Russian Federation vs USA - ICBMs. Who has the edge?
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Basically what they mean by that is, LR search radars have a hard minimum floor below which their radars cannot and DO not detect stuff.
Let's SAY if the LR search radar of the S-400 minimum floor is 10 meters above ground level, a cruise missile using terrain hugging tech flying 3 meters above ground will reach and destroy the S-400 without a hitch. The S-400 cannot defend itself simply because it's missile is unable to get a lock nor locate the cruise missile from it's LR search radar. That's physics explained.(Am i right? heh)
Oh by the way regarding your explaination of "things getting in the tomahawk's way at 3 meters above ground", that's what terrain avoidance systems are for.
IF die die the terrain is not suitable for below 10 metre travel the tomahawk will pop up ABOVE the layer for as short a time as possible. Yes the S-400 will then get a track and lock but by the time the thing is launch, the cruise missle might be went back underneath the minimum detacting height and the missile fired to counter the tomahawk will lose it's lock and kill itself/go dumb/whatever. -
Yeah, radar systems have a deck. The S-300 had a 50ft deck in static modes. The S-400... heh, i think it shouldn't be any higher than that. Of course, I've no hard information on the S-400's deck yet.
In static modes, the S-300's search radar, Flaplid IIRC, is mounted on a tall tower to allow it to achieve a degree of over the horizon coverage. -
s 300 can receive streaming radar from other landbase radar too...because it is first designed to counter the nuclear warhead...some genius figure out that if it can slave it self with landbased ICBM sensory...it should be able to slave it self to AWACS...hence the ability to hit low flying cruise missile.
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dear mr coolant. courtesy of globalsecurity.com and ITAR-TASS World Service, i present this to you. i recall you mentioning tomahawk can be shot down by s-400 but isn't economically viable.Originally posted by coolant:Lol, Ignorance leads to annoyance!
The basic law of physics is the ray from the S-400 radar canÂ’t penetrate the radar horizon and will either bounce back or be absorbed by the terrain surface. If the Tomahawk is below the S-400Â’s radar horizon, then the radar canÂ’t detect the target even though it has the advertised maximum detection range in hundreds kms. Mainly Depending on the height of the radar, the radar horizon in the open sea (the flattest terrain possible) is usually 20-40 kms.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/1999/FTS19990505000617.htm
for your kind reference.
Russian S-400 Missile Can Hit Radar, AWACS Aircraft
ITAR-TASS World Service 5 May 99
By Anatoliy Yurkin
MOSCOW, May 5 (Itar-Tass) - The new Russian air defence S-400 Triumf system is capable of hitting radar reconnaissance and AWACS planes, which raises considerably its competitiveness on the world arms market, says the article "Triumf is put on alert", published in the May issue of the Voenny Parad journal which is now being put on sale and is distributed among subscribers. The S-400 is designed to hit modern and future attack aircraft at a distance of 400 km: tactical and strategic aviation jets, cruises of the Tomahawk type and other missiles", the article notes. Triumf successfully fights air targets, manufactured with the use of "stealth" technology at all altitudes of their combat operation and at maximum distances. When creating this system, Russian specialists used latest technologies in the radar industry, microelement base and computer engineering. In the opinion of general designer Vladimir Svetlov, Triumf is the world's first system which can selectively work with the use of several types of missiles. "The long-range missile has no analogues. It eclipses the American Patriot-3 system by around 100 percent, as does the French Aster, he claimed. .
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same with all new systems. why do you think the russian federation or any sensible power should release national secrets in public? they simply won't!Originally posted by |-|05|:You know guys....what is the point off all these? seriously i've lost it all.
And yes the limitations of ANY defence systems is in the range of it's detection system. The S-400 might be good but without airborne radar or a series of radars placed farther out it's very limited in whart it can do.
Anyway like i've said before the S-400 has not been to war and it has not been tested in combat so by far and large it is only CLAIMED.
Heck i hardly even see it's test data.
Could you be so kind as to provide some?
and from a usa based site, with a generous sprinkling of chest-thumping, says
http://www.strategypage.com/fyeo/howtomakewar/default.asp?target=HTADA.HTMAugust 6, 2005: Russia will finally, after many years of delays, deploy its S400 anti-aircraft missile system. Roughly comparable to the latest U.S. Patriot systems, the S400 was supposed to enter service five years ago. But money, and technical, problems kept delaying things. (pro-usa, anti-russian propaganda!)The main feature of the S400 (compared to the earlier S300) is its search radar, which has a maximum range of 500 kilometers. The S400 will use five different missiles, depending on range (from 40-400 kilometers) and target type. Altitude of engagement ranges from 20-90,000 feet. In the West, the S400 is often referred to as the SA20. Russia expects to export the S400, and is stressing the systemÂ’s ability to hit ballistic missiles and stealthy aircraft.
