SG buy satellite guided Himars rockets
-
A bolt action rifle could kill anyone too, but it has slow rate of fire, heavy etc as compare to modern assualt rifle , that is why they are obsolete as a standard infantry weapon, likewise when guided rocket system is introduced, the unguided is going toward obsolescent as well.Originally posted by ferryman2393:now u seem to have some respect for the ASTROSS. u claimed somewhere that above 40km, unguided rocket system like ASTROSS is what? tactically useless? u also made a calculation that at 89 kilometre, a rocket of 1% CEP be off target more than 3 km? and if the ASTROSS rumor is correct, its rocket have the potential of being what? 10 km off target? correct me if i'm wrong. LOL....man...
As for for tactical useless at above 40km, it was reference to an article written by a Russian defence scientist who said and I quote:
I claim again?!?Firing small- and large-caliber rockets featuring traditional aeroballistic configurations and with mean deviations from the target of about ~1%X of the firing range and a consistency of up to 1/150 becomes ineffective at a range in excess of 40 km.[/quote]
All links and quotes could be found here:
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=65643&page=0
As for all calulation abt CEP could be here:
http://members.tripod.com/~nigelef/errorsmistakes.htm
Everything I posted are based on experts and facts, the above may be too "chim" for you, afterall you have not shown any intelligent here, all you are good at is posting poo from your a$$hole!!!Originally posted by ferryman2393:
now, for a precision weapon system like HIMARS which u claim can land its rockets within 5 metre of a pin point at its stated range of 70 kilometres, why worry if u can keep on 'sniping' whilst at the same time see the opponents counter artillery had a good aim but see their rounds fell everywhere but the target.
BTW, have u considered that guided weapon systems are good as long as its guidence remain intact? a bad weather and all of a sudden ur GPS go bonkers. u may see ur rockets exploded in bintan instead of batam...
Do you do any reading at all???
Of course not , all you know is to post poo, GPS guided system has yield a CEP 5~10m, that is proven fact!!!
Here the article:
[quote]GMLRS is the result of a cooperative Engineering and Manufacturing Development (EMD) program with the United Kingdom, Germany, France and Italy to develop a new guided rocket for the Multiple Launch Rocket System. The rocket, known as the M30 GMLRS, has increased range (to 42 miles/ 70 km), accuracy (to 5m CEP) and lethality (unitary 196 lb. warhead option).
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/508m-for-gmlrs-smart-rockets-0765You again shown your ignorant, as I said that NSFS is risking not only the launchers and crew but the ship as well, and for naval operation , it is usually operate as a fleet i.e. a number of ships, why the hell one want to risks the entire fleet for NSFS when one could get something like LORA,EXTRA etc that could give a standoff distance????
Here a very old article abt NSFS, and that time , the author at the time already thinking of getting ATACM to be used for NSFS.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1993/MCT.htm
Next thing GPS guided system affected by weather???
You again shown your ignorant, read this:GPS is unaffected by weather conditions................
Your entire posting are full of ignorant comments and becos you dun do any reading and research, you have proven again and again as a total ignorant in term of military knowledge, so dun make any claims or assumptions until you did some homework, you have become a laughing stock in WAFF and now here!!!!
http://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~wilkins/writing/Samples/policy/mccollum.html
Edited :for link problem. -
GPS guidance affected by bad weather? Thats a good one.
-
well... i suppose to some people, 'bad weather' only relates to rain, clouds, mist, storm, snow, hail, sleet....
wanna have another go? -
Firing small- and large-caliber rockets featuring traditional aeroballistic
wait dude...this meant totally traditional way of calculation.... there were already a solution for this. The american design a computer calculation which also take the climatic, wind , air density and what not..to increase hit probability. Also in such way a modern unguided weapon have a better stabilizer.
the problem of firing unguided rocket using manual calculation and only aerobalistic characteristic is a classic problems, there is no doubt about that. It also means weaponologist around the world were hell bent in solving it.
so right now the zenith of MLRS were Himars...a branch of solution that spurt out base on the problems that you point out Gary. Yet that doesnt mean the previous solution were less dangerous.
