How good is taiwan armed forces really?
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How good this taiwan army and most of us are comparing to sg and PRC army. in term of technology.
How about how good are their training and how motivated are tawian troops. Look at the vet war. US are technology superior and yet had to make a run home.
And how about in the time of war with main land, how many of the taiwan divisions would not even fire a single shot. not because of courage but some leaders may think that taiwan is a part of china. And resisting is futile.
what do rest of you all think -
Oh you've migrated eh? Well let's ASSUME that's true. You still have family & relatives here don't you? Oh wait. Doesn't matter about them right? If there really is war, its their fault for not migrating. Your arse is safe elsewhere & that's all that matters.Originally posted by Coquitlam:I've already migrated loser..and they welcomed me with open arms...not like here...saddled with so much burdens like NS and annuities....like I said...thos who leave, its our choice....besides, we all come from migrant stock...so we just keep on moving....there will be those that want to respect that and I respect that..
besides, thousands of ex sillyporeans are already settled in, working hard and anjoying life, thank u 
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Sure you're but has it ever cross your mind to consider what is widely known before shooting off like that?If you've got nothing constructive then please, for the sake of those who are genuinely interested, stop messing up the threads.Originally posted by Coquitlam:Ridiculous? well I'm entitled to my view and so are you...no one's stopping you from patriotic but frankly....many of us would not give saf a chance at all in war...but sure, you can go on being optimistic...saf needs people like you....just like how uncle sam needs loyal yankees....uncle lee needs people like u...no harm actually...see you do all the fighting and sweating -
Coquitlam,
guo jie lao shu, ren ren han da.
Military Nuts is where intelligent people exchange information and knowledge with analytical mind and integrity. No place for rats like you lah, go back to your little nest in the little speaker corner. -
I wonder how is ROC training in comparison to SAF? Anyone happen to witness their training and their standards while training in ROC?
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Can one pass judgment on the effectiveness an army simply from the training of its personnel ?
The effectiveness of an army can only be judge by the efficiency and effectiveness in the manner that it prepares for the type of war that it will have to face.
The Taiwanese Military can either sit and wait for the outbreak of war; or like the Israelis, it can initiate war itself by a pre-emptive strike across the Taiwan Straits on all the concentration of military hardware and personnel and will have to find a final end-game strategy to terminate the war without losing any advantage that is has made available to itself.
Will the Taiwanese Military have the capacity and wherewithall to cross the Taiwan Straits and bring the battle onto mainland soil instead of China to overwhelm its defenses and resources by fighting and defending itself in the limited battle space of its island ?
Taiwan will have to plan a strategy similar to the Israelis Six-Day War Campaign, to overwhelm and win a War based on events and circumstance that they create and control.
Once the Taiwanese lose this control and the momentum of the War, and leave the initiative to the PLA - it is as good as fighting a defensive and losing war at each line of defense.
The Winner will take All, the loser is left with nothing.
It is the war prepared and fought by the Political and Military Leadership - the foot soldiers have only a limited influence to its outcome. -
Conquitlam:
I've never really replied to you before despite seeing all your post. I understand that you've migrated out of Singapore, and that is really fine with most of us. Even if you've dropped your Singaporean citizenship, you're still welcomed to post here and speak freely. However, your replies tend to offend us with that "mightier than thou" attitude.
If you've migrated, thats fine. But don't speak to us like we are idiots for staying in Singapore. We have our own emotional attachments to this place that we are born in. Singapore ain't perfect and theres still lots to improve on freedom of speech and expression, and I'm sure we will continue to work on that. For a young nation to have gotten this far, I think we're doing pretty good. So be a lil "merciful" with your anti-Singapore remarks and more objective with your comments. -
Pre-emptive strike will only give PLA the legal justification option to launch full scale attack on Taiwan. And Taiwan cannot even gain a sympathy from even US. PRC is no arab nation that can be easily overrun and staking a surprise attack easily. Especially ,PRC is a space power recognise nation. Space surveilance satelite can easily track ROC large scale miitary movement..Originally posted by Atobe:Can one pass judgment on the effectiveness an army simply from the training of its personnel ?
