If D-Day failed..
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A more interesting question would be, what if the atom bomb was used on Berlin.
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I think it's safe to say, If the W.Allies didn't make it past the fortress wall, The Germans stood a chance to defeat or force a stalemate in Russia as Stalin has time and time urged the Allies to open another front in the Western which led to significant resource lost.
Another two scenario to consider. What if Hitler didn't declare war on US? What if the 3 army groups actually made it to Moscow before the 1942 winter
If Hitler didn't stupidly fall in Japan's plot, He could have actually forced the British to their knees. Because of Japan, Hitler lost the war, On accounts that they requested that as Ally, Germany should declare war on US AND a neutrality pact signed between the Japanese and Soviets allowed the Reds to direct men and resources to the endangered capital.
Of the 3 army groups in Russia, It came to about 4.5 million men, over 25,000 worth of artillery, planes and tanks. Had the advance on the Moscow defense line been swift considering that the only people holding the line were draftees, old men, women and even childrens. Imagine the amount of damage Germany could have made to the W.Allies on the western front? -
That's unthinkable - why would one angmo country drop TWO atomic bombs on another angmo country.Originally posted by LazerLordz:A more interesting question would be, what if the atom bomb was used on Berlin.
Asian country no problem. -
Try again later.Soviet union can do the job.
Obviously they have to land on france to end the war or wait to develop rocket technology to send nuclear missiles. -
There's no such thing as the unthinkableOriginally posted by chino65:That's unthinkable - why would one angmo country drop TWO atomic bombs on another angmo country.
Asian country no problem.
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To set the record straight...the atomic bomb is initially intended to be used against Nazi Germany but the bomb comes too late as Nazi Germany is being defeated by the Allies by then.Originally posted by chino65:That's unthinkable - why would one angmo country drop TWO atomic bombs on another angmo country.
Asian country no problem.
However, i do agree with your opinion of a civilised Western country will be reluctant to nuke another civilised Western country be it that this country is the enemy. The West do not really thought of the Japanese as civilised and as their equal then. Its racial supremacy at work, remanants of colonial era thinking.
Further more the Japanese attacked neutral USA at Pearl Harbour without warning, thus some how they feel that it is justified to use a devastating form of attack on Japan. -
they really did the right thing on A bomb.. jus look at the way jap treat those countries they conquered
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Just to share... the US 8th AF and the RAF Bomber Command was bombing Germany during WW2.... many of the attacks intentionally target civilians as they are easilier to hit and the justification that the civilians are indirectly contributing to the war effort and the collaspe in morale in home cities is important....
in fact the head of RAF bomber command Arthur Harris aka "Bomber" Harris use to say that if the Allies lose the war, he will be tried as a war criminal!
so i can imagine the allies dropping the a-bomb on nazi germany... it was a different era then... -
that is too inhuman...Originally posted by LazerLordz:A more interesting question would be, what if the atom bomb was used on Berlin. -
It's a war, nothing is inhumane and nothing is an atrocity in war.Originally posted by popikachu:that is too inhuman... -
TWO bombs were actually dropped over Nagasaki and Hiroshima, inhuman or not?Originally posted by popikachu:that is too inhuman... -
Actually, the A-bomb would have caused less damages. The entire Europe and Japanese economy was largely destroyed by Traditional and Incendary Bombs, dropped from the Bomber Command and US Air Force.Originally posted by popikachu:that is too inhuman...
The only thing bad about A-bomb is the contamination they causes. -
An even more unthinkable scenario would be the Nazi German came up with the bomb first, what would happened even if the allied succeeded in D day?
after the defeat on D days. Wehrmacht were on the run until Belgium to reorg. under such circumstance, Hitler would have no hesitation in dropping a bomb in France, and another one in England. That would effectively stop the allied advance.
Next, the eastern front would be bombed and the next target would be the USA.
Asia would be spared the bomb but nobody would come to help against the Japanese. It would be a different world. -
Knowing the japanese, they would rather die for their emperor than to surrender. actually the justification to bomb japan was that hundreds of thousands of allied forces would die trying to bring the Jap to their kneels in the conventional ways. the bombs actually cut short the agony and saved the lives of hundred of thousands of the allied forces, and may be that of many japanese.Originally posted by abao:Actually, the A-bomb would have caused less damages. The entire Europe and Japanese economy was largely destroyed by Traditional and Incendary Bombs, dropped from the Bomber Command and US Air Force.
