How good is taiwan armed forces really?
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I think e problem with Taiwan is no its equipments or numbers but its tactic, have any1 seen their EX & u will know wat i mean
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amuse me.Originally posted by sgdiehard:taiwan armed forces need to be very very good, for their potential enemy is not only good but also large in number. relatively speaking, SAF don't need to be that good, you know what I mean.
but there is nothing to be ashamed of to learn from taiwan armed forces. we are also learning from Brunei, Australia, Thailand, india, and of course america and frence. We want to learn from Indonesia, but they are very humble and rejected us, scared we laugh at them. Wonder why we don't even try to learn from Malaysia? -
tough question.. how do you answer that? in front of you your commander orders you to accidentally nuke your own teritory...for the greater good..he says. Also he say ...dont worry your family in good hands...wink winkOriginally posted by coolant:One simple question: if u happen to be the commander in charge of the Nuke, will u nuke ur own territory or not?! -
It amuses me how many of ignorant pple who thought we are being trained or taught by the Taiwanese...these people either never been to the army, or are really the cannot make it chao keng peng.
99.99% of our training overseas are actually exercises for our troops, 100% our own pple, own programme, just borrow the land.
We do "learn", through the 0.01% of bilateral friendly exercises and special courses conducted by our allies, but its not to really get training. -
whoaaa.....99.99%.....
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Totally agree. Have seen their training close up and talked to their junior commanders ( PCs, sgts etc).Originally posted by spartan6:I think e problem with Taiwan is no its equipments or numbers but its tactic, have any1 seen their EX & u will know wat i mean
They are quite old fashioned in their approach but on the other hand, their treatment of their troops is still quite brutal and it appears that safety is not a major concern. Maybe that hardens the typical Taiwanese soldier. THis was my observations of them.
Their observations of us.... they saw us on Starlight exercises. Mostly company and below movements. Some of their ignorant junior commanders asked me if we practised " guerilla warfare" in Singapore. THe reason is that they see us using small formations during exercises.
Can't blame them as a few of them were observers to my section plus of enemy simulators ambushing a company convoy from a hill slope !!!! On another exercise, they saw a platoon conducting a raid on a simulated mortar fire base of battery strength ! -
their professional knowledge abit limited by a number of factors la....
They have limited exposure to modern armies' doctrines and fighting methods.
Their "NSF" full-time training is also much shorter with less types of training than the average SAF soldier. Their "ICT" is even much lesser.
They rarely have callups and mobs...they are more of depending on their limited-training "NSF" and regulars to form a fighting force, and they have limited training and experience. -
oh boy that means they are going to be crush by the comunist like fly...but the PLA were in worst condition? or is it not?
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PLA's disadvantage is relatively lower tech, primitive methods, predictable Russian-influenced doctrines.
Their pros are HUGE HUGE number, enough to chiong many planes just to shoot down one ROC Mirage of F-16....enough to chiong beachhead wif big sacrifice.
Their weapon systems are also quite powerful in terms of brute force...long range, high payload....their technology is going up really fast though, missiles targetting getting more and more accurate.
*above is just my own viewpoint from observations and readings, does not reflect views of any organisation* -
PLA's disadvantage is relatively lower tech, primitive methods, predictable Russian-influenced doctrines.
If it was 10 years ago, I would fully agree upon your view, but as many things else, when you attempt to assesses the ChinaÂ’s development in recent years, you have to update much more frequently.
ROC navyÂ’s most modern surface platform is the four 1970s built Spruance class (DDG993) Kidd class, although itÂ’s NTU upgraded to equip with SM-2 BlkIII & Harpoon, the SM-2s are still not Vertical launched like MK41 VLS does. On the contrary, PLAN new deploys a whole range of modern surface ships.
letÂ’s start with the four 8,000-ton Sovremenny-class destroyers with SS-N-22 Sunburn
Then PLAN has 2 type 052B DDG with C803 AshM and SA-N-12 SAMs:
There’re also AESA equipped, dubbed as “red Aegis” Type 052C DDGs with 4 face Phased arrayed Radar and 48 HQ-9A theater defense VLS over a range of 120kms
almost forget the Type 051C DDG with Russian made Rif-M ( Naval version of S-300) VLed theater air defense system
Then thereÂ’re also type 054A FFGs with 32 HQ-16 vertical launched middle range air defense system, 12 of this class will be built till 2009, now 4 already entered sea trail.
