Employment of phosphorus hand grenade
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Any idea whether this is issued and employed by SAF? Can't recall whether we will be issued with thermite or phosphorus hand grenade during actual operation as part of infantry section commander's weapon load. Pass out from SAFINCO for ages...
Phosphorus hand grenades were widely employed in WWII and in modern conflicts. It seems to be a highly versatile and effective weapon, employed in antipersonnel and other roles.
Anybody used this weapon before? What's the drill and safety precautions to observe? Tactical settings for antipersonnel, smoke-screen, incendiary ...? -
oh ya!! when ar?
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deployment.
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if Mr Phosforus want to be emplyed by SAf ..he must fill in the 415-a in triplicate....please proceed your enquiry to the nearest recruitment centre.....next..
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I think that such weapons are already been phased out as i think they are considered by some to be *chemical weapons and unstable and very dangerous during transport and storage.Originally posted by aikchongtan:Any idea whether this is issued and employed by SAF? Can't recall whether we will be issued with thermite or phosphorus hand grenade during actual operation as part of infantry section commander's weapon load. Pass out from SAFINCO for ages...
Phosphorus hand grenades were widely employed in WWII and in modern conflicts. It seems to be a highly versatile and effective weapon, employed in antipersonnel and other roles.
Anybody used this weapon before? What's the drill and safety precautions to observe? Tactical settings for antipersonnel, smoke-screen, incendiary ...?
I am not sure about the phosphorus grenades but i can say for sure that SM1 used to be armed with WP rounds but not any more. Old ammo tech guys are very relieved by that!
*Reference:White phosphorus weapons are controversial today because of its potential use against civilians, which, for countries who have ratified Protocol III of the Convention Against Certain Conventional Weapons. While the Chemical Weapons Convention does not designate WP as a chemical weapons, various unofficial groups consider it to be one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus -
As a recruit in the early 80s, we were shown a range of dummy hand grenades during grenade lesson.
Among the range of grenades was a WP canister which was identical to a smoke grenade in shape and size. Except the colour was very different but I can't remember the colour.
This was early 80s.
I posted this info before but just about everyone here says this simply cannot be true because they weren't shown one as well.
But just because not everyone has seen one doesn't mean WP don't exist in our arsenal.
No one showed me the Centurion MBT during my entire service. But that doesn't mean they don't exist.
So I leave it for your own judgement. WP aren't banned by any rules as far as I know. It is simply not something you publicise. -
Even during WW2 WP grenades weren't routine issue like the frag. I think they were only brought out as a last resort weapon. Like the flamethrower. It's probably when they think the defence is gonna be stubborn then they'll bring out the WP and flamethrower.Originally posted by aikchongtan:Phosphorus hand grenades were widely employed in WWII and in modern conflicts. It seems to be a highly versatile and effective weapon, employed in antipersonnel and other roles.
I read that thermite grenades were often used in Korea to disable arty pieces to prevent enemy capturing them intact. -
In Korean War, the PLA were fanatical and die by the thousands charging machine gun positions.
But they feared and hated the US WP hand grenades.
An account described them releasing some US POWs with a message to bring back to their friends.
"Any US troop captured with WP grenades, will suffer having the WP grenade stuffed into his trousers, and the grenade ignited."
Basically, the PLA consider WP to be inhuman and was trying to discourage US troops from using them. -
my WO tell me the official use for WP grenade is to destroy sensitive electronic equipment as last resort because the WP "eats" into metal.
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I think such weapons are not widely distributed among SAF troops, bcos if this weapon is deployed without caution, ur own troops may be at the receiving end of the firey fiesta. But ST recently designed the 40mm EBX rds, I wonder did SAF procure sure grenades.
These flame weapons in my impression, is very impt as our threat environment are getting more and more urbanized. The smoke fom thes pyrotechnics can be used to flush out enemies hidden in tunnels and confined areas. -
40mm Enhanced Blast Explosive Round S409
The Enhanced Blast Explosive (EBX) rounds improves lethality and is effective in enclosed spaces such as tunnels, buildings and field fortifications.
http://www.stengg.com/CoyCapPro/detail.aspx?pdid=276 -
Green? I mean like those armour veh interior that kinda green.Originally posted by chino65:As a recruit in the early 80s, we were shown a range of dummy hand grenades during grenade lesson.
