Ultimax being phased out?
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Agree...mebbe time for a Ultimax Ultimate. Can fit SAR21 and M16 mags, be belt fed or drum fed as well. Thing is...do we even have 5.56 on links?Originally posted by deathscythe99:I think the more impt issue would be how spare magazines for those with SAR21s and those with Ultimax could be passed ard...because in war, when the gunner is out of bullets, it would be so much easier if his mate can pass him a spare mag which can fit into his gun ASAP. -
SpecOps87, the right way to use SAW - is automatic mode fire short 3-5 burst !!! even for machine gun also the same, as this is to just use the needed ammo to do that job. Control burst allow you to control you rounds and gun easier to hit the target. If 3-5 rounds did not take down that target !!! you thing an extra 10 rounds will be do it?Originally posted by SpecOps87:What I don't get is..why can't the a crank be used to set the spring to tension? Ultimax is supposed to be SAW (Section Automatic Weapon) it often ends up being SBW (Section Burst Weapon) as gunners are told to fire in short bursts...sheesh.
Rambo may look good on TV but they way he is firing, he is not going to hit anything as he went full auto .... after the first few rounds, he most proability went wide on the target. -
Most pictures of the Ultimax that I have seen being used by foreign armies and mercenaries featured the 100-round drum.
These people wouldn't be buying the Ultimax-100 only to use it as a Ultimax-30.
Though I, too, had my doubts about the drum, I can only assume that it works well enough, for people like the Indos to have bought quantities of it.
Interesting thing about belted 5.56 ammo. The AFP (Philippines Armed Forces) bought Minimis over the Ultimax and then found that belted 5.56 ammo was either too expensive or scarce since the Philippines didn't produce them. And 2 people on the Timawa site reported that they preferred the Ultimax over the Minimi as the Ultimax was lighter and more accurate, and tons cheaper. But most of all, it didn't require the production of belted ammo.
But drums vs belt is a debate requiring its own thread and it's been done many times and on this forum, too.
I agree with Dave's comment about hand-loading the drum but as someone pointed out, you can hand load up to 50rds or something.
I'm sure Sullivan considered all the different drum systems before deciding on the current Ultimax system. No drum system had worked well so far.
The Russians traditionally favoured drums but even they had given it up. They had drums for their PPD and PPsh-41 SMGs. They had drums for their RPK (SAW AK-47). The 75-rd drums were "heavy, expensive and hard to load" according to Modern Firearms. They were loaded the traditional way from the lip.
THe RPD and German MG-34 snail drums aren't really drums as they nothing more than a container for the belt ammo.
AS far as I know, the Germans never used drum mags except for one on the MP-18 SMG during the WW2.
I also remember seeing pics of a HK LMG with a big capacity box mag with a transparent back.
Now only the PLA (QBZ-95 LMG) and SAF (Ultimax100) operate drums as far as I can recall offhand.
The US military had experience with 1 drum system in the Thompson SMG and was not satisfied with the Thompson drum. They also used the now-dead "pan" magazine in the Lewis Gun.
So it will be a real surprise if the US military does decide on the Ultimax. It is often very hard to change deeply entrenched perceptions as we all know too well. Even though it was designed by Jim Sullivan.
Will the Ultimax be phased out was a question I asked before. One of its main advantage of sharing mags with the rifleman is gone out the window with the STUPID decision to adopt non-M16 mags for the SAF SAR-21.
Anyone who says a better M16 mag can't be made should realise that our old-fashioned SAF aluminium mags aren't used by most countries still using STANAG mags. HK have made stainless steel ones. Diemaco have their own etc etc. -
My point is being in FOFO or FIBUA mate...sometimes u just need that overwhelming firepower to either mow enemies down or simply keep their heads down.Originally posted by storywolf:SpecOps87, the right way to use SAW - is automatic mode fire short 3-5 burst !!! even for machine gun also the same, as this is to just use the needed ammo to do that job. Control burst allow you to control you rounds and gun easier to hit the target. If 3-5 rounds did not take down that target !!! you thing an extra 10 rounds will be do it?
Rambo may look good on TV but they way he is firing, he is not going to hit anything as he went full auto .... after the first few rounds, he most proability went wide on the target. -
Our static suppressing fire doctrine does not require the SAW. The SAW is meant for mobile back-up automatic fire.Originally posted by SpecOps87:My point is being in FOFO or FIBUA mate...sometimes u just need that overwhelming firepower to either mow enemies down or simply keep their heads down. -
If I am suddenly ambushed or other desperate scenario I sure hope the SAW guy isn't thinking of conserving ammo. If he has to empty a whole drum then he has to. And I think the Ultimax will still be accurate in short range fullauto long bursts due to its low rate of fire and controllability. You can think about lecturing him on ammo conservation if you are still alive after contact.
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well, if u ever been to army served and operate in a section, u know tat SAW is a heavy weapon, thou it looks skinny, the primary role of a SAW gunner is to provide flank security and back up the section (correct me if im wrong if there's any lao chiao peng, i left sispec long ago), to jus switch to auto n full burst is not gonna hit anythin, short burst is alot alot more accurate...
