Best Choice for USMC Infantry Automatic Rifle (IAR)?
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Please, no petty arguments.Originally posted by Shotgun:LPPL urself la.
NLNT -
I definitely wasn't giving a stamp of approval or disapproval. I expressed my opinion of the accuracy of your description and explained myself why I had such opinion.Originally posted by chino65:It is still LPPL cos we are talking about the same thing.
You are not happy with the way I describe it, tough. But hey, not everybody's opinion here need your approval.
It's been a good thread so far and the last thing we need is for you to start some beef over a choice of words. So are we cool?
On the other hand, you simply posted LPPL. Whose starting the beef? -
Sure, whatever... Let's move on.Originally posted by Shotgun:I definitely wasn't giving a stamp of approval or disapproval. I expressed my opinion of the accuracy of your description and explained myself why I had such opinion.
On the other hand, you simply posted LPPL. Whose starting the beef? -
Never noticed it before but if you watch the Ultimax video again, the weapon has the M16 mag adaptor on. It is chrome in colour so you can't miss it. Only on the last mag change to a Ultimax drum then the adaptor was taken off.
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Of course the shorter the barrel will reduce the range and accuracy - but that applies to the US Colt alsoOriginally posted by chino65:But how much will a short barrel on the Ultimax increase the recoil and affect the accuracy?
You must remember here you are not chosing a special force machine gun !!! You are providing to the grunts for use for general purpose..... you want a lMG that can be use for the widest range of missions .... from desert to beach storming that what marines are for !!!
So Ultimax is a better weapon - the standard barrel is suitable for the general warfare .... more , if ever needed smaller barrel can be issue to those that need close quarter combat.
Frankly, the Colt LAR - is just a improvement that make from the M16 basic system ...
The ulitmax designer have learn from experience from m16 & created ar-18 which is a superior weapon to m16. From then he take his experience and create ultimax 100 from scratch ... which let him take the best of the system, without having to work around the limitation of the m16 like the colt LAR. -
To re-phrase my question:Originally posted by storywolf:Of course the shorter the barrel will reduce the range and accuracy -
Will a shorter barrel increase recoil or muzzle climb with the Ultimax?
(Forget the competition, I am just asking a question about the Ultimax.) -
That the beauty for the ultimax 100 - the recoil is so little and muzzel climb rate is so much less than any other rifle, that have more to do with the "Constant Recoil principle" then the the lenght of the barrel.Originally posted by chino65:To re-phrase my question:
Will a shorter barrel increase recoil or muzzle climb with the Ultimax?
(Forget the competition, I am just asking a question about the Ultimax.)
Frankly with that little recoil, and low muzzel climb rate - even with a shorter barrel , think the shooter will not even notice it.
The only thing is with shorter barrel the effective range will go down. But then, even if it goes down, it still hit further and more acurate then the competitors. -
Imagine if you have a 7.62 variant of the Ultimax!
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But that will defeat the purpose of having a Section Automatic Weapon as interchangeability of identical calibre ammo and magazine is important.Originally posted by Shotgun:Imagine if you have a 7.62 variant of the Ultimax!
However, given that latest model of the Ultimax have the ability to change barrels and its low recoil and accuracy, this will make the 7.62mm Ultimax a suitable and attractive candidate for a new type of 'GPMG'. -
The reason a lot of people perfer 7.62 to 5.65 saw is due to the short coming of a lot of SAWs - which a lot of them are just automatic rifles with heavier barrel - which is lacking in accuracy, hitting power and range.Originally posted by Shotgun:Imagine if you have a 7.62 variant of the Ultimax!
However with ultimate 100, it is the first of the light machine gun that give the power like a 7.62 machine gun !!! Why because it have one of the best effective range among all the SAWs !!! With its controlablility and accuracy... the bullets are getting multiple hits easily - that it make up for the hitting power of the 7.62.
Thus it is a Saw that give the performance of a heavy machine gun. -
Can a single 5.56 round from the Ultimax penetrate a car's body, and still retain its hitting power and lethality?Originally posted by storywolf:The reason a lot of people perfer 7.62 to 5.65 saw is due to the short coming of a lot of SAWs - which a lot of them are just automatic rifles with heavier barrel - which is lacking in accuracy, hitting power and range.
However with ultimate 100, it is the first of the light machine gun that give the power like a 7.62 machine gun !!! Why because it have one of the best effective range among all the SAWs !!! With its controlablility and accuracy... the bullets are getting multiple hits easily - that it make up for the hitting power of the 7.62.
Thus it is a Saw that give the performance of a heavy machine gun.
What about a 7.62 round doing the same thing? -
Actually... a car body isn't really much cover from 5.56mm unless you are behind the engine block or something. You'll still get seriously injured if you are hit, thou not as much of course as if you took it straight of course.Originally posted by Shotgun:Can a single 5.56 round from the Ultimax penetrate a car's body, and still retain its hitting power and lethality?
