gripen NG on its back."
Ya, and make it two. Strap the other one under the belly :)
Originally posted by LazerLordz:The strength of the F-35 is its mid-tier LO/Stealth technology, sensor fusion and networking capability.
Well that the point
Low/steath - what the use just smaller on radar - can be detected also.
Sensor Fusion - we already have gulfstreams which does better job in longer range , and its radar data is send to our planes
network - our planes already are network ... even with gulfstream .
I do not see much benefit .
Originally posted by Display Name:I agree that F15 payload is higher than JAS 39, but given the facts that singapore's air space is so small, there really isn't a need for RSAF jets to carry so much weapons and fly so far away. So spending money for the far distance is quite a waste.
Furthermore, though F15 radar detection range is a bit longer than JAS 39, but F15 RCS is much bigger than JAS 39, which means it is very likely that a JAS 39 detect another F15 before the F15 detect it.
Your want the J AS39 to bomb singapore itself or others ? If you want to bomb ownself - yep it is good !!! :)
Far distance is a must - as the enemy may be a large country - which need the extra legs to reach some of the target. Also you will need loitering - to attack some targets. You cannot invest in a short leg fighter - and which need to be everytime supported by tankers.
JAS39 may be smaller in radar , but F15 radar is more powerful - in the end - F-15 still detect and shoot 1st then JAS39.
Furthermore, though F15 radar detection range is a bit longer than JAS 39, but F15 RCS is much bigger than JAS 39, which means it is very likely that a JAS 39 detect another F15 before the F15 detect it.
This is clutching at straws here, just because you say insist something will be this way does not mean it is. Given all the facts that we have and know, what you say is simply false.
Also you are using vauge terms, how much is "much bigger"? or how very is very "very likely"? They seem to me to be terms used to justify wishful thinking rather then facts.
Firstly how much smaller on radar is the JAS 39 RCS? Note that RCS is more of a function of plane shape design then physical size, the B2 is way bigger then the Gripen but it has a much, much smaller RCS.
Also, AFAIK, if you are talking about a stealth aircraft, the Gripen is NOT it. An example of a stealth aircraft would be the F-22, the JSF, the B2 and what have you not. Even the signature-managed Rafale is a much better example then the Gripen. Trying to say that the Gripen can spring up on its foes like the F-22 is patently not talking with much common sense, it's like saying a house cat can take on a zebra like a lion because they are both cats.
Talk aside, let's go to the facts.
How long can the Gripen hide from the extremely powerful APG-63(V)3 radar of the F-15? How long can it hide from the even more powerful radars of AWACS that are being used? The truth is all things considered, unless it is some aircraft like the F-22 or JSF all these things about smaller RCS is utterly moot. The F-15SG will see the Gripen long before it can even come in range of its missiles.
This whole thing about seeing a few seconds before and getting shots off at extreme range is pretty much rubbish unless you are flying an F-22 or JSF, and it certianly does not apply to a budget lighweight fighter designed with modest abilites.