The effectiveness of an army can only be judge by the efficiency and effectiveness in the manner that it prepares for the type of war that it will have to face.
[color=red]The Taiwanese Military can either sit and wait for the outbreak of war; or like the Israelis, it can initiate war itself by a pre-emptive strike across the Taiwan Straits on all the concentration of military hardware and personnel and will have to find a final end-game strategy to terminate the war without losing any advantage that is has made available to itself.
Will the Taiwanese Military have the capacity and wherewithall to cross the Taiwan Straits and bring the battle onto mainland soil instead of China to overwhelm its defenses and resources by fighting and defending itself in the limited battle space of its island ?
Taiwan will have to plan a strategy similar to the Israelis Six-Day War Campaign, to overwhelm and win a War based on events and circumstance that they create and control.
Once the Taiwanese lose this control and the momentum of the War, and leave the initiative to the PLA - it is as good as fighting a defensive and losing war at each line of defense.
The Winner will take All, the loser is left with nothing.
It is the war prepared and fought by the Political and Military Leadership - the foot soldiers have only a limited influence to its outcome.
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Bring war to mainland China is even more unthinkable. First ,ROC navy lacks enough amphibious force to land enough battalion to support a decent attack. Plus PLA is so huge and most forces concentrated around Taiwan are elite forces including marines and ariborne mechanised units. I bet ROC army will be crushed in few seconds , shall they land on Mainland China and even suit PLA. As their strong point is their army!
The only way for ROC to win is to survive PLA onslaught for at least 4 days if not,anything looks dimmed for ROC.. -
You, my friend, have no inkling what's 130 KM of open water is like to a military operation. I have heard of people swimming from johore to singapore. From France to England. Have you ever heard of someone swimming from China to Taiwan? (Maybe there is a RARE superman) 130Km of open water is no walk in the park.Originally posted by zenden9:Open ocean? I thought it is a strait. Where got Ocean? While breaching can be quite predictable. Airborne troops will give element of surprise. 130km away prove much easy for helo and transport plane to land troops in critical area. I bet it will be a blitzreig Style, with highly train commando airborne and take over critical commanding centre, follow by breaching units of heavy armour..
Regarding Air transport. You must understand it's NOT easy to maintain a -slow flying aircraft - a few metres above waters. The's wind, water, birds. If you fly high in the sky you will be shot down no kidding. PLAAF has stealth transports! A first in the world.!
Blitzkrieg worked over LAND. You cannot surge forces over 130km without ample notice/warnings. PLAN has nuclearpowered underwater transports?
Trained commandos taking over critical commanding centres is a possibility. 100% success & 100% containment? I think not. SUSTAINED occupation of command centres? I think not! Better off destroying the place with bunker busting equipments.
Yeah i know PLA Heavy Armour can fly and teleport themselves across 130 Km of water.
Please do some research beforehand. Thanks.
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The Chinese have been openly training amphibious exercises for a while. The only limiting factor is having enough transports to land sufficient firepower on Taiwan.Originally posted by CM06:You, my friend, have no inkling what's 130 KM of open water is like to a military operation. I have heard of people swimming from johore to singapore. From France to England. Have you ever heard of someone swimming from China to Taiwan? (Maybe there is a RARE superman) 130Km of open water is no walk in the park.
Regarding Air transport. You must understand it's NOT easy to maintain a -slow flying aircraft - a few metres above waters. The's wind, water, birds. If you fly high in the sky you will be shot down no kidding. PLAAF has stealth transports! A first in the world.!
Blitzkrieg worked over LAND. You cannot surge forces over 130km without ample notice/warnings. PLAN has nuclearpowered underwater transports?
