SAF Infantry Battalion Orbat
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Well, it's a bit complicated. The M16 only chaps are definitely LAW gunners. But we also have in those days M16 Sharpshooters or Designated Marksmen. They have a scope on the weapon.Originally posted by kotay:See if you can recall if there were soldiers carrying M16 and nothing else (other than SecCom). If there were, than it's 9MS. This is dependent on your men carrying all their issued weapons outfield. If someone conveniently "forgot" their LAW tube than it'll screw up the Picture.
Basically, in a 7MS, other than the SecCom, everybody else is carrying a support weapon - be it a M203, SAW or LAW.
In a 9MS, besides the SecCom, there are 2 other rifleman (incl 1 SS) who aren't carrying anything else.
So these days with the SAR21 is there still such a DM vocation?
So we may be operating on 7-men sections after all... -
Exactly, I don't recall there being anyone in the section that had only an M16 and nothing else. More and more, I think I can confirm now there are 3 groups in the section of my unit.Originally posted by Shotgun:Eh, paiseh. I checked by my bmt notebook.
Section 2IC is the 2nd M203, also Group 3 IC.
2nd LAW is the sharpshooter, and Group 2 IC
So is this correct?:
GROUP ONE
Sect Cmdr = rifle
M203 grenadier
LAW gunner
GROUP TWO
IC = LAW gunner/sharpshooter
SAW gunner
GROUP THREE
IC = M203 grenadier
SAW gunner -
20 years difference in age...Originally posted by kotay:Mein Gott ... you're on the end of the spectrum as Chino65 then ... you must be bloody young to still have your BMT notebook
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Can put bayonet on SAR21 meh?Originally posted by Shotgun:Bingo! ORD 2005 nia. I was the transition generation that were still issued with SBO and the last batch to take a reduced syllabus of bayonet fighting. -
I think so. I recall the SAR-21s in NDP 07 had bayonets fixed. Not sure if its improvised or not.
Yeah, only the sect comd and the LAW guys have an M-16S1. Though the sect comd doesnt carry a LAW, M203, or SAW... he's carrying other goodies in his sect comd bag. -
Yeap. Same as my batch.Originally posted by Shotgun:Bingo! ORD 2005 nia. I was the transition generation that were still issued with SBO and the last batch to take a reduced syllabus of bayonet fighting. -
I enlisted in 82. Before that it was 9 men per section, 3 section per PL, 3PL for 1 Coy and the Infantry Regiment consist of :-Originally posted by kotay:I'll hazard a guess ... what you eyes saw was a depleted Orbat as a result of no-shows/deferments/downgrades for ICT. Your ATEC would most probably have given you the closest to actual Orbat ... from an outside observer's POV.
From what I know of PDF Orbat, which isn't much, some of you guys are still formed up in the traditional 1980's Orbat. 9MS, Coy MGs (not Plt), 4 coys, etc. Do note that most Military formations, these days, are basically working in multiples of 3's
3 Sect = 1 Plt
3 Plt = 1 Coy
3 Coy = 1 Btn
3 Btn = 1 Bde
3 Bde = 1 Div
To complicate it slightly, you add in the HQ elements and support arms.
Trooper Coy x4
Support Coy x1
HQ Coy x1
4 Regiment = 1 Bde
4 Bde = 1 Div
during my NS day, the section was 8 men:-
Section :-
Group 1 x3 :- IC(M16), M203, M16 (heavy barriel)
2 x2:- M16, M16(training in map reading)
3 x3 :- 2IC(M16), M203, M16(heavy barriel)
PL :- section x3
Coy:- PL x3
Regiment :- Trooper Coy x4, Support x1, HQ x1
4 Regiment = 1 Bde
4 Bde = 1 Div
Still in memory, alway have 1 reserve strength for all attack mission.
Just before I was going to ROD, 1 section became 9 men(added a sharp shooter), Regiment, Bde & Div format still the same.
Don't know when, it become 7 men per section & only have 3 trooper Coy for the BN(formally was Regiment) & every level become x3
Note :- in 80s infantry eg 3 SIR is 3rd Singapore Infantry Regiment (strength is around 900 men) now is infantry BN ( around 500 men)
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I think the doctrine change from 9 to 7-men section was initiated in 1990. I remembered when I enlist in 1990, some of the training docs in BMT was still showing 9 men section and then sort of 'blanko' off the extra 2 men...Originally posted by seachfun:I enlisted in 82. Before that it was 9 men per section, 3 section per PL, 3PL for 1 Coy and the Infantry Regiment consist of :-
Trooper Coy x4
Support Coy x1
HQ Coy x1
4 Regiment = 1 Bde
4 Bde = 1 Div
during my NS day, the section was 8 men:-
Section :-
Group 1 x3 :- IC(M16), M203, M16 (heavy barriel)
2 x2:- M16, M16(training in map reading)
3 x3 :- 2IC(M16), M203, M16(heavy barriel)
PL :- section x3
Coy:- PL x3
Regiment :- Trooper Coy x4, Support x1, HQ x1
4 Regiment = 1 Bde
4 Bde = 1 Div
Still in memory, alway have 1 reserve strength for all attack mission.