Of course, there are also dozens of FFGs like Type053 FFGwith point air defense only which may fall into your “low Technology” category, but unfortunately, Taiwan does no better, as their only modern FFG “tiandan” grade is also with only the point defense system.
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a184/Military_Pictures/053withZ-8.jpg
If comparing Submarines, there’re also a far cry between Taiwan & China, PLAN has 12 Kilo and similar numbers of modern quiet SSKs like “Song” & “Yuan” grades, What Taiwan got, WWII Submarines which you think is “high tech”? How about SSN, PLAN has at least 2 old 091 SSN and 2 new 093 SSN plus at least 1 aged 092 SSBN and 1 modern 094 SSBNTheir pros are HUGE HUGE number, enough to chiong many planes just to shoot down one ROC Mirage of F-16....enough to chiong beachhead wif big sacrifice.
You are the one “chiong”here without elaborate how the 300 strong PLAAF Flankers considered big sacrifice when facing ROCAF’s F-16s, PLAAF also introduced J10 air superior fighter jets. According to Pentagon, J-10 is more comparable to Euro Rafale & Typhoon than F-16 C/Ds,http://www.afa.org/magazine/July2006/0706watch.asp
DOD seemed to offer a re-assessment of the capabilities of China’s F-10 fighter, which it previously had compared to the F-16 Block 30. (See “Washington Watch: Chinese Military Is Catching Up—Fast,” September 2005, p. 12.) In this latest version of the annual China report, the Pentagon said the F-10 is probably more comparable to the Eurofighter Typhoon and French Rafale, considered among the top three fighters in the world today, after the US F-22A. The Pentagon expects more than 1,200 F-10s will be built, and improved versions—the F-10A and “Super-10”—are in advanced development. -
Fully agree with 38z
A lot of people just trying to use info half to 1 decade ago to guage PLA which is a fatal mistake!
Just to add on something, a lot of people seems to thought PLA all along trying to follow Russian doctrines which is not true. In fact,PLA modernisation is all along trying to emulate the American of fighting a limited and high tech modern warfare! PLA heavy invest in space technology and AEW is a clear indication of this US doctrines. Without GPS guidance ,satelite surveilance and ASAT abilities, u are just plain sitting duck when fighting war with major countries..... -
I think the Chinese know that they can't take down Taiwan militarily with Soviet Era tactics and doctrines. In terms of modernization process, they are just a few years away in matching the Taiwanese forces. And the Chinese honestly speaking, have better infrastructure to support further modernization. The Taiwanese on the other hand, usually rely on US tech transfers.
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WOO-HOO tat is 1 scarely ship(Type 051C DDG)
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True... overall PLA is a much more superior force and much more ready to take Taiwan..
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Tech Transfer? better still, usually such tech will sooner or later end up in PLA's hand and speed up Chinese own defense industries.Originally posted by Shotgun:... The Taiwanese on the other hand, usually rely on US tech transfers.
Guess what, even Taiwanese representative for U.S. defense contractor Lockheed Martin is a spy for mainland, Yanks are obviously cautious towards any tech transfer.
A Taiwanese businessman pleaded guilty Wednesday to acting as a covert agent for the Chinese government and trying to buy sophisticated military parts and weapons, including an F-16 fighter jet engine and cruise missiles. -
Originally posted by 38�Ž:
That is the sole reaon why US refuse Aegis system to be sold to ROC plus many more sophisticated weapon to be sold to Taiwan..
Tech Transfer? better still, usually such tech will sooner or later end up in PLA's hand and speed up Chinese own defense industries.
Guess what, even Taiwanese representative for U.S. defense contractor Lockheed Martin is a spy for mainland, Yanks are obviously cautious towards any tech transfer.
