NS nowadays is like scout camp
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A tough NS may lead to excessive injuries and significant mental damage to the future workforce
Military training everywhere not so bad as to cuz mental damage de though specialised courses may be more suited for some people than the rest. Even she-men also pass through.
Some people actually enjoy it.I know very few simply could not. But it has got to do with prior mental states and conditions.
lol my friend told me he 1st day go in tekong the 3sg said, " ok gentlemen, i'll like to welcome you to Pulau Tekan, OOPS, i mean Tekong....."
LOL.. the rest u can well guess it..
Glad its over for me nearly 10 years ago. Interesting resort. Our very own Alacatraz. You know arh...some places..better avoid. Wait at night cannot sleep well. Some places got permanent residents
My buddy`s friends saw something somewhere on Tekong and fell sick for 3 days. Never believed in these things before. Of course, he changed his mind after that. Old memories..haha
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ARbo why not compare the technology now and the old days? Everything changes from time to time. Judging the current situation, i think we are doing fine arnt we?
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If its a simple matter of today's youth being more vocal, I'm fine with that. I'm just worried that they are mentally soft. In my days, recruits would complain about being asked to clean the garbage dumpster room (that'll make you retch believe you me), having to do locker PT and having to scrub urinals with toothbrushes. These days I hear people complaining about food not good (despite it being much better than our time), not enough time to use recruit's mess, instructors always SHOUTING at them,etc .
Maybe its 'cos they have really good lives outside which is why they can't take the "lousy" food and mummy never scolds them which is why they tak boleh tahan when an instructor screws them. My cousin was just whining about the "simple" food he had during BMT when he came to visit for CNY. "The food is really simple, nothing much at all". Hello? You expect SAF to serve you foie gras or abalone or what? Simple food. Its bloody BMT not an evening with KF Seetoh you know!!
And my cousin is not alone. I bump into various botaks in number 4 all the time. And those who are with mummy or daddy are always b*tching about the lamest things. Fine, whine about having to do 100 jumping jacks but whine about getting F-ed when your boots are not shiny? Its only a verbal lashing you twerp! In our days we got confined for that! And for the record I did my BMT in 1996 not the 1960s.
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BMT all the same
when come to reservist
shiok life
wake up late, never march this and that
they treat you like adults liao
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i haven serve my ns yet, but i feel that because of the technology advancement the training needs to be change.
no point training super "geng" soilder who fights with "chiong only " mindset
the army wants, soilders that can think and work with the upper ranks.
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the old generation will lament why the new guys get better treatment
the current batch will lament why their juniors in future will get better treatment
never ending cycle
i just orded a few days ago and consider myself fortunate to enlist in 06
where the tekan of the old days is gone
but i think some of the old days punishments i heard are downright demeaning and ought to have been abolished
with a conscript army u cant expect people to accept the shit thrown in their faces
its not like we volunteered to serve
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dont drag scouts into this...
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There was a time that some of our soldiers were actually tough enough.
Back in 1993, I remember this pampered brat, who made himself what we who have served NS have come to know as out-of-course, during my Basic Military Training. He dilly dallies himself with all the other out-of-coursers paying no mind to our PC, and eventually incurring his wrath on any particular days.. Why? Because daddy was rich enough to give some commander above my PC a hard time if he hurts so much as a hair on his head.
My parents couldn't afford a defense lawyer let alone sue anyone for anything even if we wanted to. So? For people like me? 'Deal with it son! That's supposed to make you a man.'
By all means improve certain conditions. But at the rate we are going. Lesser and lesser Singapore citizens would be willing to stay behind and fight for Singapore. Why? Because they'd rather run to the hills. Why? Because daddy can afford to..
In Singapore with money you can even buy Medical Record that will certify you that you are unable to carry a thimble in the Army.
Heck.. right before I finished my service.. there was even a Sargeant who came back to NS to finish off the rest of his service after furthering his studies. When confronted for using the unit computer for personal use DURING OFFICIAL OFFICE OPERATION.. The prick even threatened me that his uncle was a Director in DBS and would suffer me a fate worse than death..
So my fellow Singaporean's.. Saying our soldiers are becoming soft is a major understatement...