Trained commandos taking over critical commanding centres is a possibility. 100% success & 100% containment? I think not. SUSTAINED occupation of command centres? I think not! Better off destroying the place with bunker busting equipments.
Yeah i know PLA Heavy Armour can fly and teleport themselves across 130 Km of water.
Please do some research beforehand. Thanks.
Contesting the transports and their escorts would be US Navy Submarines (operating without acknowledgment from the US yet), Maritime Strike aircraft, as well as AShM.
In terms of controlling airspace, the Taiwanese could actually find themselves outnumbered by Flankers and J10s, and perhaps even a little outclassed until their Block 50 deal goes through.
In the waters, they are expanding their submarine fleets with more Kilos, Songs, and Yuans. They do fully anticipate severe submarine warfare around the Straits. What they are perhaps lacking would be the anti-air warfare ships to guard their transports from anti-ship missiles. However, the Chinese claim to be in the midst of RnD to develop more capable missile technology in this area.
Whether China can successfully invade Taiwan would depend on its capability to create an air-sea shield around their amphibious assets until Taiwan's shores. With US Carrier battle groups around, such a shield would be severely tested. -
To CM06... Who is the one needing research before hand? WHat Shotgun provides is the latest update of PLA military stands. I bet u are using half a decades ago info to gauge PLA standard by now.. Do u know PLA military is advancing quite fast. Some 2-3yrs old datas of PLA were completely outdated by now! Go China forum defense to keep yrself update,ok?Originally posted by Shotgun:The Chinese have been openly training amphibious exercises for a while. The only limiting factor is having enough transports to land sufficient firepower on Taiwan.
Contesting the transports and their escorts would be US Navy Submarines (operating without acknowledgment from the US yet), Maritime Strike aircraft, as well as AShM.
In terms of controlling airspace, the Taiwanese could actually find themselves outnumbered by Flankers and J10s, and perhaps even a little outclassed until their Block 50 deal goes through.
In the waters, they are expanding their submarine fleets with more Kilos, Songs, and Yuans. They do fully anticipate severe submarine warfare around the Straits. What they are perhaps lacking would be the anti-air warfare ships to guard their transports from anti-ship missiles. However, the Chinese claim to be in the midst of RnD to develop more capable missile technology in this area.
Whether China can successfully invade Taiwan would depend on its capability to create an air-sea shield around their amphibious assets until Taiwan's shores. With US Carrier battle groups around, such a shield would be severely tested.
As for Shotgun access of PLA amphibous capabilites, we have to take into account many civil transport ships which can be quickly employ by PLAN to suppor their operations. All these remains a secret But It seems PLAN has stopped producing amphibious craft after the Yuting II for some time...
My bet is they are quite confident,they can bring enough firepower and amour across the straits to take over Taiwan.. -
It's already very obvious who the loser is here. For someone who claims to have cut ties altogether, he seems so much insecure that he has to come in here ot diss the rest of us just to make himself feel good. I have yet to see him give anything CONSTRUCTIVE in this forum other than his usual snide smart-alec remarks.Originally posted by Coquitlam:I've already migrated loser..and they welcomed me with open arms...not like here...saddled with so much burdens like NS and annuities....like I said...thos who leave, its our choice....besides, we all come from migrant stock...so we just keep on moving....there will be those that want to respect that and I respect that.. besides, thousands of ex sillyporeans are already settled in, working hard and anjoying life, thank u
Back to the topic, the ROC forces are in the same line as the SAF in that both are conscript forces although they have a disadvantage in their military hardware due to the pressure from the PRC. Even with that disadvantage, they still have the capability to give the PRC forces a real bloody nose before they get overwhelmed. All this assuming the US fleet doesn't intervene. But I guess its all down to the geopolitical situation then. -
The onus is always on the aggressor in an attack to successful be able to complete their objective.