[b]A Taiwanese businessman pleaded guilty Wednesday to acting as a covert agent for the Chinese government and trying to buy sophisticated military parts and weapons, including an F-16 fighter jet engine and cruise missiles.
[/b] -
Originally posted by zenden9:
After the Vietnam War, in which the US Military had to make a hasty evacuation, there were many equipment left behind for the South Vietnamese Military that fell into the hands of Communist North Vietnam.
That is the sole reaon why US refuse Aegis system to be sold to ROC plus many more sophisticated weapon to be sold to Taiwan..
There remain more then 3,000 M-113A1 and hundreds of thousands of M-16, and field artillery pieces with a pile of ammunition for the various weapon platforms - all of which were abandoned by the South Vietnamese Military when the entire administration capitulated to the North Vietnamese forces.
After this debacle, the US will not trust any sophisticated technology to an unstable government that is in a direct confrontation area with a more superior adversary.
If ever the Taiwanese Administration and Military were to capitulate in the face of overwhelming forces from Mainland China, any high-tech equipment will simply fall into the hands of China.
It is safer for the US to hold on to these high tech platforms, it will be counter-productive to the current situation to give such equipment to the Taiwanese - as it will make the maverick Taiwanese politicians more belligerent towards Mainland China, and make a bad situation worse. -
For me, I prefer 052C DDG more as itssuperstructure is quite neat, totally without any Russian influence. Thanks to the 4 array Multi-functional Active phased array radar, there’re even no SPG-62 style Fire control radar spotted, indicating the 052C DDG probably utilizes an active radar guided SAM for theater defense. For comparison, Aster is such an Active radar guided SAM and SM-2 is still a Semi-active Radar guided SAM( which requires fire control radar SPG-62 for terminal illumination). The 4 array Active phased radar on board 052C will have enough “brutal” power to execute search, target tracking, as well as providing middle course guidance for the HQ-9A SAMs all in one. While ROCN’s most modern Kidd class DDG needs whole bunch of radars to do the same scope of job, SPS-48E, SPS-49 for air search and tracking, SPS-55 for surface search, SPG-51 for fire control.Originally posted by spartan6:WOO-HOO tat is 1 scarely ship(Type 051C DDG) 
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IF PLA going to cross the channel of course they are going to use their elite forces so they got to be good at attacking. While defending the island u have to decide where to position ur elite forces.
Can u imagine if a PLA elite forces of 18 - 20 yrs vs average of SAF 35 yrs of age reservist. what result do you expect?
PLA had just tested their BMS so i don't think they are low tech. -
I read this article some time ago when the SU 27 was about to be induce into their AF .. giving PRC long range strike capabliltyOriginally posted by seancannot:think prc did a study b 4 , before reaching ROC half of its troop will perish at the sea , PRC can overrun ROC eventually but with left then 10 % of their troop left -
imho, yes the PRC is gaining ground on taiwan quantitatively and qualitatively, however the PRC's forces have only seen conflict in Vietnam, Korea and the Chinese Civil War, as well as those border clashes with India, Russia (the Old Soviet Union), etc...
it is good for china to have a good deterrent capability against the americans and the ROC, but they still have at least quite a while to catch up with the Americans and the Western world in terms of Air Force and Navy technology, without relying on spying or the Israelis for that matter and they do have good Russian technology but look at what happened to Russia's old submarines.
The PRC is catching up within this decade, but face it, when it comes to an all out war for now, when the Americans have the British to back them up, with a combination of F22, F35 and Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft, as well as AWACS support, the PRC with their Sukhoi jets, J-10 and variants, as well old MIGs are still no match for the Air Forces of America and Britain together, and if Japan, South Korea and Australia come into the picture, the PLAAF will most likely stand no chance.
For the Navy, I believe if America uses at least 6 Aircraft Carrier Groups complete with their 6 battle groups, and together with the USAF and RAF and so on, the PLA Navy is in for a beating, even with all their anti-ship missiles, as the Americans have their Aegis Cruisers to defeat such missiles.
For the US Army, let's say they greatly increase their troop strength as well as find a solution to the Iraq occupation, I belief with America's MLRS, and all the 4 branches of the US Miltary working together in concert with the British and other major allied nations within NATO and Asia, the PRC is toast.
