MAF abandon Steyr after 15-year service
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Desert indeed make it worst, but the gas blowback system actually blow hot gases with carbon residue directly into bolt area, whereas gas piston system dun.Originally posted by tankfanatic:ironicaly.. because the complain on M4 turn its volume during the Afganistan and Iraqi campaign..a study have been done to find out the reason.
the very fine particulates were unique to desert theater of operation and should not be use to justify that the M4 is a jam prone weapon.
Becos of the that, there will be more and more carbon residue build up in gas blowback system as more rds are fired, this build up will cause jams.
The hot gases also heat up the bolt area which will dry up the lubricant faster than in a gas piston system, due to that , there will be more wear and tear.
Check out the flash vids abt HK416 and M4 that I have posted earliar and see how the gas flow. -
Dude ... I was asking for substantiation on the use of M4 in USMC units ... not Army.Originally posted by tankfanatic:"The M4 Carbine is the Army's primary individual combat rifle for Infantry, Ranger, and Special Operations forces. Since its introduction in 1991, the M4 carbine has proven its worth on the battlefield because it is accurate, easy to shoot and maintain. The M4's collapsible stock and shortened barrel make it ideal for Soldiers operating in vehicles or within the confines associated with urban terrain. The M4 has been improved numerous times and employs the most current technology available on any rifle/carbine in general use today.
The M4 is the highest-rated weapon by Soldiers in combat, according to the Directorate of Combat Development, Ft. Benning, Ga. In December 2006, the Center for Naval Analysis conducted a "Soldiers' Perspective on Small Arms in Combat" survey. Their poll of over 2,600 Soldiers reported overwhelming satisfaction with the M4. The survey included serviceability and usefulness in completing assigned missions in Iraq and Afghanistan.";
but thanks anyway ...
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sorry..lolOriginally posted by kotay:Dude ... I was asking for substantiation on the use of M4 in USMC units ... not Army.
but thanks anyway ... -
good reading on canada standard infantry rifle requirement
http://nightoperations.com/Doc/Infantry-Rifle-Carbine1.pdf -
i guess USMC only want M4 to replace M16 in vehicle crews, airborne assault units and combat engineer elements units.Originally posted by kotay:Dude ... I was asking for substantiation on the use of M4 in USMC units ... not Army.
but thanks anyway ...as of this writing, the M4 MWS was being field tested by the United States Marine Corps and seen as a heavy-hitting replacement for select M9 9mm pistols currently in service. The thinking is that the M4 MWS would also replace the M16A4 in some cases, being fielded as a smaller, yet more potent alternative to either weapon in service, particularly for vehicle crews, airborne assault units and combat engineer elements.
http://www.militaryfactory.com/smallarms/detail.asp?smallarms_id=186 -
as for the rangers....
Basis of Issue Plan - BOIP
does Rangers considered as SF?
A. DESCRIPTION: THE M4A1 IS A COMPACT LIGHTWEIGHT WEAPON THAT IS
A MODIFIED M4 CARBINE. THE M4A1 (SOF VARIANT) CARBINE DIFFERS
FROM THE BASIC M4 IN THE FOLLOWING FEATURES; FULL AUTOMATIC FIRING
MODE, A FLAT TOP RAIL FOR MOUNTING DAY/NIGHT SIGHTS AND A DETACHABLE
CARRYING HANDLE.
B. CAPABILITIES: THE M4A1 FIRES THE SAME AMMUNITION AS THE
M16A2 AND THE M4 CARBINE. IT ALSO MOUNTS ALL ACCESSORIES COMMON TO
THE M16A2 AND M4 TO INCLUDE THE 40MM GRENADE LAUNCHER. SOF UNITS
WILL HAVE THE ABILITY TO ADAPT ONE VERSATILE WEAPON TO MEET SEVERAL
MISSION NEEDS RATHER THAN HAVING MANY DIFFERENT WEAPONS THAT ARE
CURRENTLY EMPLOYED.
C. EMPLOYMENT: THE M4A1 WILL BE USED BY THE SPECIAL FORCES
GROUPS, RANGERS AND SOF AVIATION UNITS.