Infact if the GPS guided rocket were meant for surgical strike to minimise colateral and increase operation success, that means the modern saturation rocket like the MLRS, Astross 2 and smerch were more dangerous! a wider area damage and destruction.
ofcourse operational wise, it is better to fire only one rocket to take out a forward command bunker.....but seeing Discovery Channel demonstration of Himars...and the result of its test kinda disapoint me.
the underground bunker were destroyed, thats good. No argument in that. But the artillery pieces were intact, and the manekin seems to have minor injury ( of course they died from the shockwave)...just imagine an intact artillery pieces! all the enemy have to do is haul it up and repair it. -
ah!!!..........that sorta of targeting and firing at own time.....hehehe......is reserved for those ah peks and senior citizens..Originally posted by ferryman2393:really? i thought u fellas target ur rockets at batam every weekends.
They too need some firing practice now and than......... 
But than I thought the target is Tg Pinang......not Batam.....you need to polish up on your intelligence gathering..........my good ferry-a-man....you are off the mark!!! -
Originally posted by ferryman2393:well... i suppose to some people, 'bad weather' only relates to rain, clouds, mist, storm, snow, hail, sleet....
wanna have another go?
His BS word game again, try to dig himself out of the "ignorant hole" that he have dug himself by claiming GPS guided sysytem could be affected by weather!!!
Pathetic!!! -
Originally posted by tankfanatic:wait dude...this meant totally traditional way of calculation.... there were already a solution for this. The american design a computer calculation which also take the climatic, wind , air density and what not..to increase hit probability. Also in such way a modern unguided weapon have a better stabilizer.
the problem of firing unguided rocket using manual calculation and only aerobalistic characteristic is a classic problems, there is no doubt about that. It also means weaponologist around the world were hell bent in solving it.
It still still does not change the fact it is still an unguided system, all the modern electronics to improve the aeroballistic does not mean that could break the barrier of 1% CEP.
There are currently 3 classes of rocket system in production, unguided rocket system like Chineses' WS-1B, India's Pinaka and Brazil's Astros II etc, then came the Trajectory corrected system like Russian Smerch and Israeli Ramam Trajectory Corrected System, and lastly the guided system like US GPS guided GMLRS.
Let's look at the unguided system
WS-1B
No, there are also GPS guided DPICM rds as well like M30 GMLRS, and it is much better becos it has no possibility to be off target by 3.56km!!!!The probability deviation is between 1% and 1.5%.
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/ws1b/[/quote]
PinakaMinimum range is 10 km and the overall CEP (Circular Error Probable) is less than 1-2% of the total range.
For unguided system, the best CEP it could achieved is 1%
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Images-Pinaka.html
So the Chinese and Indian proudly announced the CEP of their unguided rocket whereas the Brazil does not dare to, why?
Is it becos it is so bad that it could affect the sales!!!
Anyway, I have given the Astros II the benefit of doubt by assuming it has a best possible CEP of 1%, which means it could off target by 3.56km at range of 89km.
Imagine if it's actual CEP is 2~3%!!!!
[quote]Originally posted by tankfanatic:Infact if the GPS guided rocket were meant for surgical strike to minimise colateral and increase operation success, that means the modern saturation rocket like the MLRS, Astross 2 and smerch were more dangerous! a wider area damage and destruction.
So which one is more dangerous????
Do you know why the Russian and US never developed unguided rocket above 50km until recently?
It is becos unguided system CEP is so bad that it is totally waste of money becos majority of the rds would land all over the place instead of the target.
For example, before GPS guidance, US MLRS unguided max range is only 45km,
the Russian older Uragan system( one generation b4 Smerch) is only 35km.
Only when the US developed GPS guided rocket where the range go to 70km and beyond, and Smerch with it's trajectory correction system go to abt 90km.Originally posted by tankfanatic:ofcourse operational wise, it is better to fire only one rocket to take out a forward command bunker.....but seeing Discovery Channel demonstration of Himars...and the result of its test kinda disapoint me.
the underground bunker were destroyed, thats good. No argument in that. But the artillery pieces were intact, and the manekin seems to have minor injury ( of course they died from the shockwave)...just imagine an intact artillery pieces! all the enemy have to do is haul it up and repair it.
