MAF abandon Steyr after 15-year service
-
Not to ruffle any feathers but many trained men in my infantry company couldn't hit the 300m target with regular M16. So maybe it is the shooter and not the rifle?Originally posted by specialOps:What makes you think our carbines are not zeroed?
Are you saying that 100+ trained and experienced soldiers who zeroed their rifles before the shoot, and can hardly hit anything at 300m is a coincidence or because they didn't zero?
You don't know what you're talking about dude.
As mentioned, DaveC had no problem with the M4's accuracy. I believe Dave. -
Have to disagree.Originally posted by gary1910:So tell me, how could it be the best choice for MAF when M4 is chosen w/o a proper selection and evaluation process???
And it seem to be more an emotional and political decision rather than objective and rational decision taken by MY.
2ndly, lot of armies already started to replace the M-16 and it's variant, Thailand is the latest, they ordered a large qty of Tavor-21.
Afterall, there are a lot of better AR than M-16 available now, chosing M4 is in fact going backward.
MAF already uses the M16A1, Choosing the M4 to supplement their existing stock of M16 is the most rational decision ever made by MY.
If they pick the Tavor, or G36 etc, they would add another logistic mess to their arsenal. And none of these weapons are so overpoweringly good as to justify doing this. -
Third guy from the front - is he not carrying a Steyr ?Originally posted by tankfanatic:
M16 -
It could be the shooter, it could be the rifle.... and then it could also be the ammunition.Originally posted by Daniel-Lim:Not to ruffle any feathers but many trained men in my infantry company couldn't hit the 300m target with regular M16. So maybe it is the shooter and not the rifle?
Mass-produced ammo for military use might not always be subjected to the same level of quality control as ammo intended for the civilian market. There may be enough variations in powder charge, projectile shape and weight, neck tension and cartridge overall length to adversely affect long-range accuracy.
I have come across milsurp ammo with minor but visible variations in cartridge length at our club's AR shoots. Such ammo is great for general blasting, and might even be reasonably accurate out to 100 yards, but beyond that, their accuracy falls off considerably. -
Originally posted by Daniel-Lim:
What is the current doctrine in zeroing the rifle to the shooter ?
Not to ruffle any feathers but many trained men in my infantry company couldn't hit the 300m target with regular M16. So maybe it is the shooter and not the rifle?
As mentioned, DaveC had no problem with the M4's accuracy. I believe Dave.
Back in the early 70s, the shooter was taught to cover the black target with the foresight, lower the gun barrel till a small space show up between the top of the foresight to the bottom of the black target, then pull the trigger.
This must be stupid, as the arm of the shooter will have to be rock steady so as not to create different space between the top of the foresight to the bottom of the black target.
During the 80s, the shooter was taught to aim at the black target, with the top of the foresight at the middle spot of the target.
This one seems to make more sense, but one has to remember the same approximate middle spot at 100m.
Used the same approach during a side trip to the Cu Chi tunnels in south Vietnam, I tried firing the AK-47 at different targets located between 100m to 300m.
Without the gun sight zeroed to my eye, I missed the first three shots - each shot cost US$1.00 a piece for some very old ammo with plenty of duds replaced at no extra cost.
Making compensation to my aim by shooting low, I managed to hit the 100m target by ricochetting the round off the ground to the target; and seeing the dust burst, I compensated again to get better direct hits at the 100m targets.
Only one target at 300m was hit and probably by a ricochet round.
The gun cannot think, the shooter can and need to adjust to the environment. -
The pic ... Territorial Army they only recieve surplus equipmentOriginally posted by Atobe:Third guy from the front - is he not carrying a Steyr ? -
About zeroing the M16...
Are we zeroing the weapon itself, or are we zeroing the shooter to the weapon?
We were told that a weapon zeroed by Soldier A will not fit Soldier B.
Is this correct?
And then the SAR-21 is suppose to need no zeroing. It is factory-zeroed.
...
This theory about zeroing has always puzzled me. And as usual, the instructors can't give any useful answers cos they are just trained like robots and never ask questions so they can't answer questions. -
Yes, he's the runner with the radio. I can understand why he picked a shorter weapon.Originally posted by Atobe:Third guy from the front - is he not carrying a Steyr ?
