Leopard 2A6, how many rounds can it survive?
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Rule no.1, never assume you know everything.
That will help to keep a forum free of unnecessary flames. -
Yea..Originally posted by CM06:My mood was pretty much because of defensetalk.
GfAus is getting pissy lately if you noticed his tone and increasingly longer and no nonsense replies.
Cant help but jump onto that bandwagon -
nvm deleted
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yes sirOriginally posted by LazerLordz:Rule no.1, never assume you know everything.
That will help to keep a forum free of unnecessary flames. -
Originally posted by Shanghai_Grand:In a FIBUA, in Singapore, how many rounds from a squadron of T-90s can it withstand?with no anti tank personnel around the T-90s.
squadron ? i suppose T-90s are tanks
Noting if that countries around us become hostile and amphibious landings have been made, a squadron of Abrams can handle a squadron of T-90s better than a Leo 2 if the SAF were to use it?
Abrams may sink on singapore grounds 1st
Just concerned about the AP rounds of the t-90 and its defence capibilities,
firepower and survivability are characteristics of a tank
In a air attack whereby self propelled howitzers, such as Primus tanks do attack the 2A6 from a far, which type of rounds would they use to inflict damage?
SPH dun fly sia, an estab neu kills everything. HE rounds lor -
British army calls their tank platoons squadrons.
The topic did not specify a scenario, so theres way anyone can answer. APFSDS from 300 meter into the side? I think any tank also die.
I think its safe to say that MBTs generally try to avoid getting hit as well. -
Yep, like a squadron of tanksOriginally posted by Shotgun:British army calls their tank platoons squadrons.
The topic did not specify a scenario, so theres way anyone can answer. APFSDS from 300 meter into the side? I think any tank also die.
I think its safe to say that MBTs generally try to avoid getting hit as well.
Hm.. so conventional arty, with AP or HEAT rounds can disable a tank? or totally destroy it
Is there such thing as well as a Uranium shell for a MBT to fire?
How does a AP round from a bullet work? Does the rifle has to be specially designed for a AP round to fit in?
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Although they are not advanced, yes, they do have people power over us, which could mean even the best modern defences can still be broken if there are enough people and tanksOriginally posted by CM06:There's very few SANE neighbours who wants to attack us and can attack us.
Rifle can pierce tank armour? Sure but the thinner parts that's for sure. Afterall a tank barrel is but a "bigger" rifle.
Primus does not fire mortar. An artillery round landing on most tanks will probably kill it..dont even need to just be the engine.
We have SM1, your grandfather time already have it.
Do you know what's GPS? Would you know if a bird is crapping on your head? -
it is about the deterrence we poseOriginally posted by Shanghai_Grand:Although they are not advanced, yes, they do have people power over us, which could mean even the best modern defences can still be broken if there are enough people and tanks
with a united country with total defence concept
we still can mend a broken defence -
ya conventional arty destroy everything...Originally posted by Shanghai_Grand:Yep, like a squadron of tanks
Hm.. so conventional arty, with AP or HEAT rounds can disable a tank? or totally destroy it
Is there such thing as well as a Uranium shell for a MBT to fire?
How does a AP round from a bullet work? Does the rifle has to be specially designed for a AP round to fit in?
Armor piercing round pierce thru the armor because it is harder ? -
yes sirOriginally posted by Shotgun:British army calls their tank platoons squadrons.
The topic did not specify a scenario, so theres way anyone can answer. APFSDS from 300 meter into the side? I think any tank also die.
I think its safe to say that MBTs generally try to avoid getting hit as well.
best is to hit 1st and avoid getting hit 1st -
The leo 2 I would say match everything the M1 have to offer at least on par or not more. The only thing advantage the M1 have over the Leo2 is M1 is the quietest tank in the world .... !!! But then it also got 1 of the major weakness - its burn gas a lot more then leo2 . The worst nightmare of tankees is have tank but no fuel .Originally posted by Shanghai_Grand:In a air attack whereby self propelled howitzers, such as Primus tanks do attack the 2A6 from a far, which type of rounds would they use to inflict damage?
You are right about the howitzers like Primus tanks .... they nowaday have the ability to attack a tank from a far .... but usually that will still need someone or a UAV to give them a co-ordinate to fire the new anti-tank artillery round to ...... the round when reach the area will activite sensor that detect where the tank is and auto steer itself to it ( the old days they still need someone to aim a laser designator to the tank ) .... the round will impact the tank from the top which is where it is the most thinly armoured. -
I think gary has a picture of our 75mm APFSDS cut out.
Any AP rounds usually have a dense core made of tungsen and other heavy materials.
