Is British withdrawal from Basra a Defeat?
-
Today, UK forces will withdraw from the city of Basra....
Methinks it's a defeat.......running away......what say you?
British tank officer burns.....
British jeep petrol-bombed under bridge
Iraqi militiaman taking cover after blasting British convoy
The British won the war, but lost the peace......the people in Basra now will suffer ender the Islamic Al-Qaeda fanatics. Women now must wear veils.
They were much happier under the secular Sadaam Hussein....... -
you military nuts never learnt huh?
no one wins in a military standoff.. -
Just like Vietnam.
The US won nearly every battle but lost the stomach to fight.
Similarly in Iraq...
...The Iraqis will never lose the stomach to fight. It's their home - they DO NOT have any other choice. To let American soldiers treat them like dirt in their own country is something no man can stand.
So the outcome is obvious from the start.
The US, British and other allies should have thought about how/when to end the occupation before they start the war in the first place. -
I ask you all a simple question:
If you're a young Iraqi man living in Iraq, would you fight?
Who would you be fighting for? -
British troops on fire flee from APC
The victors - the Mahdi Army
Presidential anguish.......Johnson during Vietnam.....
......you can conquer a land, but can you hold it? -
The people will now be under the religious jihadis.....
Has the US/UK occupation of Iraq helped the people?
Christians in Iraq now have to flee.....
Everyone is now under Islamic law.....
Those who worked with the US/UK will be punished as collaborators....
President Biush is an idiot for attacking Iraq......he should have attack Saudi Arabia actually, since the 9/11 terrorists were all Saudis......not Iraqis... -
Well put. But maybe it is even better to say "you can conquer a land, but can you conquer the will of the people?"Originally posted by Dr Who:[img]
......you can conquer a land, but can you hold it?
The invasion of Iraq on false pretextes was a horrible scandal. But the worse thing was the Americans, didn't know what to do after the "shock & awe" phase. After they have bombed the shxt out of people, they don't know what to do next.
At least Iraq is better than Vietnam because at least the US are robbing Iraq of oil in exchange for its dead US soldiers.
But I am grateful to the US for Vietnam, because if not for them, I may now be typing in Vietnamese and my currency is called a "DONG".
But I just wish the US know better how to install a proper administration after war. -
Someone should put Bush in jail.Originally posted by Dr Who:[img]
President Biush is an idiot for attacking Iraq......he should have attack Saudi Arabia actually, since the 9/11 terrorists were all Saudis......not Iraqis...
But many Americans actually support Bush... so who are we to say anything? -
You 2 should get a room.
-
If you read beyond what the mass media has been putting out, and looking at sources closer to Basra, e.g Iraqi blogs, soldiers' accounts etc.. you might find that Basra was a better example (not perfect) of post-invasion adminstration and handover of power by the Brits, than what the Americans did from 2003-2005.Originally posted by chino65:But I just wish the US know better how to install a proper administration after war.
Only in 2006 did they decide to put boots back on the ground and engage the tribal elders. -
Apparently some people got suckered in by Al Qaeda propaganda.Originally posted by LazerLordz:If you read beyond what the mass media has been putting out, and looking at sources closer to Basra, e.g Iraqi blogs, soldiers' accounts etc.. you might find that Basra was a better example (not perfect) of post-invasion adminstration and handover of power by the Brits, than what the Americans did from 2003-2005.
Only in 2006 did they decide to put boots back on the ground and engage the tribal elders. -
Its lacking of political will to stay on.Originally posted by Dr Who:Today, UK forces will withdraw from the city of Basra....
Methinks it's a defeat.......running away......what say you?
British tank officer burns.....
British jeep petrol-bombed under bridge
Iraqi militiaman taking cover after blasting British convoy
The British won the war, but lost the peace......the people in Basra now will suffer ender the Islamic Al-Qaeda fanatics. Women now must wear veils.
They were much happier under the secular Sadaam Hussein....... -
Africans regularly wipe each other out in the hundreds of thousands and no one seem to be ar.sed about it. (Great! less mouths to feed etc...)Originally posted by Arapahoe:Its lacking of political will to stay on.
But in oil rich Iraq, suddenly everyone's oh so concerned.
...
I don't think it is a lack of political will to pull out of Basra.
It's simply waking up one day realizing that Iraq is bad business. It actually takes a lot of political will to admit having made a mistake, cut losses and pull out. -
Did you know the Operation Iraqi Freedom was initially conceived as Operation Iraqi Liberation?
Haha, I thought that name sounded better.
http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aairaqioil.htm -
ha ha i thought that is why it takes poltical will to stay till the end because it is bad business from the start and people have rejected the cause.Originally posted by chino65:Africans regularly wipe each other out in the hundreds of thousands and no one seem to be ar.sed about it. (Great! less mouths to feed etc...)
But in oil rich Iraq, suddenly everyone's oh so concerned.
...
I don't think it is a lack of political will to pull out of Basra.
It's simply waking up one day realizing that Iraq is bad business. It actually takes a lot of political will to admit having made a mistake, cut losses and pull out. -
The invasion and occupation were ill-conceived from the start. What the Yanks should have done was get big business together and Levi's, McDonald's and Hollywood the buggers to death. Yes, it sounds funny, but think about it.
-
I would say that it's a political defeat rather than a military one.
A military movement i.e, aggression by a free world country(democratic in the real sense) is always vulnerable to result in a 'political defeat' while non-democratic countries(though no country claims to be non-democratic nowadays
) is not suffering from the same weakness. -
for this to be called either a defeat or victory, one has to define those terms precisely. in such a scenario as this involving politics, it's hard to do that.
-
The British had actually focused more on protecting and working with the civillans to get Basra restored to some degree of working order for the past few years, if you follow the British News reports. And contary to American strategy and timeplan, the British had actually planned for an exit within a suitable timeframe all along.
The pictures that you post only depicts the negative and does not do those soldiers there justice.
Now to get down to the other aspects of judging the performance of the British in Basra:
War Fighting Capabilities: A
The Desert Rats had destroyed 19 tanks in a modern tank battle when the British stormed Basra. Basra was the hardest battle when the invasion was launched; the US troops got off relatively easy compared to the Rats.
Policing Capabilities: B
There's only 4500 soldiers in a city of 2 million. Do you expect castles to be built in a day? And they got take care of suicide bombers too. Give the soldiers their due credit.
Capturing Basra Civillans Hearts: C
While initially welcomed, relations soured after a number of incidents, one of which had a soldier court martialled. A BBC poll revealed that 85% thought that their safety had actually detoriated compared to before. 66% were positive that things will improve now that the British had left but 10% would had preferred that the British leaves some presence behind as a safety precaution.
Handling of British Civillans Reactions: C
The British civillan population actually disagreed over Blair's decision to send troops to Iraq. They cited past British policies of Defensive and Protective wars and said that the Blair Government did not abide by that. Some, I would believe were also unhappy that the former Imperial Power could only play second fiddle to the US.
Political fallout: C
To the West and East, not much affects them. To the volatile Middle East and Terrorists, this could be a political victory of sorts for them, as they can churn out propanganda about their victory over "infidels"... (although these details were known to public in the news long ago...)