Zenden,
And you bet wrong. I never mention how -bad- China was. I'm saying it's very very difficult. The difficulty being the 130km of open water. Which i have explained.
I am current and know how fast china is catching up with the west in terms of up to date AND future technology. Still there are always the basics that can hinder even the most advance dragons.
I'm very impressed by Shotgun's take on the matter. He is entirely correct on the issue. He did not however said that an attack will be successful. He said. the success will depend on how effective the air-sea shield is.
The air sea shield is very very impressive. Out number - out manouveur and probably out weaponed. I never mentioned that the Taiwanese airforce or navy will emerge victorious, i doubt that in actual fact. Still, SAMs and SSMs are going to be big difficulty.
Here's some of the problems that China will face that technology (will not?) solve.
PLAN transports are going to face a dirtied shored. PLA Army is going to face a dirtied terrain with LBs pretargetted by MLRS and artillery.
Disorderly and uncoordinated disembarkment of troops will hamper and delay troop deployment that allows Taiwanese to counterattack(Seen the cute M60s doing their firing practises? I dont know how effective that is frankly. I would have prefer using missiles and rockets)
Ships and planes will arrive at different timings even if they leave at the same timing as attacks will cause transports to manevour away.
Lack of supplies will hamstring the offensive within 72 hours of the operation.
How far can China go in 72 hours of delay battles and ground offense that's a problem Taiwan has to create and China has to prevent.
China would need friendly skies to aid their assault while Taiwan need only neutral skies to grind them to a halt.
If China is able to overcome the initial phase and establish control over decent port and airport facilites, the battle of Taiwan will be lost.
Please dont compare how much china has in secret. Every nation has secrets. It's not how much and how powerful these secrets are , but when and where will they be employed that makes the most difference.
TO sum it up, It's like a modern day D-Day for China and should it happen will be a great tactical and strategic study subject for decades to come by military personnel.
It is in my wish that the option of FORCE be not used over this matter and that Taiwan's sovereignty issue be resolved peacefully. -
Actually, you just need to surf a few websites. No special access whatsoever.Originally posted by zenden9:To CM06... Who is the one needing research before hand? WHat Shotgun provides is the latest update of PLA military stands. I bet u are using half a decades ago info to gauge PLA standard by now.. Do u know PLA military is advancing quite fast. Some 2-3yrs old datas of PLA were completely outdated by now! Go China forum defense to keep yrself update,ok?
As for Shotgun access of PLA amphibous capabilites, we have to take into account many civil transport ships which can be quickly employ by PLAN to suppor their operations. All these remains a secret But It seems PLAN has stopped producing amphibious craft after the Yuting II for some time...
My bet is they are quite confident,they can bring enough firepower and amour across the straits to take over Taiwan..
The name of the game hasn't changed since Operation Overlord. Protect your transports, secure beachhead, capture ports. Special Operations should only be used to support these actions, eg, cutting off communications, demolishing bridges etc. There hasn't been that many amphibious invasions since WW2 actually, so don't expect the concept to differ too much.
I think the technology just makes the effort a lot more bloodier for the side thats less prepared. Fail to develop a good anti-air/missile system, you lose ships, men, and material.
Anyway, invasion aside. There has to be some strategic objective to invade Taiwan. Would it be to occupy Taiwan in its entirety? Or would it simply to capture the center of Taiwan's government? And what effects would it have even if they were successful against a majority people who want to be independent? (Actually, I am more inclined to believe they prefer and enjoy the status quo) -
ignore this lam par guy. he's saying is basing on nothing but his lam par.Originally posted by Coquitlam:I would say Taiwan's military would be better than Sillypore's -
Man that was a damn old report !!!Originally posted by seancannot:got la do some search on internet u can find , they got project hundred aircraft dog fight at strait and thousand of ship /boat crossing , think PRC still poor in long range projection the report said
It was done at a time when China have mostly mig-21 & mig-23 (limited range) only while taiwan have new f-16 & mirage !!! also that time china have not build up their amphibious capabilities.
