MAF abandon Steyr after 15-year service
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M4 will not do as far due to the short barrel ! effective range of the M4 using 1:7 twist COlt mfr barrel on a 62 grain M855 have probably effective range up to 150 meter ! not more! due to the slow velocity of the shorter barrel.
The key of the 5.56 is the thumbling effect and with the short barrel at that range it just could not do the damage as with a 20".. unless we go with a heavier bullet like the 77 grain.
DOn;t get me wrong ! you bring an M4 to the range and I could easily hit target @ 600 yds with ACOG or ELcan scope! but the effectiveness of the hit is questionable.
Here is my setup on my M4! dings a target all day at 400 yds! and do very well at 600.. but at that range using 5.56 , I will defeintly go with the 20" or longer barrel. My M4 U see is a 16" M4 barrel with Canadian Elcan scope.
DaveC
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I agree with Dave on the primary "wounding" effects of the 5.56. The round needs to be travel at higher velocity such that the sudden transition from air to flesh would cause the material strength to give way and fragment inside the body. That is the primary wounding effect. The M4 would probably not deliver that.
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Great news for any potential adversary to the MAF.
Singapore's 'liquid armor' will have less problem in withstanding the impact of a 5.56 round fired from this Malaysian manufactured M4 carbine. -
Originally posted by Atobe:
Care to elaborate?
Great news for any potential adversary to the MAF.
Singapore's [b]'liquid armor' will have less problem in withstanding the impact of a 5.56 round fired from this Malaysian manufactured M4 carbine.
[/b]
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Originally posted by Atobe:
yupz.. just equipped a 3x scope for every sar21 and abuse the range advantage. Our soldier's survivability will definately increase. We can prone, stand, squat at ease at 600m picking them off while they rush towards us and exhaust themselves in the process. Our technology has equalled the MAF numerical advantage, this range advantage is gonna allow our soldiers enough time to play with thier PDAs to call for indirect support or play command and conquer with it.
Great news for any potential adversary to the MAF.
Singapore's [b]'liquid armor' will have less problem in withstanding the impact of a 5.56 round fired from this Malaysian manufactured M4 carbine.
[/b] -
may u get shot and die one day due to ure naivityOriginally posted by cloud210:yupz.. just equipped a 3x scope for every sar21 and abuse the range advantage. Our soldier's survivability will definately increase. We can prone, stand, squat at ease at 600m picking them off while they rush towards us and exhaust themselves in the process. Our technology has equalled the MAF numerical advantage, this range advantage is gonna allow our soldiers enough time to play with thier PDAs to call for indirect support or play command and conquer with it.
never bilateral exercise b4 rite?
better yet..
never donned green yet havent u? -
Lac la... Let them have their imagination.Originally posted by Rockhound:may u get shot and die one day due to ure naivity
never bilateral exercise b4 rite?
better yet..
never donned green yet havent u?
I've yet to see a 600m clear line of sight for such "pickings." -
maybe u guys can enlighten me?
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Lol...you think 28 Days Later ah? Zombie charge at u from across an open field and you can relac take your time to abuse the range advantage ah/Originally posted by cloud210:yupz.. just equipped a 3x scope for every sar21 and abuse the range advantage. Our soldier's survivability will definately increase. We can prone, stand, squat at ease at 600m picking them off while they rush towards us and exhaust themselves in the process. Our technology has equalled the MAF numerical advantage, this range advantage is gonna allow our soldiers enough time to play with thier PDAs to call for indirect support or play command and conquer with it. -
Pretty elementary really... In war, things dun happen one thing at a time so that u can:Originally posted by cloud210:maybe u guys can enlighten me?
(a) get comfy
(b) retrieve your PDA
(c) pair it with your GPS
(d) download images from your UAV
(e) analyse the images and identify the enemy's location
(f) call indirect fire
Usually, it will be something like:
(a) get comfy
- get shot by sniper/step on mine/enemy arty/rain/other shit happens
(b) retrieve your PDA
- dirty, dusty, muddy field environment farks up the screen, sand gets into the sides... your stylus gets stuck / broken... battery is flat, need to change battery
- get shot by sniper/step on mine/enemy arty/rain/other shit happens
(c) pair it with GPS
- cloudy day/overcast sky/thick forest canopy/broken antenna/simply no fix!!!
- get shot by sniper/step on mine/enemy arty/rain/other shit happens
(d) download images from your UAV
- no fix/can't DL/blurry, inconclusive images/UAV shot down
- get shot by sniper/step on mine/enemy arty/rain/other shit happens
(e) analyse the images and identify the enemy's location
- U siao ah? getting shot at left right center, cold wet and miserable in the rain and mud, still got time to look at blurry, inconclusive images???
- get shot by sniper/step on mine/enemy arty/rain/other shit happens
(f) call indirect fire
- radio down/arty busy/tell u to wait/etc etc etc...
meantime, - get shot by sniper/step on mine/enemy arty/rain/other shit happens
U get the idea?
Its not like playing C & C... in real life, things happen concurrently, nasty things ... and u usually cannot react as fast as u'ld like...
Having technological capabilities is well and good... but its much better to have a clear mission and people with common sense to do it. -
give the small boy a break lah .....
personally, I blame computer games and the army commercials ....
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ya loOriginally posted by Fatum:give the small boy a break lah .....
personally, I blame computer games and the army commercials .... 
Sorry for the over exaggerating of the relaxing and playing cnc part.
I know real life war, shit happens every now and then, I'm trying to say, MAF equipping M4 to their general usage, we get range advantage, as in we get the first kills. Even if our soldiers get hit by a stray shot, it won't be that lethal unless its near. Because of that range, it allows us to have additional time say, 5-15s to get into defensive position or even react and access the situation before they become lethal.