Just before I was going to ROD, 1 section became 9 men(added a sharp shooter), Regiment, Bde & Div format still the same.
Don't know when, it become 7 men per section & only have 3 trooper Coy for the BN(formally was Regiment) & every level become x3
Note :- in 80s infantry eg 3 SIR is 3rd Singapore Infantry Regiment (strength is around 900 men) now is infantry BN ( around 500 men)
when i was in SAFINCOS and out of course there and become 'lobo', i also helped to update training packages to reflect the changes... last time dont' have powerpoint... everything is via flip charts and transparency... so a lot of manual work to make all the changes....
that was the time when we had 3 guards Bn and there was rumour of wanting to add a 4th guards bn due to the increased number of "men" available because of the downsizing of infantry section.... -
Yes. In 80s 1st guard was in Lim Chu KangOriginally posted by spencer99:I think the doctrine change from 9 to 7-men section was initiated in 1990. I remembered when I enlist in 1990, some of the training docs in BMT was still showing 9 men section and then sort of 'blanko' off the extra 2 men...
when i was in SAFINCOS and out of course there and become 'lobo', i also helped to update training packages to reflect the changes... last time dont' have powerpoint... everything is via flip charts and transparency... so a lot of manual work to make all the changes....
that was the time when we had 3 guards Bn and there was rumour of wanting to add a 4th guards bn due to the increased number of "men" available because of the downsizing of infantry section....
2nd guard was in Seleta Camp
3rd guard was in Upper Bukit Timah (behind now 41SAR)
Now, I am lost!!!!!!
Rumor for the 4th guards BN was for the 21 Div build up. My unit was part of the 1st batch in 21 Div and was involved in lot of testing new doctrine in ROC (1st 2 Div exercise), almost Bde full strength airlift in local.
What a mess. Logistic is a bigger headache expose in these exe. -
Same NS batch as me. We received the 7 men briefing just before we ROD ( ORD) in early to mid 1985. Mindef was smart and introduced the SAW 2 years earlier and the concept of a sharpshooter roughly the same time. The rationale given was that altho the infantry section will be smaller, the firepower and accuracy had been increased. At least, this was what we were briefed on.Originally posted by seachfun:I enlisted in 82. Before that it was 9 men per section, 3 section per PL, 3PL for 1 Coy and the Infantry Regiment consist of :-
Trooper Coy x4
Support Coy x1
HQ Coy x1
4 Regiment = 1 Bde
4 Bde = 1 Div
during my NS day, the section was 8 men:-
Section :-
Group 1 x3 :- IC(M16), M203, M16 (heavy barriel)
2 x2:- M16, M16(training in map reading)
3 x3 :- 2IC(M16), M203, M16(heavy barriel)
PL :- section x3
Coy:- PL x3
Regiment :- Trooper Coy x4, Support x1, HQ x1
4 Regiment = 1 Bde
4 Bde = 1 Div
Still in memory, alway have 1 reserve strength for all attack mission.
Just before I was going to ROD, 1 section became 9 men(added a sharp shooter), Regiment, Bde & Div format still the same.
Don't know when, it become 7 men per section & only have 3 trooper Coy for the BN(formally was Regiment) & every level become x3
Note :- in 80s infantry eg 3 SIR is 3rd Singapore Infantry Regiment (strength is around 900 men) now is infantry BN ( around 500 men) -
The other thing I want to add is that we can say all we want about the theoretical strength of the section, platoon etc... At the end of the day, real life would be different.... for those of you who did high key reservist exercises and deployed operationally.... you will know. Under-manned sections will either be forced to merge and form a complete one, the commander will be posted to do other duties , or depending on the mission, carry on as normal.
I had seen it in large scale heliborne assaults. No choice, mission requirements and tactics require it. -
What unit were you in? I was from 1Gds - during the time when we strip off the 3 Div logos and moved to 21 Div. You can say first batch as well.Originally posted by seachfun:Yes. In 80s 1st guard was in Lim Chu Kang
2nd guard was in Seleta Camp
3rd guard was in Upper Bukit Timah (behind now 41SAR)
Now, I am lost!!!!!!
Rumor for the 4th guards BN was for the 21 Div build up. My unit was part of the 1st batch in 21 Div and was involved in lot of testing new doctrine in ROC (1st 2 Div exercise), almost Bde full strength airlift in local.
What a mess. Logistic is a bigger headache expose in these exe.