Sabot rounds are very big and thick needles. Its purpose is to penetrate the armoured exterior of a tank and cause damage to the interior where the soft people, FCS, wires fuel blah blah things are, to destroy it by brute force. (It's more of physics no?) -
I think the info you're looking for can be found from these 2 threads ...Originally posted by Shanghai_Grand:In a FIBUA, in Singapore, how many rounds from a squadron of T-90s can it withstand?with no anti tank personnel around the T-90s.
Noting if that countries around us become hostile and amphibious landings have been made, a squadron of Abrams can handle a squadron of T-90s better than a Leo 2 if the SAF were to use it?
Just concerned about the AP rounds of the t-90 and its defence capibilities,
In a air attack whereby self propelled howitzers, such as Primus tanks do attack the 2A6 from a far, which type of rounds would they use to inflict damage?
Tanknet: Leopard 2 Armour DiscussionAs far as information on the firing tests, I can only give you a short version of the official Greek announcement from the media the last days. This test were conducted late September and involved a single production turret.
Above edited for brevity. Emphasis added in bold are my own.
Greece ordered 171 turrets for it's 170 ordered Leopard-2A6HEL. One of the 171 turrets was to be picked in random, and put to those tests, in order to ensure quality and specifications of the Greek DoD.
During those tests, multiple rounds of 120mm shells, and other ammunition where fired against the specific turret, and in one of those two 120mm shells (unspecified type, and/or conditions of firing) penetrated the turret on the left side near the location of the sights of the gunner.
Caveat - The protection level of a new build 2A6 turret is going to be inherently better than that of an upgraded 2A4->2A6 turret. On top of that, our Leos are vanilla 2A4s and until they have been upgraded, it will be foolish to think it will perform to the level described in the test above.
And a view from the other side of the fence ...
Tanknet: T-72M1 Armour Penetration by Leopard Discussion
Based on past discussions, were a PT-91M and a Leo 2S meet in an engagment in closed terrain, chances are whoever gets the first hit will get the kill.
Both tanks are using modern penetrators. At short ranges, it is quite likely that these penetrators will overmatch the armour packaged of what is essentially an upgraded T72 and a 1980s Leopard 2.
My 2c -
Conventional Arty can disable a tank. But needs to be one heck of a lucky hit unless its carrying anti-armor payloads. That wouldn't be conventional anymore.Originally posted by Shanghai_Grand:Yep, like a squadron of tanks
Hm.. so conventional arty, with AP or HEAT rounds can disable a tank? or totally destroy it
Is there such thing as well as a Uranium shell for a MBT to fire?
How does a AP round from a bullet work? Does the rifle has to be specially designed for a AP round to fit in?
Yes, there are such things as "uranium shells." Most APFSDS rounds are made of dense metals. In SG, ours are made of tungsten, in the US, theirs are made of depleted uranium. Supposedly, DU rounds have better pyrophoric effects. It means if you get hit by those, you're gonna be melted by its super heating effect. On the other hand, a DU round would not work as effectively against a lighter vehicle such as M113 etc.
The only AP rifle I know is the light fifty. Not sure of how that works though. Dense round perhaps? -
Shanghai_Grand ... nothing against you asking questions but can you be a bit more accurate in your usage of terms?Originally posted by Shanghai_Grand:Yep, like a squadron of tanks
Hm.. so conventional arty, with AP or HEAT rounds can disable a tank? or totally destroy it
Is there such thing as well as a Uranium shell for a MBT to fire?
How does a AP round from a bullet work? Does the rifle has to be specially designed for a AP round to fit in? Neutral [/quote]
[quote]Originally posted by Shotgun:
Conventional Arty can disable a tank. But needs to be one heck of a lucky hit unless its carrying anti-armor payloads. That wouldn't be conventional anymore.
Yes, there are such things as "uranium shells." Most APFSDS rounds are made of dense metals. In SG, ours are made of tungsten, in the US, theirs are made of depleted uranium. Supposedly, DU rounds have better pyrophoric effects. It means if you get hit by those, you're gonna be melted by its super heating effect. On the other hand, a DU round would not work as effectively against a lighter vehicle such as M113 etc.
The only AP rifle I know is the light fifty. Not sure of how that works though. Dense round perhaps?
I don't know if it was your original intention to ask about a rifle (as opposed to gun) penetrating armour but leading from that I'm not sure if your question on "AP round from a bullet" refers to small calibre bullets or large calibre rounds ...
Anyhow, you may find the following link useful as a primer on basic munitions ...
Ammunition resource from GlobalSec
In any case, with regards to your original question on "some rifle that can pierce tank armor" ... There are but as some have mentioned, it depends on how you define rifle and how you define tank armour.