That was way anicent times ..... since thant the wind direction have change, while the taiwan happy watching their equipment grow old, the china have new Su-27s and su-30s and with new build airbases nearer to coast, they now can easily give taiwan shit .... Also china been building up their amphibious capabilities, thus the tide have change a lot since that old report. -
I don't think so. Taiwanese artillery doctrine is not impressed thou they do have bigger caliber gun than S'g, CP is station too front away the bty, command control is an issue.Originally posted by Manager433:The taiwanese are good. At least I have seen how their artillery troops are being train and 'tekan'. Have you ever see a soldier carrying a 155mm dummy round and run round the parade square in Sinkieland b4?
Had a chance to train together w their Marine troop, no doubt that they physical fitness is much better than S'g “well fare” troop but in term of basis infrastructure eqp is not equip to cope with the fighting scenario, limited resource of communicating w other combine arm, more or lese be a lone.
Reservist training is almost none at all, basically is doctrine & weapon update and no filed training to refresh at all. Doubt is useful to use as a front line fighting trooper.
“Tekan” not only in ROC but in S’g as well. We did tekan by manhandle & display the M71 155mm gun(9 ton) with only 7 gunners about 1 km away without any mechanical device help. -
well....lets just say that I'm not in favor of the system, so anything I say that may infer inferiority refers to the system, not the people...I have no quarrel with the people, the food etc....remember, you mentioned 'mightier than thou' and terms like 'idiot'Originally posted by Shotgun:Conquitlam:
I've never really replied to you before despite seeing all your post. I understand that you've migrated out of Singapore, and that is really fine with most of us. Even if you've dropped your Singaporean citizenship, you're still welcomed to post here and speak freely. However, your replies tend to offend us with that "mightier than thou" attitude.
If you've migrated, thats fine. But don't speak to us like we are idiots for staying in Singapore. We have our own emotional attachments to this place that we are born in. Singapore ain't perfect and theres still lots to improve on freedom of speech and expression, and I'm sure we will continue to work on that. For a young nation to have gotten this far, I think we're doing pretty good. So be a lil "merciful" with your anti-Singapore remarks and more objective with your comments. -
Originally posted by Obersturmfuhrer:It's already very obvious who the loser is here. For someone who claims to have cut ties altogether, he seems so much insecure that he has to come in here ot diss the rest of us just to make himself feel good. I have yet to see him give anything CONSTRUCTIVE in this forum other than his usual snide smart-alec remarks.
Back to the topic, the ROC forces are in the same line as the SAF in that both are conscript forces although they have a disadvantage in their military hardware due to the pressure from the PRC. Even with that disadvantage, they still have the capability to give the PRC forces a real bloody nose before they get overwhelmed. All this assuming the US fleet doesn't intervene. But I guess its all down to the geopolitical situation then. -
okieOriginally posted by sgdiehard:Coquitlam,
guo jie lao shu, ren ren han da.
Military Nuts is where intelligent people exchange information and knowledge with analytical mind and integrity. No place for rats like you lah, go back to your little nest in the little speaker corner. I go to my little corner..and you can die harder for sillypore ok -
Imagine if PRC tunneled to Taiwan. Hope they have seismic detection system. Or else....
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Your points are indisputable. My piece posted was to provoke some deep re-active thinking then the simple objective of this thread.Originally posted by zenden9:Pre-emptive strike will only give PLA the legal justification option to launch full scale attack on Taiwan. And Taiwan cannot even gain a sympathy from even US. PRC is no arab nation that can be easily overrun and staking a surprise attack easily. Especially ,PRC is a space power recognise nation. Space surveilance satelite can easily track ROC large scale miitary movement..
