Can the SAF fight in tunnels?
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rockhound - FIBUA if you are alert enough and you can bring your rifle to bear fast enough there should be no problem, as long as you are covered on 1 side.
Just my experience. Maybe your platoon is not well trained though. made up of new PTEs isit? -
The 1 thing I fear most - a sniper
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sniper's view -
Gaza Arab tunnel
North Korean tunnel under DMZ
Bosnian tunnel from city to airport for civilians -
realistically...casualties in FIBUA will be high....if i go in and help them..something must be really wrong alreadyOriginally posted by chanjyj:rockhound - FIBUA if you are alert enough and you can bring your rifle to bear fast enough there should be no problem, as long as you are covered on 1 side.
Just my experience. Maybe your platoon is not well trained though. made up of new PTEs isit? -
short ninja can go the first and last one. I don't mind the north korean one... at least got breathing spaceOriginally posted by Dr Who:
Gaza Arab tunnel
North Korean tunnel under DMZ
Bosnian tunnel from city to airport for civilians
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about the only thing I really fear in FIBUA would be a grenade come lobbing in and then all hell break lose.Originally posted by Rockhound:realistically...casualties in FIBUA will be high....if i go in and help them..something must be really wrong already
Casualties, yes, expected. But compared to the tunnel, I think FIBUA is chicken feed. Imagining the tunnel already gives me shivers
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Aiya no point lah.
CB. Shout "Room clear!" liao, then I enter room to re-group i also can kanna shot my own teammates. TMD.
Use most explosives like, make it like Stalingrad lo. -
I have often pondered the question of whether the grenade should be round or square.
Don't laugh, I did a lot of FIBUA. My reservist PDF unit practice FIBUA and FOFO and almost nothing else.
Every time you toss a grenade, there is a good chance that it will roll because its round shape is designed to do exactly that. But sometimes, the grenade hits a wall or something and then roll BACK TOWARDS YOU.
Espeically in a small room.
The grenade end up exploding near you instead of near the enemy. Even if you are protected by walls the blast will stun you.
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Here's an embarrassing incident with a training grenade.
The training grenade looks just like a real grenade. It is made of metal and has big holes in the body. Same as SFG87 it has safety clip, safety pin etc. After use the instructor will retrieve the metal body and put in another new blasting fuse. It is louder than a thunderflash.
I tossed the practice grenade around a corner in a comms trench into the bunker. As per SOP, I had my back turned away from the blast direction.
But the grenade had hit something and bounced back and rolled towards me. Since I had my back turned as per SOP I didn't know the thing rolled towards a few inches from my a.ss. Luckily, the instructors on top of the trench saw and yelled for me to scram.
I scammpered away just a milisecond before the grenade exploded. And luckily it was all just a drill.
So should a grenade be round or square? -
Let ask ask ourselves this question...why is it designed to be round in the first place?Originally posted by chino65:I have often pondered the question of whether the grenade should be round or square.
Don't laugh, I did a lot of FIBUA. My reservist PDF unit practice FIBUA and FOFO and almost nothing else.
Every time you toss a grenade, there is a good chance that it will roll because its round shape is designed to do exactly that. But sometimes, the grenade hits a wall or something and then roll BACK TOWARDS YOU.
Espeically in a small room.
The grenade end up exploding near you instead of near the enemy. Even if you are protected by walls the blast will stun you.
...
Here's an embarrassing incident with a training grenade.
The training grenade looks just like a real grenade. It is made of metal and has big holes in the body. Same as SFG87 it has safety clip, safety pin etc. After use the instructor will retrieve the metal body and put in another new blasting fuse. It is louder than a thunderflash.
I tossed the practice grenade around a corner in a comms trench into the bunker. As per SOP, I had my back turned away from the blast direction.
But the grenade had hit something and bounced back and rolled towards me. Since I had my back turned as per SOP I didn't know the thing rolled towards a few inches from my a.ss. Luckily, the instructors on top of the trench saw and yelled for me to scram.
I scammpered away just a milisecond before the grenade exploded. And luckily it was all just a drill.
So should a grenade be round or square?
I am no grenade expert but its logical to assume that the round shape allows the blast to be in all round directions. Secondly, for better grip as opposed to a square one.
That being said, the Germans during WW2 uses stick grenades, very good grip. And personally i think throwing a stick is easier than throwing a ball unless you have baseball training before.
However, a stick grenade also have its problems such as it takes up more space. A point to note is that nobody produces and uses stick grenades anymore, for reasons unknown to me.
Stielhandgranate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_24_grenade -
Let's take stick grenade out of the equation. I had no experience with those so cannot discuss. And they are discountinued for good reasons I am sure.Originally posted by tankee1981:Let ask ask ourselves this question...why is it designed to be round in the first place?
I am no grenade expert but its logical to assume that the round shape allows the blast to be in all round directions. Secondly, for better grip as opposed to a square one.
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IMO, SFGs are designed to be round or egg-shaped to assist rolling (and also for grip).
Maybe square is too much but what I meant is a shape that doesn't encourage rolling. Say for example, octagon or something. A shape that reduces the tendency of the grenade to roll like a ball.
So do you think it is better for a grenade to be able to roll or not? -
Its hard to say...cos i will like to roll my grenade into a room without alerting the occupants with a flying object and a thut sound when it lands.Originally posted by chino65:So do you think it is better for a grenade to be able to roll or not?
But at the same time i won't won't want the grenade to roll back at me when it hit somthing after i threw it into a room.
I guess this all boils down to training, its always good to take a peek into the room before throwing it in just like what BMT taught us to watch where it lands before you duck for cover.
