MAF abandon Steyr after 15-year service
-
Originally posted by kotay:
You forgot to add:
Gary: MAF is nuts, the 416 is a better weapon.
Chino: The M4 is the best solution for the MAF, you then nuts
G: But the 416 is better ... both you and MAF nuts
C: Doesn't matter, SAS makes the M4 look good ... you siow
G: 416 don't jam in sand ... who use M4 anyway ... gila ...
Kotay: Keep asking pedantic questions
Originally posted by kotay:
Please do, let this topic R.I.P.
So please do go on while I bow out ...
-
In concluding, the M4 is not crap and MAF is not a "laughing stock" for selecting it.
-
Originally posted by Daniel-Lim:In concluding, the M4 is not crap and MAF is not a "laughing stock" for selecting it.
It is your own conclusion not mine, in fact not many ppl agreed. -
i agreed with daniel...no micro particle in malaysia..and can get a lot gadget for the weapon....they have use the M4 variant 20 over years...and no one in their army or spec ops complain...the have use m16 family...to and no one complain......
i beg to differ gary...a lot of people prefer the M4...if the gas blowback a problem...u can always replace the upper receiver.
.......in the movie 'i am legend'...of all the weapon in this world will smith can choose (since he is the last man on earth)......he choose M4 -
So does your opinion matter?Originally posted by gary1910:
It is your own conclusion not mine, in fact not many ppl agreed. -
So do you , but at least I dun ignore reports abt the opinions of experts, veterans and leaked test results abt the M16 series:Originally posted by Daniel-Lim:So does your opinion matter?
The USA's M4 Carbine Controversy:
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/the-usas-m4-carbine-controversy-03289/
Army tests of rival carbines postponed:
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/09/army_rifletest_070920/
2ndly, do you ever fire any other arms other than M16 to actually form some objective opinion by comparing it to other different designs?
Here some vids abt HK 416
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObXZMepn3SI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zSPwZXfDnM
What impressive abt the the vids is that after firing abt a mag, the 416's bolt remain cold, M16 will need at least 1/2 hr to cool down before you could even touch it!!!
As I have already said, I have tested gas piston AR b4, I know how little carbon buildup in the bolt etc, carbon buildup only in the piston, so when comparing M16 gas blowback, I will prefer gas piston AR anytime , as long as accuracy , range and reliability of other parts are equal!!
Lastly, only by extensive testing will one know how good the AR or to compare with other AR, your those limited ranges where you only fire less than 30 per rds each time is not a real test for reliability or even simulate a actual combat situation where one contact is easily go above 100 rds! -
Originally posted by gary1910:
YAWN.... just shut up.
So do you , but at least I dun ignore reports abt the opinions of experts, veterans and leaked test results abt the M16 series:
[b]The USA's M4 Carbine Controversy:
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/the-usas-m4-carbine-controversy-03289/
Army tests of rival carbines postponed:
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/09/army_rifletest_070920/
2ndly, do you ever fire any other arms other than M16 to actually form some objective opinion by comparing it to other different designs?
Here some vids abt HK 416
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObXZMepn3SI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zSPwZXfDnM
What impressive abt the the vids is that after firing abt a mag, the 416's bolt remain cold, M16 will need at least 1/2 hr to cool down before you could even touch it!!!
As I have already said, I have tested gas piston AR b4, I know how little carbon buildup in the bolt etc, carbon buildup only in the piston, so when comparing M16 gas blowback, I will prefer gas piston AR anytime , as long as accuracy , range and reliability of other parts are equal!!
Lastly, only by extensive testing will one know how good the AR or to compare with other AR, your those limited ranges where you only fire less than 30 per rds each time is not a real test for reliability or even simulate a actual combat situation where one contact is easily go above 100 rds!
[/b] -
Great post and insightful information that hopefully will be picked up by our DSTA and help to improve Singapore's SAR-21 further.Originally posted by gary1910:So do you , but at least I dun ignore reports abt the opinions of experts, veterans and leaked test results abt the M16 series:
The USA's M4 Carbine Controversy:
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/the-usas-m4-carbine-controversy-03289/
Army tests of rival carbines postponed:
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/09/army_rifletest_070920/
2ndly, do you ever fire any other arms other than M16 to actually form some objective opinion by comparing it to other different designs?