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The saw might be heavier than the m16 but the fact ther's a foregrip i always found it easier to carry and swing around since the CoG is more balance. Compared to the M203/M16 that i always carry....different stroke different folks i guess.
The SAW can put a round (or three) up your nostrils at 100m. With tracers, i dont see much of an accuracy problem for even further distance. considering it's amazingly low recoil. Saw is a good suppressive fire that can actually hit something. You dont stand around when someone is firing bursts. One shot might miss...but a cluster of three to five....
My 2 cents worth. -
Yup, The SAW is really very very accurate. I totally love it.
If only it comes with a scope....I would have preferred it to the SAR-21 as my personal weapon. -
Ok...given that even if the gunner fires a 5/6 round burst of suppression, that gives him 5/6 bursts tops...how do you hold and keep people's head's down when you reload? I don't have the slightest idea.
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Which army were you in?Originally posted by ijack022399k:u know tat SAW is a heavy weapon, thou it looks skinny,
The SAW that I know is very light. Only the balance is not so good cos the back very light and the front is heavier. If you find it heavy you must be really weak. It weighs about the same as the M16/M203 package.
Even the small guys in my reservist platoon had no problem with the SAW.
The SAW primary role is to give the section its own effective automatic fire during the assault - that's why it is called Section Assault Weapon.Originally posted by ijack022399k:the primary role of a SAW gunner is to provide flank security and back up the section
I can provide flank security with a SAW, or a rifle or M203. But I cannot use the rifle or the M203 to provide automatic fire during the assault.
To brush the cobwebs from your brain, the SAW can only fire in automatic mode, there's no switch for burst fire.Originally posted by ijack022399k:.... to jus switch to auto n full burst is not gonna hit anythin, short burst is alot alot more accurate...
And contrary to what you said, our SAW can hit everything that you can aim at even if you squeeze the trigger and don't let go until your magazine is empty.
Esepcially in the shorter range context of an ambush.
Don't believe me? Go check out the Ultimax video on Youtube. The guy squeezed off 1 whole C-mag drum while standing up and never released the trigger. And he was writing "S" shapes in the water with the bullets.
Can't hit anything?
Question is, "U" ever been to army?Originally posted by ijack022399k:well, if u ever been to army served and operate in a section, -
Hey chino65 mate, you are speaking to a person that know nuts about U100.Originally posted by chino65:Question is, "U" ever been to army?
I would say that U100 is one of the best weapon developed by ST. Light, accurate and if you have spare barrel and lots of ammo, can perform quite a good support role.
Only down fall is the pentration power of 5.56 rounds, limits it's role as a firebase weapons.
What ever the matter, U100 and M203 remain my best choice of weapon in open area objective assault. -
Overwhelming firepower does not mean holding down the trigger and shoot ! just for effect !!! how many bullets it need to take a man down. If he is behind cover you cannot hit him mean cannot, even one whole magazine also useless, if you can hit him, 3-5 rounds already done, why rambo to show off.Originally posted by SpecOps87:My point is being in FOFO or FIBUA mate...sometimes u just need that overwhelming firepower to either mow enemies down or simply keep their heads down.
Effective fire is the word to use for saw ... !!! Just shoot in burst to get the job done, not more not less.
In a fibua situation, everyone is most of the time under cover, how overwhelming firepower can a ultimax get - limited by the penetation of 5.56 rounds ...... first you do not have that type of ammo to waste, second you overwhelming firepower, too attract overwhelming attention, which enemy would have clearly pinpoint your location and throw everything to get you first. -
GMPG is a heavy weapon not saw !!!Originally posted by ijack022399k:well, if u ever been to army served and operate in a section, u know tat SAW is a heavy weapon, thou it looks skinny, the primary role of a SAW gunner is to provide flank security and back up the section (correct me if im wrong if there's any lao chiao peng, i left sispec long ago), to jus switch to auto n full burst is not gonna hit anythin, short burst is alot alot more accurate...
Ijack022399k, it is obvious from your statement, - "that just switch to auto n full burst is not gonna hit anything " already can tell you do not have any experience with Ultimate 100. You just taking your experience with M16.
What you descript is M16 - which is hard to control when you go full auto and that the reason why we have ultimax100 instead. For ultimax - it is already auto, so no switching to full auto- just safe and auto mode.
I have shoot so much with ultimax 100 that it is the best rifle i ever fire. It controlability in auto fire is just unbelievable. i have shot in stand up postion using one hand like rambo in a range before, and let go 100rds at one go, it is so controlable that i use it to cut 3 target in 1/2 ..... right in the middle.
Full automatic mode, you going to hit everything still, but then you are just wasting your rounds, as is 3-5 rounds already done the job, why waste more. -
For the fellow (i cant quote the buttons all disappear for some reason) who asked what's the use of a 30 rd mag for a saw when you squeeze at 5 to at most 10 times you have to reload.
Ans: You are not rambo. You provide cover fire equivalent to -THREE- M16s. So while -they reload- you fire bit by bit. When you reload, you have three people to cover you. Imagine what you can do if you have the 100 rd drum.