Anyway, I also doubt the quality of the M4 they produce. Its not about their capability, it's about their mentality when manufacturing things. While the the typical china chinese may want to extort every single cent out of a product whether it is harmful anot, the typical malays in malaysia have the happy go lucky relac relac lifestyle. Tomorrow world end they also won't care. -
i tot 5.56mm rounds don't mean to kill. basically their job is to incapicitate the enemies, thus bringing down the overall efficiency of the squad.
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Really, you want to try, just 1 round will doOriginally posted by newcomer:i tot 5.56mm rounds don't mean to kill. basically their job is to incapicitate the enemies, thus bringing down the overall efficiency of the squad. -
Originally posted by justcooler:Really, you want to try, just 1 round will do -
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never ever underestimate your enemy and their will to fight...Originally posted by cloud210:ya lo
Sorry for the over exaggerating of the relaxing and playing cnc part.
I know real life war, shit happens every now and then, I'm trying to say, MAF equipping M4 to their general usage, we get range advantage, as in we get the first kills. Even if our soldiers get hit by a stray shot, it won't be that lethal unless its near. Because of that range, it allows us to have additional time say, 5-15s to get into defensive position or even react and access the situation before they become lethal.
Anyway, I also doubt the quality of the M4 they produce. Its not about their capability, it's about their mentality when manufacturing things. While the the typical china chinese may want to extort every single cent out of a product whether it is harmful anot, the typical malays in malaysia have the happy go lucky relac relac lifestyle. Tomorrow world end they also won't care. -
okok sorrieOriginally posted by Rockhound:never ever underestimate your enemy and their will to fight... -
Originally posted by cloud210:
A "typical" Malay in MAF will cut your throat before you can utter another stupid racist remark.
... the the typical [b]china chinese may want to extort every single cent out of a product whether it is harmful anot, the typical malays in malaysia have the happy go lucky relac relac lifestyle. Tomorrow world end they also won't care.[/b]
You have not served in the military, you have no right to belittle anyone. How do you know you won't break down and cry like a baby after just 1 week of BMT in our comfy army? -
boys...war is dangerous...its good to have technological advantages...but nature and chaos always have way to destroy that advantages...
murphy law of combat..(i got this from a malaysian soldier blog)
-If it's stupid but works, it's not stupid.
-Don't look conspicuous, it draws fire.
-When in doubt, empty your magazine.
-Never share a foxhole with anyone braver than you are.
-Remember: Your weapon was made by the lowest bidder.
-If your attack is going really well, it's an ambush.
-No plan survives the first contact intact.
-All 5-second grenade fuses will burn out in 3.
-Try to look unimportant. The enemy may be low on ammo.
-If you are forward of your position the artillery will always fall short.
-The important things are always hard.
-The simple things are always simple.
-The easy way is always hard.
-If you are short of everything except enemy, you're in combat.
-When you have secured an objective, don't forget to let the enemy know about it.
-Incoming fire has the right of way.
-If the enemy is in range, SO ARE YOU.
-No combat ready unit ever passed inspection.
-Beer math: two beers times 37 men equals 49 cases.
-Body count math: two guerillas plus one portable plus two pigs equals 37 enemy KIA.
-Things that must be together to work usually can't be shipped together.
-Radios will fail as soon as you need fire support desperately.
-Anything you do can get you shot, including doing nothing.
-Tracers work both ways.
-The only thing more accurate than incoming enemy fire is incoming friendly fire.
-Make it tough for the enemy to get in and you can't get out.
-If you more than your fair share of objectives, you will have more than your fair share of objectives to take.
-When both sides are convinced that they are about to lose, they are both right.
-Professional soldier are predictable, but the world is full of amateurs.
Murphy was a Green Beret. -
Allow me to share the experience of how combat equipment helps you.
You're sweating and a mixture of sweat and camo paint keeps getting into your eyes. The fact that your helmet is lopsided doesn't help... you have this night vision equipment hanging off it. The weight of the NVG unbalances your helmet. You have it because it is estab equipment and you are supposed to use it. However, most of the time, you try to push it to one side and keep it out of your way - you only wayang and use it when there are observers.
One big problem with the NVG is that it has a very limited field of view. You lose peripheral vision. It's sometimes easier to detect movement if you just stare into the darkness and turn your head and see if you can catch a flicker in the corner of your eye.
During the day, it's hard to see the screen of a PDA. The sunlight washes out the screen. At night, the glow of your screen can be seen from far far away. You need to find ways to conceal the light. Most of the time, you just leave it off.
You need to carry batteries to power all the electronics you are carrying and you silently curse every gram. You have your signal set... or maybe your runner carries it for you. But you carry backup comms (sms) or walkie talkie.
You can't prone down because you've got a map bag, bino and all sort of stuff hanging off your chest. If you have to get down. You gingerly kneel and lie down. First of all, it hurts like hell when all the stuff digs into your chest. Secondly, you don't want to sign 1206 if something falls off and you lose it.
Sometimes, you try out toys that attach cameras on your rifle and supposedly let's your shoot around corners without exposing yourself. Yup it works. But it still weighs a ton and the case in comes in weighs a ton as well.
And we are not even talking about the full 'Land Warrior" suite yet. -
look at the rifle! MAF in Dili with M4 and M16
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those aren't M4s. they're M16 Commando. only the MAF special forces or selected guys in some infantry unit use it.
those men in black helmets are special forces. -
what about the one leaning at the radio?
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i can only distinguish three features i.e. a really worn out retractable butt, carry handle and slightly longish barrel, unlike the really really short m16 commando. i admit it could also be an m4.
the thing was the timor leste job was what? 2-3 years ago? i thought the announcement to change over to m4 was not more than 12 months back. it was not known whether these m4s are already in country. if it was, it could very well be used by the special forces. not a radio operator of a para unit.