D. BASIS OF ISSUE:
A. THE M4A1 WILL REPLACE THE M4 CARBINE AND M16A2 RIFLES IN THE RANGER REGIMENT AND SPECIAL FORCES GROUPS.
B. THE M4A1 WILL REPLACE THE M4 CARBINES FOR THE FLIGHT
CREWMEMBERS IN THE SOF AVIATION UNITS.
E. POWER REQUIREMENTS: NONE.
F. TRANSPORTATION REQUIREMENTS: NONE.
G. PERSONNEL/MAINTENANCE IMPACTS:
(1) OPERATOR:
(A) MOS/CREW SIZE: ONE GPU OPERATOR
(B) TRAINING REQUIREMENTS: FIELDING OF THE M4A1 WILL
REQUIRE ALL USERS TO TRAIN ON THE WEAPON.
(2) MAINTAINERS: UL: 92Y, DS/GS: 45B
H. SPECIAL NOTES: ITEM IS APPROPRIATE FOR INCLUSION IN AR 71-13. -
Becos of the that, there will be more and more carbon residue build up in gas blowback system as more rds are fired, this build up will cause jams
after how many rounds? 600? -
Originally posted by kotay:
Actually, the world is moving toward more and more bullpup, shorter weapon and still maintain the 20" barrel.
The above quote is from US Army Press Release dated Mar 2007
Just because [b]WE haven't heard it doesn't mean the world doesn't continue to evolve past our limited horizons.[/b]
More and more armies are adopting bullpup now, some of new or to be users are Thailand, Skorea,Croatia, China , Israel, SG , Iran, Georgia etc as standard AR.
Also and even SF units are also adopting bullpup AR as well.
Even our own SAR-21 has been sold to Bangladesh, Indonesia,Morocco etc. -
Well the rangers consider themselves SF. Heh
I'd say they are more like elite airborne/heliborne infantry. Their fighting tactics are still conventional. Just more precise, and fluid.
So the malaysians selected the M4 or the M4A1? Someone clear up once and for all? -
Since the 75th Ranger regiment is subordinated to the US Army Special Operations Command HQ, I'd say that will indicate that they are SF designated.Originally posted by Shotgun:Well the rangers consider themselves SF. Heh
I'd say they are more like elite airborne/heliborne infantry. Their fighting tactics are still conventional. Just more precise, and fluid.
In reality their mission is as you described, in the twilight zone between elite infantry and entry level SOF. However, they are, I stress again, designated as SF within the US Army Orbat.
Also, let's not confuse the Rangers in the 75th RR (who are SOF) with the Ranger Course Graduates in the regular Army (who are not SOF). -
And this is an answer to my post on the M4 being the adopted standard AR in the US Army ... ?Originally posted by gary1910:Actually, the world is moving toward more and more bullpup, shorter weapon and still maintain the 20" barrel.
More and more armies are adopting bullpup now, some of new or to be users are Thailand, Skorea,Croatia, China , Israel, SG , Iran, Georgia etc as standard AR.
Also and even SF units are also adopting bullpup AR as well.
Even our own SAR-21 has been sold to Bangladesh, Indonesia,Morocco etc. -
No worries ... what you've said up there is very much in line with what I understand, anecdotally, to be the case for the USMC.Originally posted by tankfanatic:sorry..lol
i guess USMC only want M4 to replace M16 in vehicle crews, airborne assault units and combat engineer elements units.
I was just curious about Chino's assertion that the M4 has replaced the M16A4 in the USMC as well.
On a side note, it is interesting that the positions are reversed between the US Army and USMC.
US Army (Inf) M4, (CSS) M16A2
USMC (Inf) M16A4, (CSS) M4
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So the malaysians selected the M4 or the M4A1? Someone clear up once and for all?
M4A1. -
the dude above is the MAF Army Chief
Colt M4A1 carbine with Red Dot System with Off Axis Viewing Device
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=108150&page=29 -
I do agree the M4A1 is easier to handle as a corner shot system though. Can't imagine a corner shot device mounted on an M-16. And the one on the SAR-21 makes it even heavier than ever.
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That is a good qn becos I doubt anyone here ever fired 100 or more rds in one go before.Originally posted by tankfanatic:after how many rounds? 600?
Becos we ususally fired less than 30 rds in one go , and there is bound to have someone in the range to have jamming in their M16 during that one go.
And I do know that ususallly the older the M16 training weapon,the more jams there will be.