What about a 7.62 round doing the same thing? -
Depends. More than often, you get hit by the fragments of the 5.56 rather than the entire round itself.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Actually... a car body isn't really much cover from 5.56mm unless you are behind the engine block or something. You'll still get seriously injured if you are hit, thou not as much of course as if you took it straight of course. -
You have been watching too much TV. Most of the time, the bullet will travel straight through. Unless stopped by the power window motor, Side Impact Protection bars.
Check out Buic of truth.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/ -
Yeah, I've been watching a lot of discovery channel. The 5.56 didn't shoot through the armored glass and doors cleanly. The bullets fragments and gets spewed inside. No penetration from side to side.
Nice testing shots from the pistols rounds tho. -
Actually it's isn't true.
Last year.. I saw a video of a guy playing with his M4 in a junk yard. He fired a few rounds out at about 100 yards... and guess what all did not pentrate the driver's door of an old car... .
Another was an article of a mil expert.. who got the chance to test out the Chinese 5.8. Well, the Chinese made 5.56mm M4 knock-off didn't penetrate a car of unknown make.. but the 5.8mm when right thru..
go figure
Forgot where's the links.. sorry. -
M4's penetration is much lesser than a standard M-16/SAR-21/Ultimax...cause of its shorter barrel.....
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A normal soft skin car body in no match for rifle-grade ammo, unless you are talking .22 LR
Armoured doors are another issue of course, but look at it this way. Even the most BMT recruit knows that the 5.56mm from our standard 20' barrel can penetrate a standard renforced concrete drain cover slab and hit the target behind. A normal car door certainly has far less protection then that!
So unless you happen to be behind something that is hard in your car like the engine block, your car is actually pretty transparent to bullets... you certainly don't want to open your car door and use it as cover like in those cliche' movies unless it has some ballistic protection built into it. -
or they don't make cars like they used to.. like the old tank like volvo.
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This is very true! And makes lots of sense.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Armoured doors are another issue of course, but look at it this way. Even the most BMT recruit knows that the 5.56mm from our standard 20' barrel can penetrate a standard renforced concrete drain cover slab and hit the target behind. A normal car door certainly has far less protection then that! -
Does the 5.56 round penetrate the concrete slab as a an entire round? I know it breaks it in a shot or 2. But penetrating outright.... ?
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I have fired rounds as parts of a BMT demo, against solid red brick wall, wood, sand bags.
The single 5.56mm round fired penetrates only wood (expected). A single 5.56mm round does not penetrate the brick wall, and sand bags absorb the rounds.
However, against multiple rounds, the red bricks will start to fall apart. Sand bags still absorb the rounds. Using a 7.62mm MG is the different story. -
When ultimax 100 have 2 to 3 times the effective range of M16 & even more effective range then M249 - the answer is already clear - you better not be in that car !!! it will penetrate !!!Originally posted by Shotgun:Can a single 5.56 round from the Ultimax penetrate a car's body, and still retain its hitting power and lethality?
What about a 7.62 round doing the same thing?
7.62 round are more hard hitting - of course who would not love it - but then it need to hit the target !!! So what if it can penetrate better, but if the gunner cannot hit it , it is of no use. A GPMG does not have that type of controlability or accuracy as the ultimax 100 ...
So if you want to argue on it is like what do the more damage - 1x 7.62 rds on target or 3x 5.56 rounds on target !!! Which frankly there is no answer for it as different situation call have different need.
But if you want a Infantry Auto Rifle - you are better of with a lighter one ultimax 100 for squad and platoon use and GPMG for specialise weapon support section. -
GPMG 10KGs leh, you cant even solo fire on the move.
I love the Ultimax, the only drawback was the cleaning and rusting
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How about a 7.62mm Ultimax? Best of both worlds! Only obvious problem is the additional weight of carrying the bigger rounds and a larger weapon perhaps?Originally posted by storywolf:When ultimax 100 have 2 to 3 times the effective range of M16 & even more effective range then M249 - the answer is already clear - you better not be in that car !!! it will penetrate !!!
7.62 round are more hard hitting - of course who would not love it - but then it need to hit the target !!! So what if it can penetrate better, but if the gunner cannot hit it , it is of no use. A GPMG does not have that type of controlability or accuracy as the ultimax 100 ...
So if you want to argue on it is like what do the more damage - 1x 7.62 rds on target or 3x 5.56 rounds on target !!! Which frankly there is no answer for it as different situation call have different need.
But if you want a Infantry Auto Rifle - you are better of with a lighter one ultimax 100 for squad and platoon use and GPMG for specialise weapon support section.