COMMENT, Greg Sheridan | February 25, 2008
Can Super Hornets beat F15SG?
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I am not talking SG will fight with Oz.But now
Super Hornet looks equipped with super bullets.
.....Later, on Sky TV,(US Secretary of Defence Robert)
Gates said a little more bluntly that he was "not optimistic" about Congress changing the law to allow Raptor exports.
The possibility that Congress might do this on the basis of a purely hypothetical inquiry from Australia - if we propositioned you, would you say yes? - is pretty remote.
As to the Super Hornets, every person in the official Australian defence establishment knows they have many secret and classified capabilities and that, as part of an Australian system, they would be comprehensively able to defeat any other plane in the region.
The debate is hamstrung in part because the classified capabilities cannot be discussed by those who know them, and those who do discuss them don't know them.
There would be at least a $400 million penalty in breaking the contract for the Super Hornets and there would be a serious cost to Australia's reputation.
But more importantly, everyone associated with air force policy also knows the F1-11s are right at the end of their tether. Even if you believed you could keep them flying into their fifth decade, the decision to scale them down and abandon them has already been taken, and actions have followed that decision.....---http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23269471-31477,00.html
Super Hornets looking good, Raptors off the radar.
1.Can Super Hornets beat F15SG?
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depends on the pilot
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Originally posted by lionnoisy:
I am not talking SG will fight with Oz.But now
Super Hornet looks equipped with super bullets.
1.Can Super Hornets beat F15SG?
let you be the judge of that - Isreal, japan, korea, Saudi Arabia and singapore all rich countries all which only go for the best - chose f-15 ...
It have better range, payload, radar ..... in fact totally superior in all ways to the hornet...
Super hornet .... "super bullets" ? haha - they do not even have the range to fly and only 1/2 the load ... till the navy have to use f-14 have to do its job in Afghanistan ... !!!If idiot try to tell you that super hornet is installed with some special ? --- well you can bet - it can be install in another aircraft also - planes like f-15 have a lot more space and payload to work with... infact you find more weapons and system can be fixed with f-15 .... with its higher payload and space.
of course the australia defense is going to say it have special "super bullets" if not why they chose it ? the super bullets is that "it can land on aircraft carrier" ... but they forget to mention on 2 things - aust do not have aircraft carrier .... also other planes all too have other form of "super bullets" too ... which in fact is superior to F-18. -
it'll be interesting to hear it from boeing .... both are boeing products ...
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Originally posted by storywolf:
let you be the judge of that - Isreal, japan, korea, Saudi Arabia and singapore all rich countries all which only go for the best - chose f-15 ...
It have better range, payload, radar ..... in fact totally superior in all ways to the hornet...
Super hornet .... "super bullets" ? haha - they do not even have the range to fly and only 1/2 the load ... till the navy have to use f-14 have to do its job in Afghanistan ... !!!If idiot try to tell you that super hornet is installed with some special ? --- well you can bet - it can be install in another aircraft also - planes like f-15 have a lot more space and payload to work with... infact you find more weapons and system can be fixed with f-15 .... with its higher payload and space.
of course the australia defense is going to say it have special "super bullets" if not why they chose it ? the super bullets is that "it can land on aircraft carrier" ... but they forget to mention on 2 things - aust do not have aircraft carrier .... also other planes all too have other form of "super bullets" too ... which in fact is superior to F-18.Be careful you don't play into his hand... if you read his other posts you know he's really not interested in military hardware, but "baiting" people into his little anti-aussie cause in here.
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Super Hornet plus point - High AoA, n better low handling speed due to its large straight wings
Strike Eagle - Accerlation and high payload
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I would say both r evenly match in BVR, but F-15SG is more agile in dog-fight, has better range & payload. Also e Eagle still hold e record for world faster climb
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The F-15 has a better thrust to weight ratio, and in terms of avionics and weaponry they are probably equally matched. However, there is no contest if the F-15s are grounded due to some structural problem :P
(Yes I know that the grounding only affected F-15 A-Ds, but you never know :P. Structurally, the E variant is not that much different.)
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I think there is a big mis conception and inaccuracies in the debate.
Both latest F-15 variant (SG) and F-18E/F (Block 2) are fairly evenly matched if used against each other. They do present different roles with different capabilities. If a deep-penetration striker with capable self-escorting capabilities is what you want, The Strike eagles would be the nature choice. However, if you want a evenly capable strike aircraft and air supriority fighter, then the Super Bugs is your choice.
Let 's take an objective comparision of these 2 aircrafts:
Size: Both are approximately the same size, same wing span.