Bring war to mainland China is even more unthinkable. First ,ROC navy lacks enough amphibious force to land enough battalion to support a decent attack. Plus PLA is so huge and most forces concentrated around Taiwan are elite forces including marines and ariborne mechanised units. I bet ROC army will be crushed in few seconds , shall they land on Mainland China and even suit PLA. As their strong point is their army!
The only way for ROC to win is to survive PLA onslaught for at least 4 days if not,anything looks dimmed for ROC..
In the present state of China's global stature, Taiwan will not have the moral support of the Global Community if it initiate a pre-emptive strike at PLA assets on the mainland
As mentioned in my post, for Taiwan to realistically win in this outcome it will need to have a strong political and military leadership to create a master plan that will allow it to overwhelm the PLA in a first and pre-emptive strike, and all the resources that it can muster to bring such a move to a successful conclusion to allow political negotiations to take place from at least a more balanced position.
Can Taiwan ever produce and muster such a poltical and military possibility ?
If Taiwan cannot even create such an outcome, its next best alternative is the weaker one - that will require itself to prepare to be a ''poison prawn'' - similar to Singapore's strategy.
Taiwan will need to create the impression of the high cost that an aggressor have to bear both militarily and economically if an attack is envisioned.
On the balance, the Taiwanese and Chinese military are near equal in terms of training and equipment. Technologically, China may have a slight edge with its bigger, unrestricted budget, and near unrestricted access to technology compared to Taiwan. However, can the PLA have the capacity to absorb and utilise technology as effectively as the military of other advanced western nations.
On balance, the reality is that - numerically, the Taiwanese military is overwhelmingly outnumbered by the PLA.
If all the Taiwanese military can do is only to wait for PLA to initiate attack, Taiwan's weakness will be totally exposed in a 'Defense Only strategy' - waiting to absorb the destructive punches from waves of missiles, aerial and amphibious assualt assets.
Taiwan cannot depend entirely on a strategy to simply sit tight and absorb the initial and subsequent attacking waves over any period of time, but will need to have the capacity to initiate a counter-punch that will need to be similarly devastating to the entire economic and social infrastructure of Mainland China - as China's attack will have destroyed the entire economic and social infrastructure of Taiwan already.
Its destructive ability to launch a counter-strke across a wide spectrum of economic and social infrastructural assets on the mainland will have to take on a highly publicised profile - so that the Political and Military leadership on the Mainland will not make any miscalculation if the Mainland decide to embark on a military solution.
Hopefully, this threat of total armaggeddon - in total mutual destruction - will help to prevent war across the Straits of Taiwan; as in the balanced threat of total mutual destruction between the super powers had prevented war from occurring for the last fifty years. -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ljt0IhXjXOU
PLA Air Force planes lock Taiwan President Chen Shui-bian's plane -
Good to know you can be humbled. Lets sit back and read the argument on how good TAF really is.Originally posted by Coquitlam:okie I go to my little corner..and you can die harder for sillypore ok -
An amphibious landing is always a possibility...but at the current state of world affairs...it is highly unlikely
To be honest, i think that in order for the PRC to succeed in an invasion through amphibious means, they will have to bleed tons of man to succeed..PRC is no longer like the PRC of 50yrs back when it assisted Allies through troops during the Korean and Vietnam war....an invasion would most likely mean that the economical and reputation growth it had nurtured for the past 30yrs would be wiped out..the PRC leadership corp would not be so dumb as to sacrifice all these for a rouge province. Even if they have succeeded, they would most probably face a pretty divided province that would cause more trouble than benefit...we might see ROC becoming another Iraq for the PLA. Besides tat, we tend to underestimate the military strength of ROC, although i must say tt through my knowledge, morale among the ROC army is not high...
China is using their economical and diplomatic might to squeeze the balls of ROC slowly into submission knowing tt warfare is not a global trend anymore. There's a saying ..... Shi Jie Chao Liu Hao Hao Dang Dang, Shun Zi Ze Chang, Ni Zi Ze Wang...and i tink tt the PRC leaders acknowledges tt