The only thing bad about A-bomb is the contamination they causes. -
I blame the fact that Nazi's propaganda war did not succeed as well as they intended, Their spy in Britain actually became double agent. Initially they believed that the Allies would attack France from Calaise but they instead landed in Normandy. During the invasion, Rommel and his senior officers were on leave hence reserve forces were hesitant to dispatch reinforcements from Calaise to Normandy in fear of a second Allied beachead.Originally posted by sgdiehard:An even more unthinkable scenario would be the Nazi German came up with the bomb first, what would happened even if the allied succeeded in D day?
after the defeat on D days. Wehrmacht were on the run until Belgium to reorg. under such circumstance, Hitler would have no hesitation in dropping a bomb in France, and another one in England. That would effectively stop the allied advance.
Next, the eastern front would be bombed and the next target would be the USA.
Asia would be spared the bomb but nobody would come to help against the Japanese. It would be a different world.
And I dare say another turning point of the war was when Rommel was forced to commit suicide. -
I wish I know why people called me childish when alot of members here do not even understand ww2 well...Originally posted by sgdiehard:An even more unthinkable scenario would be the Nazi German came up with the bomb first, what would happened even if the allied succeeded in D day?
after the defeat on D days. Wehrmacht were on the run until Belgium to reorg. under such circumstance, Hitler would have no hesitation in dropping a bomb in France, and another one in England. That would effectively stop the allied advance.
Next, the eastern front would be bombed and the next target would be the USA.
Asia would be spared the bomb but nobody would come to help against the Japanese. It would be a different world.
Please...even if germany developed the atomic bomb...can they make enough atomic bombs to make a difference?
The atomic bombing of Japan is SIMPLY the FINAL stroke the allies needed to win against Japan.
Japan was losing the war EVER SINCE midway.
So let's say Germany managed to built 1-2 atomic bomb...how will that change the war? It will just make the allies more pissed. And the allies is ALWAYS in a stronger position than the axis.
CAN germany bomb the US?
Answer is a flat NO. Hell...even Japan could not reach and attack the US mainland...their logisitc is stretched to the fullest for them to bomb pearl harbor.
The allies WON the war from 1942 onwards. THE MOMMENT USA and Russia entered the war means the axis powers is screwed.
The allies can afford to replace their lose...the axis can't. Japan never managed to replace their well-trained aviators since midway.
And the most germany can do is to simply wish that they could stop russia.
Hell...the allies do not even need D-Day to win.
The only thing D-Day did is to halt the extend of russia influence in europe...
To singaporeans who think we will be living under the japanese once D-Day failed...think again.
There is NO possible way for the Axis to win.
No wonder weapons, no atomic bombs (unless germany can magically built enough nuclear weapons during a war) can change the tide of war. WW2 is one sided the second US and russia entered the war on the axis side.
Why are we even debating this???
The allies will win ww2 NO matter what. -
Actually, read up more on the events, not just major scale operations. Before you make such a sweeping statement.Originally posted by ray243:I wish I know why people called me childish when alot of members here do not even understand ww2 well...
The allies will win ww2 NO matter what.
Not just the battles which Germany lost, but also on the amount of damage that was inflicted on the German war effort.
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remove the 't' in ya nick and u will be a warlord....Originally posted by Shotgun:If D-day had a possibility of failing, it would have been caused by the weather. The men behind the lines would have to last until the invasion can take place. Oh, did I mention we'd be fighting another World War 4, where facism goes full on against communism?
I'd be speaking Japanese too.
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no matter what....germany and japan started their respective war theatres for their own selfish gain thus already losing moral ground....i liken it to moral war....eventually the almighty(believe it if u want to) were making the axis to lose the war eventually.....a side which started war without a good reason will eventually fall....
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I too was wondering why people called you childish......until I read some of the statement you made.Originally posted by ray243:I wish I know why people called me childish when alot of members here do not even understand ww2 well...