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The first tunnel look like an asshole that has just been fucked by Genghiz khan and his men but I have no problem with that,the other two tunnels are too big and bright for me>Originally posted by chanjyj:short ninja can go the first and last one. I don't mind the north korean one... at least got breathing space -
Which is why I say SAF don't train enough with grenades, and not necessarily live ones. Like the training grenades I used on a few occasions those are good enough.Originally posted by tankee1981:I guess this all boils down to training, its always good to take a peek into the room before throwing it in just like what BMT taught us to watch where it lands before you duck for cover.
Thunderflash is just a waste of time as it does not simulate grenade throwing at all.
Remember that scene in Band of Brothers where the new guy charges into a room after he threw a grenade in? The grenade haven't explode before he charged in.
I can tell you things like this will happen when you are under stress, tired, green etc. -
well chino, in my experience, thinking carefully back, I tend to roll grenades like a bowling ball rather than throw them as you see in movies. So I have not encountered a problem.
If I were to be outside a building and throwing it into an open window, then I think round or square, I am dead if I miss cause it would bounce back anyway. Making it square would not help I believe. The bouncing back comes from the force you use to throw it. -
Well, chanjy, we don't toss or throw grenade like in the movies. There's a very good reason why SAF teach you to throw a grenade instead of "rolling it like a bolling ball".Originally posted by chanjyj:well chino, in my experience, thinking carefully back, I tend to roll grenades like a bowling ball rather than throw them as you see in movies. So I have not encountered a problem.
If I were to be outside a building and throwing it into an open window, then I think round or square, I am dead if I miss cause it would bounce back anyway. Making it square would not help I believe. The bouncing back comes from the force you use to throw it.
The grenade into room situation I am talking about is actually not from a distance. It is when you are standing right beside the window and there's enemy inside the room. I don't see how you can "roll" a grenade through a window. A doorway, maybe. But even then, if the ground is uneven or full of debris, rolling is not a very clever thing to do. -
ok, noted. in your case... oh man.. I can imagine a square grenadeOriginally posted by chino65:Well, chanjy, we don't toss or throw grenade like in the movies. There's a very good reason why SAF teach you to throw a grenade instead of "rolling it like a bolling ball".
The grenade into room situation I am talking about is actually not from a distance. It is when you are standing right beside the window and there's enemy inside the room. I don't see how you can "roll" a grenade through a window. A doorway, maybe. But even then, if the ground is uneven or full of debris, rolling is not a very clever thing to do.
the "toss" I was referring to is more of a lob for a distance, and let the momentum have the the grenade roll with the shape-there is where it starts to look like a bowling ball. Yeah. A doorway or corridor, as you said. -
Originally posted by chanjyj:the "toss" I was referring to is more of a lob for a distance, and let the momentum have the the grenade roll with the shape-there is where it starts to look like a bowling ball. Yeah. A doorway or corridor, as you said.
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Shoot through the window you're gonna throw in also. Some smart people like to staple down the curtains so that the grenades WILL bounce back to you.
I wasn't taught to look at the grenade to see where it lands... damn. I was just told to put an object between ME and the Grenade. If not objects available, get down with feet towards the grenade.
But grenades aren't the best weapons for tunnels lar. Remote vehicles are. =D -
It should be round. The problem with the grenade rolling back is due to a SAF problem. The training areas are simply too clean. The rooms do not have enough debri to simulate real world.Originally posted by chino65:Here's an embarrassing incident with a training grenade.
The training grenade looks just like a real grenade. It is made of metal and has big holes in the body. Same as SFG87 it has safety clip, safety pin etc. After use the instructor will retrieve the metal body and put in another new blasting fuse. It is louder than a thunderflash.
I tossed the practice grenade around a corner in a comms trench into the bunker. As per SOP, I had my back turned away from the blast direction.
But the grenade had hit something and bounced back and rolled towards me. Since I had my back turned as per SOP I didn't know the thing rolled towards a few inches from my a.ss. Luckily, the instructors on top of the trench saw and yelled for me to scram.
I scammpered away just a milisecond before the grenade exploded. And luckily it was all just a drill.
So should a grenade be round or square? -
Wow..., that's a sobering thought!!Originally posted by Shotgun:Shoot through the window you're gonna throw in also. Some smart people like to staple down the curtains so that the grenades WILL bounce back to you.
Never thought of stapling the curtains.
Next time I am holed up in some building under siege i am definitely stapling cloth to all the windows.
But shooting through the curtain may still not tear it up sufficiently to throw a grenade in.
It will be very suicidal to look at where your grenade lands. For example when I threw the grenade into the bunker in the comms trench there were supposed to be people inside shooting at me. That's why you can't even look or aim your throw.
I wasn't taught to look at the grenade to see where it lands... damn. [/b] -
Tunnel Entrance to Gen Percival's underground HQ at Fort Canning.
Now open to public
Above the bunker was a reservoir........ -
double post
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In my earlier post, i was refering to throwing the grenade in the field and not into trenches.Originally posted by chino65:It will be very suicidal to look at where your grenade lands. For example when I threw the grenade into the bunker in the comms trench there were supposed to be people inside shooting at me. That's why you can't even look or aim your throw.
My PC pulled me up when i have taken cover and counting off after throwing the grenade. He told me to look at where it lands then we took cover together. -
Ironic that a Malaysian should preach to us about tunnel warfare, considering that the CTs gave them quite the slip with their arms smuggling across the Thai border in tunnels. So forgive me if I find it hilarious that the great and holy Malaysian army is lecturing us on the topic now.