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I recommend anyone of you to get hold of these Movies:
Platoon
Heavy Metal Jacket
Jarhead
Honestly.. our soldiers can't deal with that kind of training. Let alone be ready for war.
But nevermind. There's still hope for our defense. Just leave it to us Malay hoodlum types and the Hokkien-Pengs or any random almost-O-level holder. We'll stay and fight.. if we have to.. :)
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If its a simple matter of today's youth being more vocal, I'm fine with that. I'm just worried that they are mentally soft. In my days, recruits would complain about being asked to clean the garbage dumpster room (that'll make you retch believe you me), having to do locker PT and having to scrub urinals with toothbrushes. These days I hear people complaining about food not good (despite it being much better than our time), not enough time to use recruit's mess, instructors always SHOUTING at them,etc .
Hello friend, I `ORDed' 10-11 years ago. I can tell you we will always talk about these things after the day is over. Today, the food sucks. Today our PTI today is a bit siau; maybe he did not get to see his gf yesterday. And so on and on. And I honestly believe this is the case everywhere as well. Not exactly an indicator of mental toughness. You want to see mental toughness. You compare our boys in thier desire to improve thier material well-being in the rat`s race to some of the people from other countries in the region. See who will last longer and win and who will retire to the farm and look after chickens and pigs.
Singaporeans are great complainers. End of story. But it is also good to be critical and self-improving. Botak and mangkuk complain about food to parent. Parent complain about gomen. You complain about the complainers. Now I complain about the complaining complainers.
Just leave it to us Malay hoodlum types and the Hokkien-Pengs or any random almost-O-level holder. We'll stay and fight.. if we have to.. :)
I resent such opinions because not only it is wrong and a simple generalization, it is doing an injustice to the people who have served national service from all walks of life and who will be ever ready to defend themselves and thier loved ones. I do not know where you have been in life. My buddies and I have all graduated from tertiary institutions(some of whom have done thier Masters) in Singapore will give you a good run for your money in terms of who will stay and fight. Pooi -> You !! Dont say others do not want fight just because you won`t.
In Singapore with money you can even buy Medical Record that will certify you that you are unable to carry a thimble in the Army.
You wanna throw such aspersions on the armed forces. Can you proof this? Can you tell me the whole process of how you are designated medically unfit and how long it will take? Stop day-dreaming lar and get your head out of the the clouds. Which doctor wants to put his reputation and job on the line when the SAF tests uncover the truth ? Im getting very suspicious of you.
I recommend anyone of you to get hold of these Movies:
Platoon
Heavy Metal Jacket
Jarhead
Honestly.. our soldiers can't deal with that kind of training. Let alone be ready for war.
I totally disagree with you. Get your head out of the cloud.
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Aiyah the army so good for wat? If really got war how many will actually stay to fight? At the end of the day half the nation escape by plane or ship, only the poor blokes left behind. In a war can last how long? Singapore got no resources, only our weapons. Can the guns be eaten? In war where got import? Food suppilies run out in like 3 wks and the soldiers starve to death. The army is merely a deterrent lah, no actual use one. In war the whole group desert and kill commanding officer... Got money hor liao zao oredi
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The problem with such discussions is that they are hypothetical and one-sided. Country X`s troops are softer than Country Y`s because they do not clean the rubbish bin anymore. Country X`s troops are more relaxed because..you know arh..thier SAR-21 got scope..my AK-47 got no scope and I have to use my naked eyes. Seconds later, the dude with AK-47 falls dead on the floor after being targetted first.
You think the general infantry in the US are super pro is it? They are just like us. They join the military to get some money and direction in life; and get sent to Iraq or elsewhere and after that they discharge from the military once thier contract is done. Give and take 2 years plus also. And yet, their superior training, equipment and skills shine in encounters with troops and insurgents. Do not look down on the skills you`ve learnt in NS.
A few minutes ago, a couple of Bangla workers were getting the poop from the rubbish bin downstairs. I stay in a flat lar. Not that rich. So what did they do? They pressed a button and this huge blue metal container containing yesterday`s rubbish tilts and pours the rubbish into the receiving rubbish truck. They are pampered right since they do not have to do it manually? They are mentally soft right?