Hell...the allies do not even need D-Day to win.
The only thing D-Day did is to halt the extend of russia influence in europe...
The allies will win ww2 NO matter what. -
x2 to ray...
US alone would be enuf
their economy and manpower was a lot more then germany...
and, the atomic bomb, 2 was drop and a 3rd one almost on tokyo and that was then the jap surrender...
US dun really wanted to cripple germany and japan... they just wanted to end the war...
it was russia who wanted to crippled the germany badly
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The only chance germany and Japan can hope to achieve is a ceasefire...it is impossible for germany and Japan to actually get a surrender agreement of the US.Originally posted by Agenda:Actually, read up more on the events, not just major scale operations. Before you make such a sweeping statement.
Not just the battles which Germany lost, but also on the amount of damage that was inflicted on the German war effort.
ADM. Yamamotto's attack on pearl harbor is simply to force the US out of the war...not defeating the US.
Once the US geared up...the axis are screwed.
I will take the allies leaders screw up almost all their battle for the axis to stand a chance....
Sweeping statement? I would like you to show me some prove that the axis actually stand a chance to defeat the allies. -
If you actually bothered to read my posts, then you would understand the points I have mentioned especially the death of Rommel. Had Normandy not been a success, there would be 2,000 Tiger I and 1,500 Tiger II on the eastern front.Originally posted by ray243:The only chance germany and Japan can hope to achieve is a ceasefire...it is impossible for germany and Japan to actually get a surrender agreement of the US.
ADM. Yamamotto's attack on pearl harbor is simply to force the US out of the war...not defeating the US.
Once the US geared up...the axis are screwed.
I will take the allies leaders screw up almost all their battle for the axis to stand a chance....
Sweeping statement? I would like you to show me some prove that the axis actually stand a chance to defeat the allies.
I don't care about how the Japanese fared but in the European theater, Germany had the upperhand believe it or not. Only the Russian IS-2 was capable of any chance of destroying the Tiger tanks even then, they had to go within 500m of it.
The W.Allies didn't have any tanks to counter even the Panther upfront, their Shermans were pretty much scrap metal in the later parts of war and the M26 weren't even deployed in large enough numbers to be effective. -
Originally posted by Agenda:
If the Desert Fox had been alive then the Allies would have a big headache fighting to Germany.
The 17 pounder QF can penetrate the Tiger and Panther though, and the British fixed them onto Shermans to form their own Fireflys.
That said, if D-Day failed, and the Allies were sent back to Britain, we can be sure that the Desert Fox wouldnt give them a second chance. Then German High Command can rush all the Panzers to the Eastern Front. Add that to the 10:1 kill ratio for the average German panzer and the Soviets would probably get counter-attacked back to Ukraine or Russia proper. That is if Hilter didnt screw up againOriginally posted by ray246
Had the US not drop the A-Bomb, and executed plans for the invasion of the Japanese Homelands, there is a small chance the US would have failed, actually.
The Offical Strategy of the IJA late 1945 was a Total War, and to that ends they managed to get every civillan to arm themselves with whatever weapons they had on their hands. Add that to the very favourable terrian which in the hands of a competent General would be able to turn each battle into a Iwo Jima (now called io tou) or Okinawa campaign but 10 times bloodier.
In their hands were also 1000+ suicide planes and countless suicide boats for downing invasion ships. Speaking of the IJN, they had a few heavily damaged ships, such as the ex-BB Nagato, where she was disengined and AA Guns removed to serve as a static gun platform.
Even though the Japanese has nearly lost, they were determined to give their all, and hardened their Home Defences.
Now going into hypotechical mode, if the Allies were rebuffed at Normandy, then consequently the Soviets wouldnt send troops back to their Far East and engage battle with the IJA in late 1945. If that didnt happen, Japan would have Manchuria's resources and the entire Kwantung Army at its disposal. That would mean another 200k men and 2000 planes more to fight. -
Oh, btw I think more Panthers (aka Panzer V) should be built instead of the Tigers. The Panther, being faster and similarly armed, will be able to give the German army better mobility for attacking.