Here some vids abt HK 416
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObXZMepn3SI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zSPwZXfDnM
What impressive abt the the vids is that after firing abt a mag, the 416's bolt remain cold, M16 will need at least 1/2 hr to cool down before you could even touch it!!!
As I have already said, I have tested gas piston AR b4, I know how little carbon buildup in the bolt etc, carbon buildup only in the piston, so when comparing M16 gas blowback, I will prefer gas piston AR anytime , as long as accuracy , range and reliability of other parts are equal!!
Lastly, only by extensive testing will one know how good the AR or to compare with other AR, your those limited ranges where you only fire less than 30 per rds each time is not a real test for reliability or even simulate a actual combat situation where one contact is easily go above 100 rds!
Was surprised to read in another forum that the SAR-21 has been adopted by Indonesian Air Force - Special Force.
BTW - from the same referenced forum - did we actually give away the FH-2000 and SF-260 {as well as the Jupiter Diving Support Ship} to the Indonesian Armed Forces {TNI} ? -
No one has refuted or bothered to refute Gary's point on the 416's gas piston system. It is more reliable, and maintainable than the M4. Simply put, what the M4 can do, the 416 can do better.
However, there is no way MAF could have acquired licenses to manufacture from HK.
IMO, they oughta stick to the Steyr and improve on their QC. -
Not only that Indon also bought some Utimax100 , CIS 40AGL etc.Originally posted by Atobe:
Was surprised to read in another forum that the SAR-21 has been adopted by Indonesian Air Force - Special Force.
BTW - from the same referenced forum - did we actually give away the FH-2000 and SF-260 {as well as the Jupiter Diving Support Ship} to the Indonesian Armed Forces {TNI} ?
As for the stuff we give away to TNI, SF-260 trainers and Jupiter Diving Support Ship were reported officially in Mindef website.
And the arty piece , it was actually FH-88, not FH-2000 as some one posted here b4. -
The Indons are also one of the few people who bought our CIS 50.
I have often wondered why there are so few takers for our CIS 50? Everyone seems to stick with the old favourite Browning .5HB. But the CIS 50 is leaps and bounds ahead. -
the browning is battle - tested. but ours?Originally posted by chino65:The Indons are also one of the few people who bought our CIS 50.
I have often wondered why there are so few takers for our CIS 50? Everyone seems to stick with the old favourite Browning .5HB. But the CIS 50 is leaps and bounds ahead. -
The reason for the delay in replacing the ,5 in US service is due to some ambitious 25mm calibre programme called the 25mm XM307 ACSW. This was meant to replace the .5 (12.7mm) class of HMG.Originally posted by Lance_han:the browning is battle - tested. but ours?
http://world.guns.ru/machine/mg39-e.htm
http://world.guns.ru/grenade/gl24-e.htm
...
Actually, a lot of our equipment are "battle-tested" by TNI in Indonesia. The U100 is the most battle-tested as its sales had been successful in many parts of the world.
CIS50
U100
CIS 40
-
oh .. okay. Well, gotta admit, operational requirements of our potential customers and as well as politics play a big part in weapons sales .. and since when was equipment "battle-tested" by TNI a factor in other countries buying locally - produced weapons?Originally posted by chino65:The reason for the delay in replacing the ,5 in US service is due to some ambitious 25mm calibre programme called the 25mm XM307 ACSW. This was meant to replace the .5 (12.7mm) class of HMG.
http://world.guns.ru/machine/mg39-e.htm
http://world.guns.ru/grenade/gl24-e.htm
...
Actually, a lot of our equipment are "battle-tested" by TNI in Indonesia. The U100 is the most battle-tested as its sales had been successful in many parts of the world.
CIS50
U100
CIS 40 -
True.Originally posted by Lance_han:oh .. okay. Well, gotta admit, operational requirements of our potential customers and as well as politics play a big part in weapons sales .. and since when was equipment "battle-tested" by TNI a factor in other countries buying locally - produced weapons?
Another reason I put inverted commas on " battle tested " is I guess shooting usually unarmed civilians don't count as much of a battle anyway...
The U100 on the other hand, had been sold to many countries including wartime Croatia and used by some mercenaries in some unidentified war pictures. I wonder what the battle reports are? -
when hit..they died..same as other weapon..Originally posted by chino65:True.
Another reason I put inverted commas on " battle tested " is I guess shooting usually unarmed civilians don't count as much of a battle anyway...