Come on lah people. Acquisition of technology does not equate to mental weakness. What kind of comparison is that? By this contention, all the first worlders are weak now. A generation from now, soldiers in first world countries will have mini computers with them when they fight which helps them decide better. Weak right compared to us right now? Because we have to use our brains and they dont? So, thier generation weaker than ours? Where is the logic in that?
All I`ll say is this. I am very close to my former NS mates; among whom are Malays, Indians and Chinese folks. Im close to my family of course. And Im close to my car
(you think cheap is it?) and my house. And this country. You hurt them. Ka....I`ll go after your azz. And my friends feel the same way too. Too much assumptions based on unrelated generalizations is so wrong.The worst thing ever to do to a conscript based armed forces is to threaten and injure the things they love the most. I assure you they will be wilder than normal soldiers. The worst atrocities in wars are done by conscripts who throw civility to the win; geneva convention or no geneva convention. Go check.
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Hmm you can't deny that the SG army is transforming into a 3G army. It's the same when you go for war now, it's a 3G war, much defence is based on technology and advanced warfare and human intelligence, though the usual physical defense will still exist.
It's a new generation now, recruits or soldiers are living better lives, receiving more education. They have a different set of thinking altogether. Do you think they will bother to fight for the country if they go through barbaric torture causing them to have zero morales? That being said, harsh trainings still exist, it's just that it's more toned down now.
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Aiyah the army so good for wat? If really got war how many will actually stay to fight? At the end of the day half the nation escape by plane or ship, only the poor blokes left behind. In a war can last how long? Singapore got no resources, only our weapons. Can the guns be eaten? In war where got import? Food suppilies run out in like 3 wks and the soldiers starve to death. The army is merely a deterrent lah, no actual use one. In war the whole group desert and kill commanding officer... Got money hor liao zao oredi
Great first post. Someone do an ip check. What are our planes and ships for? Keep sea-lanes and air corrirdors open in peace-time and conflict for trade, food,etc. Which country saved the US can starve Singapore and lay a siege on Singapore? Utter rubbish. Do you know that many countries in this world including the ones in the region are not self sufficient when it comes to food ?
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Technology is good but without heartware, software is useless. No use having a PDA and night vision goggles and Landwarrior combat system if the soldier has a mental breakdown in the jungle
No one is saying that by using technology we are mentally weak. But by relying too much on technology and forgetting the roots or the basics is a big mistake. Why did the poorly equiped North Vietnamese managed to whoop the arse of the US army? Or more recently, why did the ragtag militia in Somalia kick the arse of the US army? Goes to show you that there is only so much that technology can accomplish.
Take a mentally tough soldier and give him technology and he becomes a killer. Take a guniang soldier and give him technology and he'll be ok at peacetime but when war breaks out he'd probably shoot himself in the foot.
There is a saying, to mould a man, you have to break him down and then mould him from scratch. Many of the elite units follow that belief. Obviously we are not training the entire army to be SOF qualified but still, you need to be mentally tough. My cousin's batch actually had someone who broke down and started crying in the middle of BIC. Another fellow in his platoon literally pissed his pants during grenade throwing.
I'm fine with good food, King Koil mattress, banglas cleaning their plates and all. All I'm saying is don't forget the basics. In my days, the CSM can be 1 cm away from your face and f-ing you for failing IPPT and we would suck it up, apologise and move on. My cousin was just whining about how after he failed his 2.4, his Sgt told him he was useless and how "hurt" he was, and how this is not the way to talk to people. Whine whine whine! All you need is half the coy to be this guniang and you are screwed.
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Aiyo,now wat century liao, all just sit behide the desk and fight war.
Hi Tech, using robots and fingers push the buttons.
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It's a new generation now, recruits or soldiers are living better lives, receiving more education. They have a different set of thinking altogether. Do you think they will bother to fight for the country if they go through barbaric torture causing them to have zero morales? That being said, harsh trainings still exist, it's just that it's more toned down now.