Especially those in schools, those M16 are very prone to jamming, you are lucky if there is no jam at all during the entire range practices eventhough you only fire a small number of rds in each practice.
So it seem that another reason for M16 jamming is wear and tear, not just carbon build up.
Since it is reported that M16 due to gas blowback , will cause higher rate of lubricant dry up which then induce higher rate of wear and tear.
Maybe LL could put up more light in this.
Anyway there is info from the link I provided:A third way of gaming the testing system involves the level of lubrication used. One source noted that the first dust test new M4s had 9,836 jams in 60,000 rounds – almost one jam every 6 rounds. The Army kept working on the test until they figured out a "generous lubrication" approach that used far more than the manufacturer recommended, but lowered jams to 1 in 88 rounds.
Even at 1 jam in 88 rds, it mean that every contact, there will be at least 1 jam or more.
Anyway, I do hope that they will be releasing results of all those tests. -
im intrigue ..because...how often do soldier need to clean and zeroing their weapon in field?
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That "Army Chief" needs to be educated on the concept of trigger discipline.Originally posted by tankfanatic:
the dude above is the MAF Army Chief
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If you look carefully, the Chief's finger isn't on the trigger. But probably with his index fingertip touching the bottom of the trigger guard.
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Hmmm... upon closer inspection, you're right. However, it would probably make those around him more comfortable if his trigger finger were pointing straight ahead.Originally posted by Shotgun:If you look carefully, the Chief's finger isn't on the trigger. But probably with his index fingertip touching the bottom of the trigger guard.
On a somewhat unrelated note, ArmaLite is having a Thanksgiving Weekend web-only sale, with some crazy prices on a variety of complete AR-15 upper assemblies and accessories:
ArmaLite web-only sale
Do you think they'll ship overseas to Singapore?
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You willing to pay for my bail?
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1 in 88 rounds
thats bad...i wonder why MAF doesnt complain all these year...look at their CAR15A1...all worn out from use.
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IINM, most of these school range jams are (more) attributable to faulty magazines rather than weaponsOriginally posted by gary1910:Especially those in schools, those M16 are very prone to jamming, you are lucky if there is no jam at all during the entire range practices eventhough you only fire a small number of rds in each practice. . -
He said standard issue. He didn't say "replace".Originally posted by kotay:No worries ... what you've said up there is very much in line with what I understand, anecdotally, to be the case for the USMC.
I was just curious about Chino's assertion that the M4 has replaced the M16A4 in the USMC as well.
On a side note, it is interesting that the positions are reversed between the US Army and USMC.
US Army (Inf) M4, (CSS) M16A2
USMC (Inf) M16A4, (CSS) M4
Just like in SAF the SAR-21 and the M16/M203 are BOTH standard issue to SAF infantry sections. Not that one replaces the other.
The M16 and M4 are basically the same thing with only a length difference. It's hard to draw a clear line. Since all troops operating in Iraq and Afghan are mounted, troops issued with M16 may decide to draw a M4 from the armoury for certain missions or becos the vehicle is cramped etc. Or the grenadier may choose the M4/M203 cos it's lighter, while his section mates stick to full length M16.
They're at war, not on parade. So uniformity is less crucial. And as stated, more and more choose the M4 over the M16 given the choice. -
Again, nobody is saying the HK416 isn't better than the M4. DUHHHH?Originally posted by gary1910:Desert indeed make it worst, but the gas blowback system actually blow hot gases with carbon residue directly into bolt area, whereas gas piston system dun.
Becos of the that, there will be more and more carbon residue build up in gas blowback system as more rds are fired, this build up will cause jams.
The hot gases also heat up the bolt area which will dry up the lubricant faster than in a gas piston system, due to that , there will be more wear and tear.
Check out the flash vids abt HK416 and M4 that I have posted earliar and see how the gas flow.
Don't need to lecture on the gas system.
Most of the jams in Iraq and Afghanistan are attributed to the sand, so stop lecturing about the gas system.
A lot of the guns jammed on people fresh out of the base.
How can I make you understand this?
The jams are blamed on sand, using the wrong lubricant which became sticky goo with the sand. And bad magazines.
Someone has posted a list stating this with the conclusion that 89% of the troops reported confidence in the M4! SAS of 3 countries love the M4.
Only Gary is the squeaking wheel.