The U100 on the other hand, had been sold to many countries including wartime Croatia and used by some mercenaries in some unidentified war pictures. I wonder what the battle reports are? -
when hit..they died..same as other weapon..
or is it when knocked, they don't die. not like other weapons.
kinda like the Energizer commercials where the bunnies with Energizer can do bunny things a whole lot longer than bunnies using other brand of batteries.
in this case, its a commercial where the bunnies can shoot 20,000 rds of whatever in field condition whereas the others can only shoot 5,000 rds of whatever before calling it a day .... -
the issue come from a question by this Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla....it is so ironic that he is also the one who advocate the use of HK as standard AR? I wonder if HK is one of the major donater of his campaign....also it is his own initiative that a survey (not through the army, or navy..or airforce) be conducted to M4 user in both desert front (i emphasied desert)
Unfortunately Brig. Gen. Mark Brown, the commander of Program Executive Office Soldier, were not impress with the claim because ...Brown said he received no complaints about the M4 carbineÂ’s performance from soldiers during a recent trip to Iraq.
Anyway a test will be conducted in this December..agains the HK and other modern AR. So thats mean there is no confirmation yet. For all i know this story about jammed M4 is exagarated by this senator who ..wink wink..maybe receive some donation by wink wink..some AR manufacturer.
i sincerely doubt on any survey done by a polititian...but i am willing to give a benefit of a doubt untill the test is over.
On the other side of the note...it seem that other M4 operator...were quiet regarding this jammed in dust thingy....its either because its not true..or its not happen that often than the one that been use in desert surrounding. -
I was talking about the reliability testing of our weapon systems in battle conditions by TNI.Originally posted by tankfanatic:when hit..they died..same as other weapon..
When shooting unarmed civilians the TNI soldiers won't have to dive for cover, come under arty bombardment or crawl through mud etc. Which isn't real " battle-testing " of those weapons, is what I meant. -
some eye candy courtesy of standupper mpsa.
anyone can tell what M16 carbine these soldiers carry? -
Looks like the ones used by SAF SM1 tank crews, we just called them carbines. I am not sure of the official designation though.Originally posted by ferryman2393:
some eye candy courtesy of standupper mpsa.
anyone can tell what M16 carbine these soldiers carry?
-
Also used by our scouts - brand new ones I saw. Before SAR-21 of course.Originally posted by tankee1981:Looks like the ones used by SAF SM1 tank crews, we just called them carbines. I am not sure of the official designation though.
Some people refer to it as the Israeli-pattern CAR-15 or something.
The US carbine had an even shorter barrel called the Colt Commando or something. Then the Israelis come up with a requirement for a cabine with a longer barrel.
They are the biggest user of this carbine. See pics below. (1st pic very unusual, both are left-handed)
Easiest way to tell the difference with M4 is that the barrel is smooth. M4 barrel got areas with different thickness.
The M4, is actually very close to this CAR-15 in dimension.
-
Last pic: Cute chick with sweet smile and carbine....priceless....Originally posted by chino65:Also used by our scouts - brand new ones I saw. Before SAR-21 of course.
Some people refer to it as the Israeli-pattern CAR-15 or something.
The US carbine had an even shorter barrel called the Colt Commando or something. Then the Israelis come up with a requirement for a cabine with a longer barrel.
They are the biggest user of this carbine. See pics below. (1st pic very unusual, both are left-handed)
Easiest way to tell the difference with M4 is that the barrel is smooth. M4 barrel got areas with different thickness.
The M4, is actually very close to this CAR-15 in dimension. -
Will someone please volunteer to stand 600 m in front of an M4 fitted with an ACOG scope and then be shot at. Then come back to tell the forum about the poor wounding ( assuming did not miss at this great distance ) effects from this short barrelled weapon.
-
Yes, i fully agree. MAF is not a laughing stock FOR selecting it...Originally posted by Daniel-Lim:In concluding, the M4 is not crap and MAF is not a "laughing stock" for selecting it.Will someone please volunteer to stand 600 m in front of an M4 fitted with an ACOG scope and then be shot at. Then come back to tell the forum about the poor wounding ( assuming did not miss at this great distance ) effects from this short barrelled weapon.
Sure, Buy me Dragonskin first.
Besides, the 5.56s reduced wounding from shorter barrelled weapons is not being contested. Just the M4 being adopted as the "next generation" standard infantry issue.
I'd take a 416 over an M4 any day. It IS a better weapon.