As the radioman I did find I needed a shorter weapon.
I carry my weapon one-handed as my left hand is always holding the radio handset.
...
In the picture the 2nd last guy has a now-extinct 7.62 magazine-fed SAW made by H&K. Someone has posted a clear picture of a TA meenah with this weapon before. -
referring to the TA pic.
that's a very stoopid indian file. one burst of a SAW, u'd get two for the price of one. its supposed to be a military exercise. the least they could do was act the part. -
Sar 21 still need to zero..1 time....LAD zero 1 time tooOriginally posted by chino65:About zeroing the M16...
Are we zeroing the weapon itself, or are we zeroing the shooter to the weapon?
We were told that a weapon zeroed by Soldier A will not fit Soldier B.
Is this correct?
And then the SAR-21 is suppose to need no zeroing. It is factory-zeroed.
...
This theory about zeroing has always puzzled me. And as usual, the instructors can't give any useful answers cos they are just trained like robots and never ask questions so they can't answer questions.
zeroing is zeroing the weapon to the shooter...not zeroing the shooter to the weapon..
if we do the latter..means need surgery already -
HK21?Originally posted by chino65:Yes, he's the runner with the radio. I can understand why he picked a shorter weapon.
As the radioman I did find I needed a shorter weapon.
I carry my weapon one-handed as my left hand is always holding the radio handset.
...
In the picture the 2nd last guy has a now-extinct 7.62 magazine-fed SAW made by H&K. Someone has posted a clear picture of a TA meenah with this weapon before. -
If crossing a river, the SOP as I remember is to have 1 or 2 men cross first, and after all clear, the rest of the section or platoon or company crosses.Originally posted by ferryman2393:referring to the TA pic.
that's a very stoopid indian file. one burst of a SAW, u'd get two for the price of one. its supposed to be a military exercise. the least they could do was act the part.
We move like that in SAF, too. One picture doesn't tell the whole story. The MAF are supposed to be quite capable jungle fighters, so they should know la...
And after all this is just their TA (part timers) not SOF. -
HK21 is belt-fed and is slightly more successful than the mag-fed version MAF is using. These are out of production, you won't find it on the H&K website even. I found the model once before, but now I forget.Originally posted by SpecOps87:HK21?
EDIT: Here's the pic, the magazine is not there but you can see there's no provision for belt-feed, so it is not a HK21.
can anyone ID this weapon?
-
Yes, you are right, that's what I meant - zeroing the rifle to the individual.Originally posted by Rockhound:Sar 21 still need to zero..1 time....LAD zero 1 time too
zeroing is zeroing the weapon to the shooter...not zeroing the shooter to the weapon..
if we do the latter..means need surgery already
So it is correct to say that if I pick up someone else's weapon, I won't be able to shoot as accurately, true? -
got it, it is the HK11. Basically a G3 with a heavy barrel.
http://www.eas.gr/index.php?lang=en&sec=7&cid=116
-
Yah, u won't be able to hit tt accurately. But for relatively short ranges of 100 or so, it should still be okay cuz the deviation can't be that much, unless the original user is some cocked-eyed fella den tt one bobian, lol.Originally posted by chino65:Yes, you are right, that's what I meant - zeroing the rifle to the individual.
So it is correct to say that if I pick up someone else's weapon, I won't be able to shoot as accurately, true?
**Ps. is the SAR21 "factory-zeroed" to a set range of say 200m/300m? or what? because from what I understand, the closer you are to the target, the higher the bullet hit, and the further, the lower the hit. So if its set at a certain range of zero, doesn't the shooter have to like aim off etc.?** -
unless the area were fully securedOriginally posted by Daniel-Lim:If crossing a river, the SOP as I remember is to have 1 or 2 men cross first, and after all clear, the rest of the section or platoon or company crosses.
We move like that in SAF, too. One picture doesn't tell the whole story. The MAF are supposed to be quite capable jungle fighters, so they should know la...
And after all this is just their TA (part timers) not SOF. -
The SAR-21's scope comes outta the factory zeroed for 400m. and the laser for i think 50m or something...can't remember.
Usually go range do minor zeroing, and also for those funny people who don't centre their eye to the scope.