Among the range of grenades was a WP canister which was identical to a smoke grenade in shape and size. Except the colour was very different but I can't remember the colour.
This was early 80s.
I posted this info before but just about everyone here says this simply cannot be true because they weren't shown one as well.
But just because not everyone has seen one doesn't mean WP don't exist in our arsenal.
No one showed me the Centurion MBT during my entire service. But that doesn't mean they don't exist.
So I leave it for your own judgement. WP aren't banned by any rules as far as I know. It is simply not something you publicise. -
Olive Green?Originally posted by wonderamazement:Green? I mean like those armour veh interior that kinda green. -
In 2G SAF, phosphorus grenade is part of the op ammo. Can't remember come with how many color, for sure yellow is one of them.Originally posted by equlus84:I think such weapons are not widely distributed among SAF troops, bcos if this weapon is deployed without caution, ur own troops may be at the receiving end of the firey fiesta. But ST recently designed the 40mm EBX rds, I wonder did SAF procure sure grenades.
These flame weapons in my impression, is very impt as our threat environment are getting more and more urbanized. The smoke fom thes pyrotechnics can be used to flush out enemies hidden in tunnels and confined areas. -
Actually not true.Originally posted by equlus84:I think such weapons are not widely distributed among SAF troops, bcos if this weapon is deployed without caution, ur own troops may be at the receiving end of the firey fiesta.
The SFG (Standard Fragmentation Grenade) probably has a wider blast/injury radius than WP. Which makes the SFG more useful, which is why it is the standard issue among troops.
The WP is more of a terror weapon. The phosphrous is like molten lava and burns into flesh upon contact. And pouring water cannot extinguish the burning phosphrous. So victims of WP will be screaming for a very very long time and if they survive the injuries will still be horrific. -
I wonder if the WP was made by (then) CIS?Originally posted by seachfun:In 2G SAF, phosphorus grenade is part of the op ammo. Can't remember come with how many color, for sure yellow is one of them.
It was a theory lesson and the instructors didn't let us examine them up close.
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The Sec IC would be the only one issued with a signal colour smoke canister.
But WP and normal colourless smoke can be distributed to the men.
In the 80's our old-style webbing can hold only 4 SFG. So the canister rounds will have to be hooked via the handle/lever on the "D" ring of the webbing straps. Very easy to lose. Glad they got rid of that useless webbing. The 90's IDF-style webbing was a HUGE improvement. But again, no room for canister grenades. You can put it in the pouch behind but hard to reach.
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I once threw a smoke grenade while preparing to assault uphill. The damn thing hit a branch and rolled back down the hill towards us and our position got smoked-out.
Sad but funny. -
White Phosphorus (WP)
White Phosphorus (WP), known as Willy Pete, is used for signaling, screening, and incendiary purposes. White Phosphorus can be used to destroy the enemy's equipment or to limit his vision. It is used against vehicles, petroleum, oils and lubricants (POL) and ammunition storage areas, and enemy observers. WP can be used as an aid in target location and navigation. It is usually dispersed by explosive munitions. It can be fired with fuze time to obtain an airburst. White phosphorus was used most often during World War II in military formulations for smoke screens, marker shells, incendiaries, hand grenades, smoke markers, colored flares, and tracer bullets.
The Battle of Fallujah was conducted from 8 to 20 November 2004 with the last fire mission on 17 November. The battle was fought by an Army, Marine and Iraqi force of about 15,000 under the I Marine Expeditionary Force (IMEF). US forces found WP to be useful in the Battle of Fallujah. "WP proved to be an effective and versatile munition. We used it for screening missions at two breeches and, later in the fight, as a potent psychological weapon against the insurgents in trench lines and spider holes when we could not get effects on them with HE. We fired “shake and bake” missions at the insurgents, using WP to flush them out and HE to take them out. ... We used improved WP for screening missions when HC smoke would have been more effective and saved our WP for lethal missions."