Thrust to weight ratio: This goes to the Eagles who have 2x 29,00lb engines. The Superbugs have only 2x22,000lb engines.
Avionics: Both are armed with AESA radar. Of course RSAF variant will be the latest - but untested. USN (and possibly RAAF) will be armed with the slightly more matured APG-79 AESA. Both have very similar functions and capabilities (air to air modes and ground attacks, SAR, electronic warfare, etc). The APG63V3 AESA on the Eagles have more TR modules though, which made them slightly more capable. However, I was reading some reports that the APG-79 have some really secret capabilities similar (albeit not as capable) to that found on the APG-77 on the Raptors.
Range: Strike Eagles. Obviously.
Air combat agility: Super Bugs, due to the great low speed handling control and the use of digital flight control system. The Eagles is still using only a similar digital/analague flight control system I believe... correct me if I am wrong.
Stealth: F-18E/F has frontal forward stealth capabilities. Eagles has none. The Eagle reflects "like mirrors" once they turn. Thus the pilots tend to fly the Eagles using "tennis courting" maneouver.
In a head on BVR shootout, they are both equally matched, with the Eagle having a slightly more powerful AESA radar, but the Super bugshave a much lower RCS. Thus I may dare say that the Super bugs actually has a slight advantage of getting the first shots. In terms of WVR, both are armed with JHMCS and AIM-9X. So its the first aircraft that shoot first wins. However, the Superbug have better dogfight agility and thus if they go into a knife fight, the Superbug should have the advantage.
Of course if terms of strike capability, the Eagles should win in always all area except perhaps one of two counts, first of which, the Super bug can actually carry more types of weapons. Mission flexibility is therefore slightly greater than the Eagles.
Were the Superbug really incompetent, don't you think it is foolish for USN to replace all their tier 1 fighters (Tomcats) soley with the Superbugs?
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well, i think perhaps one point to take note is the history....
cos f-18 was originally built as a sort of "Navy's F-16" ... a light weight multirole fighter.... while f-15 was concepted slightly earlier, as an total air superiority fighter, "not a pound for air-to-ground" ..perhaps with the main aim to brute force win the fight, but we're with the F15SG rite? so maybe its a bit diff , since diff role....
well, tt's my 0.0002 x 10^4 cents opinion....
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Perhaps lionnoisy is one of those refugees which the aussies turned away ? thus the anti aussieness? -
F-15 or Superbug better ?
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Why argue on it ? the Professional already did it - and the facts has been clear - all the rich countries that wanted the best - Japan, Korea, Isreal, Saudi and Singapore all choose f-15 - sad to say a lot of cases superbug not even in the final 3 in the final selection process !!!As of 2008, the F-15 in all air forces has an air-to-air combinekill record of 104 kills to 0 losses in air combat. So what the superbugs score ?
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This info is from a paper put forward by a think tank. It is on why F-22 is not worth the money.
Quite old but worth a read. http://www.cdi.org/program/document.cfm?DocumentID=3389&from_page
The performance data on the chart will show you why F-18 is taking over the F-14. Not to mention the fact that the F-14 is a hangar queen, going at 1 maint hour per flying hour.
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Radar= F15SG
Range= F15SG(it goes even futher with conformal fuel tanks)
Weapon-load= F15SG(no other combat jet can carry the number of weapons a F15SG/K can carry).
Mission Flexibility= F15SG(the F15K carries all the weapons the current F18 E/Fs and F15Es carry. The F15I carries Israeli weapons in addition.The F15SGs will most probably carry both American and ISraeli weapons)
Avionics= F15SG(the F15SG is presumably equipped with the latest EW warfare systems, survivability protection systems, etc). Refer to Israel`s F15I and F16I. They are far far better equipped than the models which the Americans are selling direct.
Stealth= Negligible. It is not significant. Look at the F18 E/F. It is not the equivalent of a F35/22. I see more along the lines of a sales advertising point; similar to the Rafale`s omni-role capability. Overall, both aircrafts will light up radars given thier sizes viewed from any angle. Coupled with the F15Sgs more powerful radar, this is not an issue.
Maneuverability= Hard to say. Both aircrafts have thier niches. Probably pilot dependant. It does not make a difference if the flight control is digital or a hybrid/digital one if the performance quotient is the same(think F15SG is all digital now like the F15K). More of an engineering/build issue. The F15 is an air-superiority jet upgraded to do multi-role; like the F22s. The F18s are built to do multi-role. My bet is on the F15Sg overall when it comes to maneuverability. -
One needs to look at the nature of the report posted by Lion-noisy. It is targetted at Australians. The defence secretary cannot possibly say that they are getting second best jets. That said, the f18 E/Fs are more than capable in dealing with the new Sukhois in the region. This is especially the case when the F18 E/Fs are tied to C41 systems involving the Wedgetails, UAVs, ground based radars, AAW destroyers, etc. It is a very competent system. Remember, it is about systems now.