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Originally posted by coolant:
not precisely replying to you, but anyways, this is about effective range beyond the horizon of s-400 radar.
As far as I know, the currently deployed S-400 is actually evolved from now defunct S300 PM3, so you can see the current S400 is basically the latest S-300 ADS. Basically you can use openly available S300PM2/PMU2Â’s data to assess it.
As for the 400km ranged S400 with big 40N6 missile we always see in the various articles, that one is still under development and therefore no news and data for it.
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/airdef/s-400.htm
The Fakel Machine Building Design Bureau has developed two new missiles for Triumf.
The "big" missile [designation otherwise unknown] has a range of up to 400 km and will be able to engage "over- the-horizon [OTH]" targets using a new seeker head developed by Almaz Central Design Bureau. This seeker can operate in both a semiactive and active mode, with the seeker switched to a search mode on ground command and homing on targets independently. Targets for this missile include airborne early warning and control aircraft as well as jammers.
The 9M96 missile is designed to destroy aircraft and air- delivered weapons at ranges in excess of 120 km. The missile is small-- considerably lighter than the ZUR 48N6Ye used in the S-300PMU1 systems and the Favorit. The missile is equipped with an active homing head and has an estimated single shot kill probability of 0.9 for manned aircraft and 0.8 for unmanned maneuvering aircraft. a gas-dynamic control system enables the 9M96 missile to maneuver at altitudes of up to 35 km at forces of over 20g, which permits engagment of non- strategic ballistic missiles. A mockup of the missile was set up at an Athens arms exhibition in October 1998. One 9M96 modification will become the basic long-range weapon of Air Force combat aircraft, and may become the standardized missile for air defense SAM systems, ship-launched air defense missile systems, and fighter aircraft. -
that's how a cowboy hollywood movie may depict it. in hollywood movies, somehow usa never loses anything. is always winning, 100%, no losses, no cowardice, no avarice, no major defeats, no ignominy whatsoever.Originally posted by CM06:Basically what they mean by that is, LR search radars have a hard minimum floor below which their radars cannot and DO not detect stuff.
Let's SAY if the LR search radar of the S-400 minimum floor is 10 meters above ground level, a cruise missile using terrain hugging tech flying 3 meters above ground will reach and destroy the S-400 without a hitch. The S-400 cannot defend itself simply because it's missile is unable to get a lock nor locate the cruise missile from it's LR search radar. That's physics explained.(Am i right? heh)
Oh by the way regarding your explaination of "things getting in the tomahawk's way at 3 meters above ground", that's what terrain avoidance systems are for.
IF die die the terrain is not suitable for below 10 metre travel the tomahawk will pop up ABOVE the layer for as short a time as possible. Yes the S-400 will then get a track and lock but by the time the thing is launch, the cruise missle might be went back underneath the minimum detacting height and the missile fired to counter the tomahawk will lose it's lock and kill itself/go dumb/whatever.
like yours, where you're saying a tomahawk can avoid s-400. -
that's how a cowboy hollywood movie may depict it. in hollywood movies, somehow usa never loses anything. is always winning, 100%, no losses, no cowardice, no avarice, no major defeats, no ignominy whatsoever.Originally posted by CM06:Basically what they mean by that is, LR search radars have a hard minimum floor below which their radars cannot and DO not detect stuff.
Let's SAY if the LR search radar of the S-400 minimum floor is 10 meters above ground level, a cruise missile using terrain hugging tech flying 3 meters above ground will reach and destroy the S-400 without a hitch. The S-400 cannot defend itself simply because it's missile is unable to get a lock nor locate the cruise missile from it's LR search radar. That's physics explained.(Am i right? heh)
Oh by the way regarding your explaination of "things getting in the tomahawk's way at 3 meters above ground", that's what terrain avoidance systems are for.
IF die die the terrain is not suitable for below 10 metre travel the tomahawk will pop up ABOVE the layer for as short a time as possible. Yes the S-400 will then get a track and lock but by the time the thing is launch, the cruise missle might be went back underneath the minimum detacting height and the missile fired to counter the tomahawk will lose it's lock and kill itself/go dumb/whatever.
like yours, where you're saying a tomahawk can avoid s-400. 20 feet is the minimum 'floor' you're talking about according to a yankee site i linked to, and tomahawk is specifically mentioned as a target of s-400 among other things, in another article hosted in a yankee site. -
Lol, As usual, you never understand the stuff that you are quoting or talking about, even the article you quoted has already given you the answer, yet you still drew the wrong conclusion upon it. I have highlighted the part below that exactly explained why the said S-400 will have the over the horizon ENGAGEMENT ability,Originally posted by protonhybrid:not precisely replying to you, but anyways, this is about effective range beyond the horizon of s-400 radar.
