Which is the favourite weapon/military vehicle u have used?
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Hmm, yeah. Shotguns definitely not for itchy trigger fingered NSFs.Originally posted by chanjyj:Not true. when I was in a certain unit, I used the shotgun, personal choice.(We were allowed to pick our own weapons; of course, people not so stupid as to all pick GPMG or all pick shotgun or all pick sniper or all pick 84mm)
Jokes aside, the we-know-what unit specialises in close combat and other ops so they have a more practical use for shotguns I suppose. The SAF just dun see a need for them when it comes to conventional ops when we already have so much firepower in a section.
I love my M4.
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SpecialOps -you are totally wrong in the fact that shotgun is not practial or useful in jungle warfare.Originally posted by specialOps:Shotgun, no. Not practical or useful in jungle warfare.
It is a very good and useful weapon in jungle warefare - as jungle warefare range is limited - thus shotgun is very effective ..
Also in reaction to ambush !!! it can shoot out a wall of lead which is like claymore. Usually very handly for point man and - in the tough jungle condition - shotgun usually do not jam !!! -
Shotgun - is useful in urban and jungle condition which range of 50M and below is most of the engagement happen !!!Originally posted by specialOps:As I explained...it is not practical or useful in combat. The range is too short, reloading is too slow, too few rounds can be carried.
Most combat takes place at beyond 100m range, shooting each other with assault rifles...if you carry shotgun for infantry warfare, you shoot hit nothing, only attract enemy to fire at you.
For urban warfare, automatic fire is preferred, more accurate and less likely for civilian casualty.
Most armed forces do not have shotgunners....I think you play too much CS.
Shotgun in SAF have...but for protection of installations (mainly at Jurong Island), for the specific purpose to bring down terrorists at close range. That's all. Even then, they're still partnered with someone carrying a SAR-21.
Modern auto shotgun - can shoot out all 7 shots before the 1st casing can hit the floor that is how fast it can go .... imagine 7 shoot out - the effect is like claymore - a wall of lead at enemy ... that is how powerful it can be.
Well shotgun is faster to bring into action and area target .... that is what make it deadly in situation of urban and jungle .
Imagine - a person just have to bring up a shotgun general direction and shoot - a wall of lead some of them is sure to hit you - you think you can beat him in fast action ... no you will not even have time to aim to shoot of the 1st round.... !!! -
storywolf is correct to some extent, I konw from experience.
However, you also have to be able to move without being seen, and move silently till you reach the 30m mark, aka not some blur NSF where enemy sees you from 400m away because you stick your backside up while leopard crawling.
So, in the SAF, for most intents and purposes, keep the shotguns away as it is basically useless. -
These are all Russian 12-gauge shotguns. -
Dont take the following seriously:
In the Jungle
Shotgunner! Enemy left! Auto shot gun boom boom boom boom. ......
Wah lao Ehz Sergeant! You want wild boar for dinner also dont have to scare me to abuse the shot gun mahz!
In Urban area
Contacted! Boom boom boom..
Oh shit civilian....... dont need medic liaoz....
I know i know...len siao hua....(Cold/lame joke)
P.S. i dont know about shotguns usage in SAF not from THAT unit. -
These are all Russian 12-gauge shotguns. Surprised? If shotguns have no military use I wonder why they made it into assault rifle configurations?
Notice the jagged muzzle on the last 2 pics? This is meant for stabbing enemy. There are many makers of such "stabbing muzzles" for all the differrent rifles. -
I don't think any of these Russian shotguns are capable of full-auto, and most gun writers say that a 12-gauge shotgun on fullauto is uncontrollable by most people and is a danger to friend and foe alike.
The most famous fullauto shotgun is the US/S Korean USAS-12. Don't know how it handles, though. I've fired a 12-gauge recently and it kicked like a mule. The recoil I can handle, but it also felt like someone punched me in the cheek everytime I fired. I wouldn't want to shoot one in fullauto.
The shotgun doesn't actually fire a wall of lead. You still have to aim to hit something.
At 15m, the spread was about the diameter or someone's head or less, depending on barrel length, I think.
The lead shots only spread out significantly beyond 30m, by my estimate.
Actually the lethality of the shotgun is when many of the pellets hit you. If one or 2 pellets hit you ar 40m you'd probably be able to keep fighting.
Each 12-gauge 00 buckshot shell usually contain less than 10 pellets, so the wall of lead is only when a significant number of these pellets hit the enemy. And for that, you have to aim.
I'm definitely in love with shotguns, especially pump-action as the action of charging the gun is so...erm... Hollywood. So, yah, favourite weapon - shotgun. -
Originally posted by specialOps:
Gurkha not under SOC
However, police's Special Operations Command arm their Ghurkas with Shotgun when protecting special events.