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Originally posted by Joe Black:
Air combat agility: Super Bugs, due to the great low speed handling control and the use of digital flight control system. The Eagles is still using only a similar digital/analague flight control system I believe... correct me if I am wrong.
Stealth: F-18E/F has frontal forward stealth capabilities.
However, the Superbug have better dogfight agility and thus if they go into a knife fight, the Superbug should have the advantage.
Think you have a lot of misconception !!!
First airfight - low speed handling is not for dog fight - you lose too much energy .... !!! Eagles have the advantage with raw power - if they get into bad position, they have the more powerful engine to get out of it.
Another thing - about digital flight control ... is that really that great - please tell that to the russians for i do not see the planes like su-35 and mig-29 having much of it and processing power .... !!!Frontal Stealth ? - the radar signature is just a little smaller, not much stealth - if it really have some stealth - f-35 would not been built .. ok give to you on some stealth .. by the way with your plane so short of range - you be carrying 2 tanks and missiles .... opps that so whatever stealth.... it show up on the radar like all other planes ..... !!!
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I don't see how the F/A-18E/F's "Stealthy" features come in handy with external stores. The F-15Es or SGs however don't rely on stealth but powerful jammers that prevent radars from locking on to them.
The MudHens did lose some of their air-to-air maneuverability with all the extra-armor, so it doesn't really achieve the same performance of the F-15C. The F/A-18E/F on the other hand seems to have a drag index of a flying dump truck.
I'm not a superbug fan, but I am really very "impressed" by its handling characteristics at low airspeeds and high AOA.
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Ay, you tell me har, izzit Ferrari better or Hummer better? :lol:
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Actuaclly the F-15SG is more agile then e superbug
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Originally posted by spartan_6:
Actuaclly the F-15SG is more agile then e superbug
F15sg more agile than F/A 18 C or D....but the superhornet..were better at low speed... -
Originally posted by Shotgun:
I don't see how the F/A-18E/F's "Stealthy" features come in handy with external stores. The F-15Es or SGs however don't rely on stealth but powerful jammers that prevent radars from locking on to them.
The MudHens did lose some of their air-to-air maneuverability with all the extra-armor, so it doesn't really achieve the same performance of the F-15C. The F/A-18E/F on the other hand seems to have a drag index of a flying dump truck.
I'm not a superbug fan, but I am really very "impressed" by its handling characteristics at low airspeeds and high AOA.
Well mudhens f-15E does lose some air-to-air with extra armor + tanks .... but then with the new f-15 korea and singapore -with new engines ..... this give them back the lose grounds .... -
bigger radar = more emmisions. = easier target
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now guys, if singapore buys the f-15 over the f-18 its obvious tt the f-15 will fit us real well...it will definitely fulfil our needs better than the hornet. right? anyway, i'm so damn sure...just like Israel, Singapore will upgrade and do their own mods on the F-15SG. anyway, countries can have the money to buy a good plane...but if in the end, it's abt the human factor. look at our neighboring airforces...impressive? haha!
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Originally posted by NOVA 87:-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
bigger radar = more emmisions. = easier target
Bigger plane = bigger payload
Bigger plane = more power / Speed
Bigger plane = more weapon
Bigger plane = more space for new technology or device to be install
: )
Actually there is many thoughts on radar ....
One thoughts is stealth which is to reduce radar signature .... but fact is people mistake that stealth mean totally cannot see on radar .... it is just reducing that all to how much that depends. Frankly with the resigned air intake and the fan - question is how much reduction is that ?
Another school of thoughts is to jam or distorb it from working properly ..... which f-15 with isreal tech ... is sure to use.
One think about the f-18 super hornet why the navy love it so much - "bringback" - that mean at sea it can bring back and land back on a carrier safetly with a larger load of unspent fuel and munitions . Thus safe on a lot of money .... on unused fuels or ammunitions - that may need to dump out at sea before the plane can land safetly on the carrier. -
Originally posted by storywolf:
Well mudhens f-15E does lose some air-to-air with extra armor + tanks .... but then with the new f-15 korea and singapore -with new engines ..... this give them back the lose grounds ....
I believe the engines we acquired for the Strike Eagles are still in the 29000lb class. -
Our F15SG air frame is reported to be built by Samsung Korea factories that buit the korean F15K. But the engines are still from US. We can assume our avonics are to be added with a special touch from our good friends.