However, I believe the Taiwanese have the good sense to not provoke China anymore.
I would love to see something like Hong Kong where the SAR has a lot of autonomy, would it not benefit all sides, including the Western world?
Especially if the PRC and Russia join NATO or at least be close to the America and the West, no terrorist would dare attack any major nation anymore when you got the whole world's armed forces looking down at you...
Imagine the possibilities of the powers of the world together, there would be no poverty, no war and no hunger, consider the poor and malnourished, i really feel sad for them
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Hi all.
Joined the forum cuz i thought this thread was interesting..
anyways. here goes.
i think that if China attacks Taiwan, they will be able to take over the taiwan successfully.
1. Military of China is better than Taiwan(no diagreement there i believe.)
- More manpower, more missiles to shoot, etc. etc.
- Taiwan's US technology is not really modern US technology.. you guys know what i mean.
- dont underestimate chinese technology, they launched a man into space.
- heavy missile bombardment(china got alot of missiles) before attack to take out air defences and air bases of taiwan. (they know the location of most of them from their satallites. thats is, before the US takes them out. :lol
with first strike, China will have a significant (air)advantage over taiwan. and trust me, ships are useless without aircraft.
2. US will NOT help significantly in terms of military aid(which is critical), probably juz codemn china blah blah blah and shoot chinese satallites.
why?
- 1. American public is still will be suffering from war weariness from the iraq war. taiwan is not "their" war. no public support for it. furthermore, the US is still suffering a huge trillion dollar defecit from the iraq war and will be unlikely to spend more $.
- 2. US is heavily dependent on China for its economy. the US heavily imports chinese goods. alot of stuff in the US Made in China.
yea sure, the chinese companies will get pissed too, but rmb, china is still govern be a communist govt. *hint hint*
- 3. US may not have enough manpower to launch a full scale counter attack. they are already suffering from manpower shortages form the iraq war (they are already down to national guards iraq.. kinda like US reservist, which the US dont normally use.)
IMO, the war will last like, 7 days?
China will chiong to taipei and take over the government. Then the taiwan govt cannot coordinate counter attacks properly and stir up the populace for resistence against the chinese.
China will deploy ships/subs around the taiwan penisula to deter against possible counter attacks from the US. they'll lose, but juz to slow the US down so that they can establish their own form of govt there.
Also, the slowing down of US aid(if it ever comes), will cause morale to drop and result in the govt to probably capitulate, so as to minimize civilian casualties.
It goes unsaid that the chinese will suffer significant casualties, and obtain a phyrric victory, making them vulnerable to other attacks(say, the UN/EU).
However, it will take time before the US rallys support with the EU for a war against China, but Russia wont be making this easy(they are still pissed at US for the missile defence system that the US wants to put around them.)
but this probably will not be feasible, as the EU has to go/fly through Russia and Soviet Bloc counties to get to China. Russia still has a nice air force if you know what i mean.
So, after alot of heavily staged debates and toungue slashing in the UN, China will retain control of Taiwan but may allow Taiwan to have a status similar to that of HK. (one country, two governments.)
Anyways. Just my 2cents.
Long post. Thanks to all of you that read through it(if any). -
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Kid, you have to understand that US will not commit into a china - taiwan war unless the the benefits of committing is much better then watching as a bystander.Originally posted by fonduelazone:imho, yes the PRC is gaining ground on taiwan quantitatively and qualitatively, however the PRC's forces have only seen conflict in Vietnam, Korea and the Chinese Civil War, as well as those border clashes with India, Russia (the Old Soviet Union), etc...
it is good for china to have a good deterrent capability against the americans and the ROC, but they still have at least quite a while to catch up with the Americans and the Western world in terms of Air Force and Navy technology, without relying on spying or the Israelis for that matter and they do have good Russian technology but look at what happened to Russia's old submarines.