Regarding the penetration of the 5.56mm.
If i remember correctly, the barrel length of the SAW is much longer than our M16s or SAR for that matter. Increase barrel length = increase power as well no? I follow the concept for sniper rifle. What you cannot shoot through with M16, you have a been chance doing with the SAW.
Regarding our SAWs accuracy, I say again, most decent first timers can probably hit you with a ten round spray while experts can put rounds up your nostrils @ 100 metre one handed. It's like hack with aim-bot.
One thing though, you can clean until you grow old and you will still find carbon in one of those things! -
SAW front heavy for reducing the upwards recoil (is this right?)...any way its for controlability
it is better to pin the enemy in a controled short burst rather than a full long burst... meaning you shot what you realy aim instead of spraying the area and hope it hit some thing ( but dont get me wrong ..i didnt say it is wrong in combat to shoot and spray like that like rambo, because the longer your enemy keep his head down the better)
im sure if your sargeant saw you spray the whole mag onto just one target paper he will smack you in the head and make you ran for 5 mile in combat gear. -
Hehe, I'm really proud of our Ultimax, too.Originally posted by justcooler:Hey chino65 mate, you are speaking to a person that know nuts about U100.
I would say that U100 is one of the best weapon developed by ST. Light, accurate and if you have spare barrel and lots of ammo, can perform quite a good support role.
Only down fall is the pentration power of 5.56 rounds, limits it's role as a firebase weapons.
What ever the matter, U100 and M203 remain my best choice of weapon in open area objective assault.
And I am seriously concerned what is gonna happen to it now that the clever powers-to-be decided to give the SAR-21 a different magazine system and forgot about the SAW.
However, Iike to point out one tricky fact about our Ultimax - it was designed by a famous American gun designer called Jim Sullivan whom was also one of the M16's designer! -
"From his work with Stoner on the M16, Sullivan moved to Singapore, to work on a new light machine gun for Chartered Industries, now known as Singapore Technologies. The outcome was the 5.56mm Ultimax light machine gun, noted by experts as one of the most manageable light machine guns in the world. The secret of its manageability is in SullivanÂ’s patented counter recoil mechanism, making the Ultimax not just a manageable full-automatic weapon, but a machine gun that can be aimed."
http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/issues/2001/Nov/Focus_on.htm -
correct me if i am wrong, but during my familiarisations with SAR21, we uses M16 mag and i notice that there are 2 holes on the mag for U100 catch. correct me if i am wrong.Originally posted by chino65:Hehe, I'm really proud of our Ultimax, too.
And I am seriously concerned what is gonna happen to it now that the clever powers-to-be decided to give the SAR-21 a different magazine system and forgot about the SAW.
However, Iike to point out one tricky fact about our Ultimax - it was designed by a famous American gun designer called Jim Sullivan whom was also one of the M16's designer!
Not forgetting, U100 is the second best weapon when it come to live firing; 3 full mags. GPMG is still the best...
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GPMG and SAW serve different purposes.... you can't have that many GPMG everywhere, every section..they are too heavy and immobile and will affect the mobility of the entire unit.
It is still the world's lightest SAW, but front-heavy due to barrel length.
There's no exaggeration when SAF claims it can be shoulder-fired. It really can, and very accurately.
The SAW is meant for automatic covering fire in a section. Very effective.
Those who say they are inaccurate must have never been to the army. The Ultimax, due to the longer barrel is much more powerful and accurate than the M-16.
The magazine it takes is the M-16-type modified with two holes on the side, it also accepts a 100-round drum magazine, which will be standard-issue in real operations. -
I was wondering since the recoil is negligible, why did the SAF bother to include the butt? I mean if we save up on the butt, the length of the weapon is shorter, thus making the user more mobile in cramp up alley, corridors, and the thick forst of SEA.........
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The 2 holes we know, but M16 mags for SAR21? Or am I misunderstanding something?Originally posted by justcooler:correct me if i am wrong, but during my familiarisations with SAR21, we uses M16 mag and i notice that there are 2 holes on the mag for U100 catch. correct me if i am wrong. -
It has low recoil, not negligible recoil.Originally posted by equlus84:I was wondering since the recoil is negligible, why did the SAF bother to include the butt? I mean if we save up on the butt, the length of the weapon is shorter, thus making the user more mobile in cramp up alley, corridors, and the thick forst of SEA.........
The butt is useful for stable aiming of a long weapon - negligible recoil or otherwise. -
Is there a U100 "para" version with retractable butt? Btw...any U100 gunners here? Care to share if when providing suppressive fire, you lay a few mags next to u so that you can provide a quick reload? Or do you do it the standard way?
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haha, glad ppl can correct me, i'm no SAW gunner, jus carried n fired it during sispec but thanks to u guys i learned something, after that i dun even see it anymore, off to be a scout..
Anyway, definitely not my fav weapon, y i say heavy? cos if u carry n run wif it full battle order in the afternoon n in the rain during every outfield in sispec when every session is a tekan session, its heavy in my point of view, its subjective... n YES, i do serve in the army... in an infantry battalion in case u r wondering..