If by rifle you mean a man portable rifle, then historically, there have been plenty of so-called "Anti-Tank Rifles", from small calibres such as the German 7.92mm Panzerbüchse to the Finnish 20mm Lahti. These were capable of various levels of penetration but had one common factor ... they were all facing obsolesence by the early years of WW2.
(you can read more about WW2 ATRs from here http://www.antitank.co.uk/)
There is a finite limit to how much armour these man portable rifles can penetrate and that limit was reached pretty much in WW2. Tank armour OTOH has progressed significantly beyond that.
So comes the second part of defining "tank armour". If you're talking about an MBT like a Leo 2, then no way in hell. Unless you want to count in golden BB shots.
OTOH, an AMX-13 is still considered a tank
The armour protections on an unmodified AMX-13 can be penetrated by even 12.7mm SLAP (Saboted Light Armour Piercing) rounds.
Modern 0.50in (12.7mm) sniper rifles are also sometimes called anti-material rifles. They also commonly have AP rounds available for engaging lightly armoured vehicles such as APCs, Armoured trucks, etc.
Hope that helps. -
There are AP rounds in much smaller calibres than that ... AFAIK there is the M995 5.56mm AP round and the M993 7.62mm AP round. Also IINM, the standard 4.7mm round for the P90 is also of an AP design (if not designation).Originally posted by Shotgun:The only AP rifle I know is the light fifty. Not sure of how that works though. Dense round perhaps?
AP rounds for rifle calibres are usually denoted by a black tip on the bullet. They differ from standard ball rounds in that they usually have a steel (or harder material) penetrator embedded in the bullet core instead of a standard lead core.
The 0.50in SLAP round is somewhat different in that it is IINM it is more an APDS (Armour Piercing Discarding Sabot) round than a pure AP round.
+2c -
Hmm probably Malaysia has T-65 tanks or older?
nope their first MBT are the PT91M... -
on the PT91M new gun
quote:
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PT-91M has as you know a slovak modernisation of Rapira gun, 2A46MS (modernized,slovak). It has increased hit accuracy by 23%.
Better guns i can see only german 120mm L44 or L55, swiss one,russian/ukrainian modernisation or chineese (do not know the name, with increased kinetical energy by 30%). However Bumar Labedy is familiar only with slovak one.
So it's too complicated and costly to change the gun. In Poland the programme with 120mm L44 (like in Leopard 2A4) was abandoned.
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Info on the PT91M new round
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what we know however, that a military weapon research guys work over new apfsds projectile. next one. this one would have additional charge around the sabot. The apfsds amunition for t-72 is split in two parts, penetrator with sabot and propellant charge. and that's why the length of the penetrator seems to be limited (some say however that loader would accept longer penetrators anyway) and also the amount of propellant is limited. Malaysia bought new APFSDS and now they working on this next - this time the propellant will be in two parts of the amunition - in normal charge and additively around the sabot. So it could achieve biggest speed and biggest penetration.
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quote:
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The additive propellant charge around the sabot is for speed increase. Normally the amunition for T-72 (in oppose to western tanks amunition that is ine one piece) consist of 2 separate parts: propellant and projectile (sabot and penetrator). Normally propellant in one part burns at the moment of opening fire, and the projectile goes out of the barrel, then sabot breaks apart and lonely penetrator flies to the target. But the amount of propellant is limited due to construction of 2-part amunition. Now they want to add the propelant also around projectile - of course it burns also in the moment of opening fire. Two charges of propellant burn, (normal and around the sabot) and projectile leaves the barrel.
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better penetration than the older round -
Well done well done! Ingenuity! Hope their barrels n turrets stay intact this time.
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nope if PT91m get shot at by leo..you still can see the turret summersault stunt..it just that their ammo were better than the t72Originally posted by Shotgun:Well done well done! Ingenuity! Hope their barrels n turrets stay intact this time. -
Heh, I think Shotgun's referring to the incident where the MAF upgunned their scorpions a bit too ambitiously, resulting in stress failures and cracks.Originally posted by tankfanatic:nope if PT91m get shot at by leo..you still can see the turret summersault stunt..it just that their ammo were better than the t72
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But good point though. With extra propellent charges, I can imagine the extra "fling" the turret will have in the event of a catastrophic failure. Something which T-72 series are quite known for too!Originally posted by kotay:Heh, I think Shotgun's referring to the incident where the MAF upgunned their scorpions a bit too ambitiously, resulting in stress failures and cracks. -
Use .50 cal m85 with explosive tipped rounds.. confirm cause the armour on tanks to split...
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I think u too imaginative... 0.5 confirm can't penetrate most modern tanks.
u neeed at least 25mm... 25mm AP is possible...