You actually got to know how to properly use the scope, cause the image circle is floating, you got to centre it, you can't just put it to your eye and fire away at where the cross is....you'll miss it.
Some people who dunno how to centre the scope, even after "zeroing" still miss. -
True, it's not anstant hit just becos there's a scope. Everything need correct training.Originally posted by specialOps:The SAR-21's scope comes outta the factory zeroed for 400m. and the laser for i think 50m or something...can't remember.
Usually go range do minor zeroing, and also for those funny people who don't centre their eye to the scope.
You actually got to know how to properly use the scope, cause the image circle is floating, you got to centre it, you can't just put it to your eye and fire away at where the cross is....you'll miss it.
Some people who dunno how to centre the scope, even after "zeroing" still miss.
During my time when I pick up the sharpshooter's scoped M16, I couldn't even FIND the target - which in all fairness was a fast moving one. It was a girl water-skiiing in bikini more than 300m from where we were deployed in Selectar Island. Took several seconds of pointing here and there before I found the target. And then I was not used to the sight picture. A lot of black space surround the small circular sight picture. -
Wrong , M-16 was selected some 30+ years ago than abt 15 years ago, MAF selected the Steyr AUG to replace the M-16A1 in the regular army and the old M-16A1 is relegated to part timer TA.Originally posted by Daniel-Lim:Have to disagree.
MAF already uses the M16A1, Choosing the M4 to supplement their existing stock of M16 is the most rational decision ever made by MY.
If they pick the Tavor, or G36 etc, they would add another logistic mess to their arsenal. And none of these weapons are so overpoweringly good as to justify doing this.
So Steyr AUG design must be better than the M-16A1 since it was selected to replace M-16A1, at least logically, but for the case of MY , you will never know!!!
So is it logical in the first place for MAF to dump the old design M-16 and then later go back to it again?
Anyway, your stated that becos MAF has used the M-16A1 before and due to logistically reason, therefore it is rational to continue to use old design but upgraded M4!!!
That statement will be logical if they progress from M-16A1 to M-16A2 but they did not, and 2ndly that is only evolutionary , not revolutionary.
Therefore, to be revolutionary, you can't continue to use an old design as newer AR come online, one must evaluate all that are available to make the most cost-effective and rational decision, that process could take years, just look at the US for the M-16 replacement (and yes US is also looking to replace their M-16 too) and SAF becos you are talking abt re-equiping the entire armed forces for at least 2 decades.
Therefore, one cannot be just select the old design just becos of logistical reason, if there are better design AR is available and within budget, then that will be the rational choice. -
they have been testing XM 8 too..but its obvious they didnt want it.
-
extreme left soldier M4?
this one on the left M4 too? that guy doesnt look like a radio man
-
this is in the 80's when they were fighting thr communist..what kind of rifle is that?
-
if you ask me..too many different type of weapon
-
That is becos SAF method of putting a scope on the M-16 is not a good design.Originally posted by chino65:True, it's not anstant hit just becos there's a scope. Everything need correct training.
During my time when I pick up the sharpshooter's scoped M16, I couldn't even FIND the target - which in all fairness was a fast moving one. It was a girl water-skiiing in bikini more than 300m from where we were deployed in Selectar Island. Took several seconds of pointing here and there before I found the target. And then I was not used to the sight picture. A lot of black space surround the small circular sight picture.
Let me explain, when you put your cheek against the butt of the M-16, you will find that most of the time you could see the the front sight tip and the rear aperture is more or less align to your master eye, at most just alittle adjustment
Why?
That is becos the height of the sight is more or less the average cheek to eye distance for an average person.
For our M-16 with a scope, the scope is higher due to it is mounted on top of the carrier handle, forcing you to readjust your position to the higher scope( abt an inch).
2ndly, a lot of black space was due to your eye is too far away from the scope.
All these problem is due to the scope height is not at the optimum height causing you to do a lot of adjustment.
That is why other armies are using P-rail to mount their scope so to have optimum height and distance so that when you take aim , you dun need much adjustment.
Our SAR-21 dun have such problem as it is already in the optimum height and distance, when put your cheek on the butt, you will find that you dun need to do much adjustment to align the weapon to the target.