Anyway took this pic during IMF
Gurkhas always operate "1 shotgun- 1 MP5" during guard duties. A very good approach. -
Chino, Auto shotgun is not for you to shoot like M16 on full auto-it's a diff conceptOriginally posted by chino65:I don't think any of these Russian shotguns are capable of full-auto, and most gun writers say that a 12-gauge shotgun on fullauto is uncontrollable by most people and is a danger to friend and foe alike.
The most famous fullauto shotgun is the US/S Korean USAS-12. Don't know how it handles, though. I've fired a 12-gauge recently and it kicked like a mule. The recoil I can handle, but it also felt like someone punched me in the cheek everytime I fired. I wouldn't want to shoot one in fullauto.
The shotgun doesn't actually fire a wall of lead. You still have to aim to hit something.
At 15m, the spread was about the diameter or someone's head or less, depending on barrel length, I think.
The lead shots only spread out significantly beyond 30m, by my estimate.
Actually the lethality of the shotgun is when many of the pellets hit you. If one or 2 pellets hit you ar 40m you'd probably be able to keep fighting.
Each 12-gauge 00 buckshot shell usually contain less than 10 pellets, so the wall of lead is only when a significant number of these pellets hit the enemy. And for that, you have to aim.
I'm definitely in love with shotguns, especially pump-action as the action of charging the gun is so...erm... Hollywood. So, yah, favourite weapon - shotgun.
Auto shotgun is simply such that you don't need to coc.k the gun after each shot-so you can still keep your sights more-or-less on the target (when you co.ck the gun the sights go off, at least from my experience). Auto shotguns also allow you to fire at a faster rate than pump-action (unless you really CAN pump that fast). But never hold down the trigger like an M16.
If you can fire non-stop on a shotgun you must be made of.. erm..
N.B. Forgive my terminology. It's been awhile. I'm not exactly sure if you call it co.cking the gun after each shot for a pump action shotgun.
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Erm. why does the shotgun need a bipod?Originally posted by chino65:
These are all Russian 12-gauge shotguns. -
What is THAT unit.Originally posted by CM06:Dont take the following seriously:
In the Jungle
Shotgunner! Enemy left! Auto shot gun boom boom boom boom. ......
Wah lao Ehz Sergeant! You want wild boar for dinner also dont have to scare me to abuse the shot gun mahz!
In Urban area
Contacted! Boom boom boom..
Oh shit civilian....... dont need medic liaoz....
I know i know...len siao hua....(Cold/lame joke)
P.S. i dont know about shotguns usage in SAF not from THAT unit. -
I dun' remember going to 300m range for ATP. We shoot at 100m for support arms.Originally posted by cydus21:den SAF train u to shoot at 300m range for wat?
SOF uses shotgun. saw them shootin down door locks close range in urban area during training few years back. yes live shells and it is training.. private ambulance too.. cool shist
by the way M16 is still the best. beats SAR21 anytime. except in urban warfare.. GPMG is still my fav thou
300m use M-16? Forget it lar. Get the mortars up, or call some vehicles in to zuah. Nobody's gonna do any fighting from 300m out. Thats not the job of a rifle.
With regards to shotguns, no they aren't awesome area-clearing-weapons although some development did go into this field. But when u want something with a lot of stopping power, thats the way to go.
I don't think anyone takes a shell from a shotgun and is able to react productively. -
Erm... chanjyj, I think you must not understand the difference between what is a FULL-AUTO shotgun and a SEMI-AUTO shotgun.Originally posted by chanjyj:Chino, Auto shotgun is not for you to shoot like M16 on full auto-it's a diff concept
Auto shotgun is simply such that you don't need to coc.k the gun after each shot....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIvh6On2uf8
EDIT: Well, here is a video of a shotgun going full-auto. Enjoy.
Nobody appointed you as an authority on shotguns. We are all here to share and learn so please drop your arrogant attitude. -
Erm...if you look at the video I posted, you will see that the mag extends well below the firer's elbow.Originally posted by chanjyj:Erm. why does the shotgun need a bipod?
Here's a guess:
... if you are in prone position with this weapon, you may need a bipod just to support the weapon. cos your left hand won't be long enough. Does it make sense?
Or maybe you should write to the Russian arms maker and tell them that you - chanjyj - do not approve of bipods on shotguns? -
Let me guess, you picked the Death Ray.Originally posted by chanjyj:Not true. when I was in a certain unit, I used the shotgun, personal choice.(We were allowed to pick our own weapons -
step aside boys..
my favourite weapon.. soon to be the US's Armys de facto...