Exactly, training will be tough and it will commensuarate with the needs of the SAF. But how they are conducted now is probably catered to the needs of a more educated workforce. Maybe in the past, you kick a recruit in the ass to get something through his thick skull to motivate him. Now, you motivate him by encouraging him to do it and try to touch base with his logic and intellect. And if he still cant get it....its `4 letter word time' and tekan time again.
Though I know most instructors just go for the latter method as it is still easier and less time consuming. Times change and you need to adapt.
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No one is saying that by using technology we are mentally weak. But by relying too much on technology and forgetting the roots or the basics is a big mistake. Why did the poorly equiped North Vietnamese managed to whoop the arse of the US army? Or more recently, why did the ragtag militia in Somalia kick the arse of the US army? Goes to show you that there is only so much that technology can accomplish.
No one is saying that we are ignoring the `roots'. What are our boys undergoing training for 2 -2.5 years for? Might as well just ask them to sit at home and do online training.
The US lost the war because they they lost the will to fight a foriegn war(which did not threaten thier lives) at home. And who were thier enemies. Thats right. Conscript vietnamese soldiers. In addition, there is not exactly a vast tech disparity in those days as compared to today when you compare 3rd world forces to 1st world armed forces. About the Us in Somalia; they were completely outnumbered and under-equipped. If they had more equipment and troops, the result would have gone the other way. For every US soldier dead, dozens of Somalis died. That`s the difference between training, technology and competency and a simple man who takes up arms to fight.
Take a mentally tough soldier and give him technology and he becomes a killer. Take a guniang soldier and give him technology and he'll be ok at peacetime but when war breaks out he'd probably shoot himself in the foot.
Are`nt you over-exaggerating here? The Guniang soldier will try and survive. And that could mean killing an enemy to get his way out.
I'm fine with good food, King Koil mattress, banglas cleaning their plates and all. All I'm saying is don't forget the basics. In my days, the CSM can be 1 cm away from your face and f-ing you for failing IPPT and we would suck it up, apologise and move on. My cousin was just whining about how after he failed his 2.4, his Sgt told him he was useless and how "hurt" he was, and how this is not the way to talk to people. Whine whine whine! All you need is half the coy to be this guniang and you are screwed.
Well, arent you doing the same now? Whine whine whine about other people whining. Your argument is based on people complaining and whining about their circumstances. But Im telling you this has been there all the time and practically everywhere in the world. That`s what your typical recruit and mangkuk will tend to do; complain about instructor; complain about food, complain about gf, etc. This does not equate to mental weakness and job competency. When you went for NS training, you did not complain about something meh? food? instructor? another recruit with bad hygiene? hot girl you wish you can hump? Everything like heaven on earth for you? If so, then grats as you had a good time.
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All along wayang only leh...
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Originally posted by Skye2:
Great first post. Someone do an ip check. What are our planes and ships for? Keep sea-lanes and air corrirdors open in peace-time and conflict for trade, food,etc. Which country saved the US can starve Singapore and lay a siege on Singapore? Utter rubbish. Do you know that many countries in this world including the ones in the region are not self sufficient when it comes to food ?
Forget the IP check, heard of Mcdonalds? Btw the other countries u toking is wat? Vietnam? Cambodia? Pls lah, their army no nid tok one
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whats clear is one thing, sporeans lose out in the end
tough or senang ns period
ft wins in the end
jobs for ft
ns for sgporeans
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As a well educated Singaporean teenager, they won't sit there and kena F-ed and not feel bad about. So what is wrong with complaining about it? I've heard people complaining over paper cuts... so?
If you keep treating these abusing these kids, making them do locker PT, scold their father mother, what does that accomplish? You make these kids either hate YOU (an instructor) more, hate the Army more, or worse, decide to shoot his PC during his next live range. Being objective about it, what is BMT about? Its providing basic soldiering skills to these recruits, helping them to adapt to the regimented lifestyle of being in the army. Where does abuse such cleaning toilets with toothbrushes fit in? Mind you, kids nowadays are not dumb. They know that a toilet can be cleaned in a more efficient manner. Making them do something this inefficient only serves to leave a foul taste.And lets not even talk about the eventualities of War, and the brutality of combat. Unless the conscripts of the previous generations have had the experience of being intentionally shot at, or ducking for cover with live incoming artillery shells hounding their asses, don't even expect to apply these "expectations" to the "softer" 3G recruits.