The "big" missile [designation otherwise unknown] has a range of up to 400 km and will be able to engage "over- the-horizon [OTH]" targets using a new seeker head developed by Almaz Central Design Bureau. This seeker can operate in both a semiactive and active mode,
It’s obvious that the over the horizon engagement/attack ability is provided by the said S-400 missile’s ACTIVE RADAR SEEKER, NOT because the S-400 Radar has the “effective range beyond the horizon” as you misunderstood.
An s-400 unit will have to 1st DETECTs the target before it ENGAGEs the target. What I said is the S-400Â’s radar doesnÂ’t have the ability to detect the target over the horizon, I never say the proposed S-400 will never have the ability to engage or attack the OTH target. But you have to understand if the S-400 Radar canÂ’t detect the target OTH, how it will launch the S-400 missile towards the horizon? if the S-400 missile is not launched, how the missileÂ’s onboard radar seeker will start to work that provides the OTH engagement ability? -
Your level of understanding of the military basics are well demoed so far, so I won’t be surprised you would try all the best to comb the web and find 1 or 2 pieces of whatever “ food for thought” that appears online without your own knowledge to make a selective judgement. You can desperately search all over the web to find something suiting your argument but just ignore the plain/ basic factor that almost every army deploys low tier /close in air defense systems that counter the threat from the low flying targets may suddenly pop up from the horizon. I even went so far that I gave you how the Russian Army deploys low tie TOH-M1 and Tunguska CIWS to protect S-300/400 unit from the low flying cruise missile attack.Originally posted by protonhybrid:for your kind reference. -
Originally posted by coolant:
look dude i dont know why you wanted to twist word like that...the article clearly said
Lol, As usual, you never understand the stuff what you are quoting or talking about, even the article you quoted has already given you the answer, yet you still drew the wrong conclusion upon it. I have highlighted the part below that exactly explained why the said S-400 will have the over the horizon [b]ENGAGEMENT ability,
The "big" missile [designation otherwise unknown] has a range of up to 400 km and will be able to engage "over- the-horizon [OTH]" targets using a new seeker head developed by Almaz Central Design Bureau. This seeker can operate in both a semiactive and active mode,
It’s obvious that the over the horizon engagement/attack ability is provided the said S-400 missile’s ACTIVE RADAR SEEKER, NOT because the S-400 Radar has the “effective range beyond the horizon” as you misunderstood.
An s-400 unit will have to 1st DETECTs the target before it ENGAGEs the target. What I said is the S-400Â’s radar doesnÂ’t have the ability to detect the target over the horizon, I never say the proposed S-400 will never have the ability to engage or attack the OTH target. But you have to understand if the S-400 Radar canÂ’t detect the target OTH, how it will launch the S-400 missile towards the horizon? if the S-400 missile is not launched, how the missileÂ’s onboard radar seeker will start to work that provides the OTH engagement ability?
[/b]has a range of up to 400 km
meaning the missile have this rangeand will be able to engage "over- the-horizon [OTH]" targets
meaning it able to engage OTH targetusing a new seeker head developed by Almaz Central Design Bureau. This seeker can operate in both a semiactive and [b]active mode,
this is a no brainer...it literally use its own seeker....
ofcourse its also a no brainer to figure out that the S400 is an intergrated system which mean the detection of target were not necessarily by its own radar ..which also mean it can received target position even before the target reach its detection range.... so why the fuss? -
again the article clearly said the system have multiple type of missile...and able to engage as close as 20km (which is the edge of shorads).... at 20 km is not OTH. Obviously the russian try to designed a multi tier multi level air defence missile.... the reason also obvious...to have everything in one system is better than to have a couple of TOR-M1...and S300...and whatever else dragging behind the CAD? the smaller the number (yet able to perform all task) is better.Originally posted by coolant:Your level of understanding of the military basics are well demoed so far, so I won’t be surprised you would try all the best to comb the web and find 1 or 2 pieces of whatever “ food for thought” that appears online without your own knowledge to make a selective judgement. You can desperately search all over the web to find something suiting your argument but just ignore the plain/ basic factor that almost every army deploys low tier /close in air defense systems that counter the threat from the low flying targets may suddenly pop up from the horizon. I even went so far that I gave you how the Russian Army deploys low tie TOH-M1 and Tunguska CIWS to protect S-300/400 unit from the low flying cruise missile attack.