The Heckler & Koch XM8
And why do i love it so much???!!
Cartridge 5.56 × 45 mm NATO
Action Gas-operated, Rotating bolt
Rate of fire 750 rounds/min
Muzzle velocity 920 m/s
Effective range 200 to 800 m Sight Marks
Feed system 30 round detachable box
Dam cool, can fire even after being burried in sand, or droped in water.
Those guys who played Star Wars Repblic Commando would have a hell lots of fun with this.
check out http://www.hksystems.com.au/xm8.htm
saw one before... wish i can shoot it thou.
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I like the SAF troll head for trailer... no SWD and air conditional'ed....
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lol....death ray
shot gun is a weapon with specific use...it cant and wont replace assault rifle. But the aussies say its a superb weapon in jungle firefight against the comunist terrorist.... its from their experience, so it is useful. -
A Joint Service Combat Shotgun Program report on the legality of shotguns in war states, in support of the use of the shotgun in warfare, "the probability of hitting a man-sized target with a shotgun was superior to that of all other weapons", and goes on to support this with statistics compiled by the British from the conflict in Borneo in the 1960s[1].Originally posted by chanjyj:storywolf is correct to some extent, I konw from experience.
However, you also have to be able to move without being seen, and move silently till you reach the 30m mark, aka not some blur NSF where enemy sees you from 400m away because you stick your backside up while leopard crawling.
So, in the SAF, for most intents and purposes, keep the shotguns away as it is basically useless.
The buckshot typically used in a combat shotgun spreads out to a greater or lesser degree depending on the barrel choke, and can be effective at ranges as far as 75 yards (70 m). The delivery of the large number of projectiles simultaneously makes the shotgun the most effective short range weapon commonly used, with a hit probability 45% greater than a submachine gun, and twice as great as an assault rifle[1]. While each pellet is only as effective as a small caliber handgun, and offers very poor penetration against an armored target, the multiple projectiles increases the likelihood of one or more peripheral wounds -
Um... you do realize that the US Army cancelled the XM8 project two years ago, right?Originally posted by uglyguy:step aside boys..
my favourite weapon.. soon to be the US's Armys de facto...
The Heckler & Koch XM8
Army cancels XM8 project -
Chino, if you feel I am arrogant then so be it. I did not mean to put you or anyone down, for that matter.Originally posted by chino65:Erm... chanjyj, I think you must not understand the difference between what is a FULL-AUTO shotgun and a SEMI-AUTO shotgun.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIvh6On2uf8
EDIT: Well, here is a video of a shotgun going full-auto. Enjoy.
Nobody appointed you as an authority on shotguns. We are all here to share and learn so please drop your arrogant attitude.
Admit I have mistook a full auto for a semi-auto then. In this case, (after watching the video you have posted), I think I can say for sure the SAF doesn't have operational full auto shotguns.
N.B. since it seems my words has pissed off chino65 and he doesn't like it, I will withdraw from this thread to avoid any furthur conflict. -
shotgun in jungle op -
Unless you want to employ a fully-auto 0.5 Browning HMG at vehicle checkpoint on Singapore, your next less "lethal" and "intimidating" weapon is a shotgun loaded with solid-shot. There are solid shots designed to engage on-coming thin-skinned vehicle frontally. They can penetrate the radiator without losing much velocity and shatter the engine block, stopping the vehicle in it's track with a few well-aimed rounds.
You might have seen demo where the full-metal jacket 5.56mm round and 9mm round penetrate the doors of ordinary sedan and maiming the subjects in the cabin. Those shots are fired at the side of the vehicle, a broadside. To hit the driver from the front is a different story. The 2-litre engine block is in the way and the slopped wind-screen may deflect off the puny 5.56mm and 9mm rounds. You don't want to take chances when you engaged an explosive-packed sedan with a suicide bomber behind the wheel. He/She might have rigged the vehicle to crash in the event that he/she met a "pre-mature" death. You want reliable stopping power from well-aimed shots in a crowded and flammable environment.
Gun designs in the 60's and 70's are built around the cartridge. In terms of gun design, we have reached a plateau in gun performance i.e., design-wise, we have max out on ergonomics, weight, reliability and etc.
So, if you want to design the next revoluntionary kinetic energy based assault rifle, please start on the cartridge. -
Eh, the guy who mention the 0.5 HMG and 5.56mm to stop suicide vehicle.
What's inbetween?
40MM AGL(yeah it's not THAT big a bang lah..more like plack)
M203
GPMG
SAW
LAW lah..we have so many now since the matador is introduced..(just dont miss this MFker lands with a boom)
Claymore - this is one big big boom.
Anyway, any KINS will be barricaded and sand bagged.