All this, "I used to kena run around carrying a 155mm howitzer on my back, chiong up botak hill while pulling a broken down AMX-13 chained to my teeth and CSM duct taped to my ears while verbally abusing my lineage," is nothing more than an egotistical arguement parallel to "My dick is bigger than yours."
What they really need to instill into the recruits is the sense of camaraderie. The spirit that says, "if you don't quit, and I don't quit, we won't fail." Abuse does not get you there. That can only be accomplished by having an intense but objective training syllabus, that helping the recruits to understand the importance of the training.
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Or more recently, why did the ragtag militia in Somalia kick the arse of the US army? Goes to show you that there is only so much that technology can accomplish.
Was it really an arse-kicking or simply things going wrong in war?
Actually it was technology that saved the Americans in Somalia... they had a kill/loss ratio of 50:1 despite being heavily outnumbered. If it wasn't for the constant Little Bird strafing runs and night fighting ability they had, they would almost certainly have been overrun and killed.
Let's put it this way... if you would go into any war do you want to be equipped and trained like the Somalian militia or the American Rangers back then? I dunno about you, but I go with the Rangers...
What happened then had little to do with technology or mental toughness... it had to do with a plan going wrong and the soldiers having to fight their way out of a bad situtation.
In any case, the Somalian militia didn't see their American opponents as "soft". In fact they had a healthy respect for the battlefield prowess of Rangers.
And this attitude extends to the insurgents in Iraq... the insurgents who didn't respect their enemies were soon killed, and those who were captured often expressed surprise that the marksmanship and discipline of the yanks, having been "briefed" by their higher-ups that the American infantryman cannot fight.
Technology is just a tool, and you need to be creative to get the most out of it. Nobody said it made you invincible but you'll be a fool not to have it. You can be a good marksman but you can't shoot anything if your gun has a 10 meter group at 20 feet. You need both.
In fact it seems to me those who are making this whole "see they were more high-tech but still lost" argument is are the ones who have the distorted view of technology. War is far more complicated then that... those who are arguing that if only we are tougher at any cost, even if it means of training our soldiers in unnecessary and stupid things, we will win wars are making a rather big mistake.
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Skye2, you are missing the point! We used to whine but we whined about getting tekaned big time or getting confined just 'cos the signature touched the box on the armskote book. The whines I hear these days is because they got SCOLDED. Because the food is not nice. That's pathetic! And in my days the food really did suck. The tao kua was sour! These days the food is much better and they even get dessert and western food! Yet they still whine about it.
Its just like how someone cries when he gets a bayonet through his hand versus someone who cries when he gets a paper cut. Both are crying but the cause is very different. We b*tched about tekan which was damn bloody terok. They b*tch about verbal abuse. Have they gone so soft that they can't even take a tongue lashing?
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Skye2, you are missing the point! We used to whine but we whined about getting tekaned big time or getting confined just 'cos the signature touched the box on the armskote book. The whines I hear these days is because they got SCOLDED. Because the food is not nice. That's pathetic! And in my days the food really did suck. The tao kua was sour! These days the food is much better and they even get dessert and western food! Yet they still whine about it.
Its just like how someone cries when he gets a bayonet through his hand versus someone who cries when he gets a paper cut. Both are crying but the cause is very different. We b*tched about tekan which was damn bloody terok. They b*tch about verbal abuse. Have they gone so soft that they can't even take a tongue lashing?
Seriously, as an ex-BMTC instructor that ORDed in 2006 I had plenty of time to listen to recruits whine both in and outside of camp.
And most of them don't whine about being scolded... in fact they usually view the tounge lashing with a fair bit of dark humour, as in how creative Sarge can be at coming up with curses and how funny it is. It's only the one or two really problem ones in the platoon that can't take the verbal lashing, but there are always some of these jokers in there.
What they whine about, seems to me, is the same things that grunts back then whine about. Having to stay in camp for stupid reasons, doing stupid things and what have you not that seem to me very grunt things to do.
So I think I to disagree with you, in BMTC we didn't go all out to give our recruits an easy time and there are plenty of times we give them a hard time.