White phosphorus is not banned by any treaty to which the United States is a signatory. Smokes and obscurants comprise a category of materials that are not used militarily as direct chemical agents. The United States retains its ability to employ incendiaries to hold high-priority military targets at risk in a manner consistent with the principle of proportionality that governs the use of all weapons under existing law. The use of white phosphorus or fuel air explosives are not prohibited or restricted by Protocol II of the Certain Conventional Weapons Convention (CCWC), the Convention on Prohibitions or Restrictions on the Use of Certain Conventional Weapons which may be Deemed to be Excessively Injurious or to have Indiscriminate Effects. -
I'm glad we were "advised" not to throw grenades uphill. =D
M203 up! -
Hand grenade must be employed in careful manner after the environment has been assessed.
In a book that I read about the British SAS training for deployment in Malayan jungle during the Confrontation, a British officer lost one eyes after throwing a frag grenade in a jungle setting. The grenade rebound off branches...lost one eye. Undaunted, he tried the same foolish move again after discharge from hospital. Guess what, lost his remaining eye; blind in both eyes.
Morale of the story, don't anyhow throw grenade. -
M203 grenade round must also be launched with caution when there are overhead canopy. During one live firing in my time, a M203 round launched hit the rifle sling when it exit from the tube. The gunner was showered with curry-powder. Launched a M203 live-round in thick jungle vegetation without care, the round may hit some vegetation in air before it land on intended target. If this mishap take place at 15-20m arming distance, the gunner will be hit.
Similarly, mortar platoon site and face their tubes carefully when there are jungle canopy.
Jungle fighting present it's unique challenges; urban fighting presents it's unique challenges. All conventional and non-conventional fighting presents challenges to the fighting men. -
Wah lao... Lucky its only curry powder....Originally posted by aikchongtan:M203 grenade round must also be launched with caution when there are overhead canopy. During one live firing in my time, a M203 round launched hit the rifle sling when it exit from the tube. The gunner was showered with curry-powder. Launched a M203 live-round in thick jungle vegetation without care, the round may hit some vegetation in air before it land on intended target. If this mishap take place at 15-20m arming distance, the gunner will be hit.
Similarly, mortar platoon site and face their tubes carefully when there are jungle canopy.
Jungle fighting present it's unique challenges; urban fighting presents it's unique challenges. All conventional and non-conventional fighting presents challenges to the fighting men.
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ah ... so the famous case is your batch one ...Originally posted by aikchongtan:M203 grenade round must also be launched with caution when there are overhead canopy. During one live firing in my time, a M203 round launched hit the rifle sling when it exit from the tube. The gunner was showered with curry-powder. Launched a M203 live-round in thick jungle vegetation without care, the round may hit some vegetation in air before it land on intended target. If this mishap take place at 15-20m arming distance, the gunner will be hit.
Similarly, mortar platoon site and face their tubes carefully when there are jungle canopy.
Jungle fighting present it's unique challenges; urban fighting presents it's unique challenges. All conventional and non-conventional fighting presents challenges to the fighting men. -
I think my encounter as a safety NCO is not the first and last time that such careless handling of M203 happened in SAF or any other army. Some lessons have to be learnt the hard and embarrassing way to sink in. So, maybe that why rifle sling was not stipulated to be removed during tactical live firing.
Some soldiers are just a hazard to themselves and others. You know what I meant. (Maybe, we should start a new thread on such soldiers ) But then again, the true quality of a soldier is assessable only under the baptism of real operation with live ammo exchanged with enemy. They may not be switch-on during training but when live, duty, honor and etc are at stake, they may be more enthusiastic and collected than any of us blogging here. Until such time, I reserve my judgement on fellow soldiers. -
SAF don't practice enough with grenades.
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Yes just once in BMT...hardly any practice...Originally posted by Daniel-Lim:SAF don't practice enough with grenades.