The PRC is catching up within this decade, but face it, when it comes to an all out war for now, when the Americans have the British to back them up, with a combination of F22, F35 and Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft, as well as AWACS support, the PRC with their Sukhoi jets, J-10 and variants, as well old MIGs are still no match for the Air Forces of America and Britain together, and if Japan, South Korea and Australia come into the picture, the PLAAF will most likely stand no chance.
For the Navy, I believe if America uses at least 6 Aircraft Carrier Groups complete with their 6 battle groups, and together with the USAF and RAF and so on, the PLA Navy is in for a beating, even with all their anti-ship missiles, as the Americans have their Aegis Cruisers to defeat such missiles.
For the US Army, let's say they greatly increase their troop strength as well as find a solution to the Iraq occupation, I belief with America's MLRS, and all the 4 branches of the US Miltary working together in concert with the British and other major allied nations within NATO and Asia, the PRC is toast.
However, I believe the Taiwanese have the good sense to not provoke China anymore.
I would love to see something like Hong Kong where the SAR has a lot of autonomy, would it not benefit all sides, including the Western world?
Especially if the PRC and Russia join NATO or at least be close to the America and the West, no terrorist would dare attack any major nation anymore when you got the whole world's armed forces looking down at you...
Imagine the possibilities of the powers of the world together, there would be no poverty, no war and no hunger, consider the poor and malnourished, i really feel sad for them
But on their hand, US will be playing a spoilting role in the reunification. i believe that japan and south koera will play a more active role in the war against china -
Of course there are things at stake for the US for them to consider direct military intervention in such a conflict.Originally posted by justcooler:Kid, you have to understand that US will not commit into a china - taiwan war unless the the benefits of committing is much better then watching as a bystander.
The US is de facto boss of the region with Japan, S. Korea and Taiwan being client states. These countries are strategically, militarily as well as economically important to US.
They represent US's hold on the region and a stumbling block on China's doorstep.
Remember that beyond these countries is the Pacific ocean, and beyond that is the USA mainland.
Losing Taiwan without the US lifting a finger to help would be the end of US role as the dominant world power. Countries previously loyal to US in Asia will all be thinking about switching allegiance and US will lose even more from this fallout militarily, strategically and economically.Originally posted by justcooler:
Did they really?
But on their hand, US will be playing a spoilting role in the reunification.
I could be wrong but the US is against Taiwanese independence especially if it triggers a war. It is not a war US wants to fight now or in the near future. But because of their past obligations they have to get involved.Originally posted by justcooler:
That's an inaccurate assumption.
i believe that japan and south koera will play a more active role in the war against china
Not everyone is keen to make a war bigger than it has to be. Korea and Japan have absolutely NOTHING to gain and everything to lose by taking part.
And the US may not want S Korea to take part cos that will likely open another front with the N Koreans jumping in. The US can't handle that, and S Korea is surely not keen to fight the North again/yet. So S Korea will have to stay uninvolved just to keep the Korean Peninsula stable.
Japan may also just play some passive role than risk being involved. Neither countries have an official pact to defend Taiwan, besides.
American allies will come likely in the form of faraway countries whose involvement in this region will not spread the conflilct. The usual suspects like Britain, Australia, other Europeans etc.
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In spite of China's rapid advances they cannot overtake a country that's been the dominant world power since before any of us here were born. (1945, if you need a date.)
US is well-equipped for this kind of "shock and awe" high tech action. And destroying enemy's conventional war-making ability is, unfortunately for China - the US's house specialty.
It is the niggly kind of COIN action that the US has no patience for.
The US strategic goal will be a ceasefire political settlement. Its military goal will be to destroy as much PLA equipment as possible.
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More likely, any hostile actions may just start and stop with China retaking or trying to retake the Nationalist islands of Quemoy, which is extremely close to China mainland and a bloody pain.
Such an action PLA will win easily. Great for publicity and also as a demonstration to the Taiwanese to think twice. Such a gamble is also less likely to spur direct US military action and may upset enough Taiwanese to rethink the pro-independence stance.
Going across the Straits to Taiwan Island will be a political and economic disaster for China even if it wins. If it loses, it will be a military catastrophe and all that this entails.
I am pro-reunification, peaceful of course. It is the only way that both countries can benefit out of this sillyness.