Tunguska were not meant to shoot down low flying cruise missile...it can but doesnt mean it should. -
At least Proton has realized that thereÂ’s a physical barrier that limits the S-400Â’s radar canÂ’t detect whatever targets at itÂ’s maximum range, yet a slowmo like you only till now wants me to repeat whatever I have explained in my previous posts? If a no brainer likes you want to give it a try AGAIN: IÂ’ll repeat here again: How your S-300/400 engagement radar, as advertised in hundreds kms range, detects a low flying Tomahawk, just several meters above the ground, over the horizon, maybe 20kms away?
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Lol, in the land, you are assuming within 20kms radius, there wouldnÂ’t be any hilly terrain which the Tomahawk will exactly capitalize. That works out 1260 sq kms in total!Originally posted by tankfanatic:again the article clearly said the system have multiple type of missile...and able to engage as close as 20km (which is the edge of shorads).... at 20 km is not OTH. Obviously the russian try to designed a multi tier multi level air defence missile.... the reason also obvious...to have everything in one system is better than to have a couple of TOR-M1...and S300...and whatever else dragging behind the CAD? the smaller the number (yet able to perform all task) is better.
Tunguska were not meant to shoot down low flying cruise missile...it can but doesnt mean it should.
You seem to believe whatever junks that appears online without using your own mind to judge, S400 is intended to feature as many types as possible missiles. But only the S400 evolved from S300PM-3 is actually deployed, an S-300 is only 20kms in range! What a joke!
No matter how many types of missile, the engagement radar of S400/300 is always the same. Which means the profile will be the same. -
Ya, a brain with too much anyhow thinking will come out this super duper SAMs. You probably play too much PC games that leads you have such thinking, tell me any type of SAMs that can be guided by the offboard radars in the world, sorry, not in the computer games.Originally posted by tankfanatic:this is a no brainer...it literally use its own seeker....
ofcourse its also a no brainer to figure out that the S400 is an intergrated system which mean the detection of target were not necessarily by its own radar ..which also mean it can received target position even before the target reach its detection range.... so why the fuss?
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Remind u horizon issue is just one of many tricky issues for long range “big “ SAMs to handle the low flying cruise missile, there are other issues like what Shotgun mentioned the “deck” height in his post.Originally posted by tankfanatic:again the article clearly said the system have multiple type of missile...and able to engage as close as 20km (which is the edge of shorads).... at 20 km is not OTH. Obviously the russian try to designed a multi tier multi level air defence missile.... the reason also obvious...to have everything in one system is better than to have a couple of TOR-M1...and S300...and whatever else dragging behind the CAD? the smaller the number (yet able to perform all task) is better.
Tunguska were not meant to shoot down low flying cruise missile...it can but doesnt mean it should. -
look if you really want to debate this could you please loose the insult? why the heck when ever someone disagree with you..you have to insult by calling other people stupid? you are so dense are you?
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Guess who called “ no brainer” 1st.
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u (bleep) 'a no brainer' means easy and clear without any doubt...it doesnt imply to anyone..it just meant that the informationa is easy to understand. (bleeping bleepole)Originally posted by coolant:Guess who called “ no brainer” 1st. -
nevermind. Proton did say the minimum engagement for S-400 is 6.6 meters. How the tomahawk performs i dont know. Cant find it on the web.
I sure didnt mean hollywood though. What i was trying to show was, there's no such thing as one ADS that can engage EVERYTHING flying in the air. -
allright....i dont want to argue on this S400 thingy...since we know only squat about it...... but this tomahawk..is real and the russian were really threathened by it.....can the tomahawk be detected during its launch?
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http://www.ausairpower.net/clamshell.html
Look at an SA-10 battery and u see how one system covers both High and Low altitude. The radar themselves can be elevated on semi-mobile masts to increase low level coverage.
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Grumble-Gargoyle.html
And the result is a degree of over the horizon coverage.
The S-400 introduces BMD, and stealth detecting capabilities. More importantly it denies the safety of medium to high altitude. -
the link says it all...S300 can engage low flying cruise missile
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Unless you have a stealthy cruise missile flying terrain masking profiles. Low altitude radar coverage is more often limited by terrain. Of course, not that anyone would want to put a critical infrastructure near some canyon corridor for low -level penetration attacks.
That would be stupidity on the level of "Death Star Trenches with a Shaft at the end leading directly to the core." -
coolant, i didn't post here for a few days. lay it off man, it's obvious russian federation is FAR superior to usa in icbm - defensively and offensively.
you posted nothing to counter that. all you've been rambling about is how s-400's radar isn't supposed to have the range it claims since there is a basic physical law that prohibits it. when i asked what it is, you said it's "radar horizon"..."law"
and i posted sources from cowboy sources to prove that even cowboys know s-400 is far superior to tiny tomahawks, or any other missiles cowboys can field.