That is becos they were testing the air burst mode, air burst is more for anti-personnel as the shockwave as reported will kill everyone there, if they really want to get rid of the arty , they would have use the point impact mode as the one use against the bunker.
The destruction of the bunker could be example for the arty piece if they are using the the point impact mode instead of air burst mode.
Lastly, with so many holes on that arty piece, by the time it is repaired, the war is likely to be over!!! -
ever heard of space weather? perhaps u'd like to do some reading on that.
-
well...i don't go around on my free days pointing my rockets to strangers.Originally posted by FireAndHell:ah!!!..........that sorta of targeting and firing at own time.....hehehe......is reserved for those ah peks and senior citizens.. They too need some firing practice now and than......... But than I thought the target is Tg Pinang......not Batam.....you need to polish up on your intelligence gathering..........my good ferry-a-man....you are off the mark!!! -
aiya gary so if they were useless why you wrote the iraqi call them steel rain? because it looks pretty?
-
so gary..is it safe to say that if the MAF knew about it CEP that were useless for a range beyond 70km..so thats why they only use rocket with less range?
after all in a war your target were not always at the edge of your rocket range and if a commander want to deploy its art batteries, he will surely deploy it so that the art can achive its max effect (since we all know unguided rocket were useless at long range, thank you gary) -
I think its safe to say that they bought the weapon not for strategic purpose to use on Singapore. With sufficient saturation, they can stir up a lot of debris on roadways that can slow down armored advance.
-
They are refering to the US MLRS which has max range of only 32km then with their 644 bomblets per rocket raining down on them.Originally posted by tankfanatic:aiya gary so if they were useless why you wrote the iraqi call them steel rain? because it looks pretty?
With shorter range, the rocket dispersion will be much smaller thus the effect of the steel rain will be better on the area target.
At longer range , the rocket dispersion will be wider, and the effect will be lesser, especially not all are landing on the area target!!!
The above concern all unguided rocket regardless whether it is MLRS's M26 or Astros II's SS60/80, becos of the nature of their poor CEP, the shorter the range , the better it is, that's the fact.
And you obviously a Malaysian who know more abt MY weaponary than that SG weaponary , just does not want to face it!!!! -
I will not said that MY only use them at short range afterall, their first order consist of 1,000 SS-30 30km-range rockets, 224 SS-60 60km-range rockets, 576 SS-80 80km-range rockets along with SS-09 training rockets.Originally posted by tankfanatic:so gary..is it safe to say that if the MAF knew about it CEP that were useless for a range beyond 70km..so thats why they only use rocket with less range?
after all in a war your target were not always at the edge of your rocket range and if a commander want to deploy its art batteries, he will surely deploy it so that the art can achive its max effect (since we all know unguided rocket were useless at long range, thank you gary)
And in 2005 , imported another 1,296 SS-30 rockets.
Rmemeber the first batch of 18 Astros II plus all the related vehicles and rockets only cost them RM791.92 million or abt USD 208mil, that is fxxking cheap even for an unguided system especially with so many rockets.
Perhaps they are so cheap simply becos they majority of the rockets were sitting in the warehouse since late 80s?
Avibras sold many Astros II to middle east in the 80s, mainly to Iraq with 66 Astros II, plus Saudi Arabia, and perhaps small qty to Qatar, Barhain etc.
But in 1990, the company filed for bankruptcy with US$90 million worth of unsold rockets, and that was a lot of rockets.
So perhaps majority of the rocket what MY was getting in the first batch actually refurbished unsold rocket of the late 80s, at lelong price, so they bought a number of SS-30/60/80 !!!
http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/astros.htm
Then later perhaps after evaluation, they decided that SS-30 is more useful therefore they bought a 2nd batch of it?
So whether MY only use them at short range is not so clear cut.
Here the vid from MY recent live fire of A II with SS-30 with abt one battery of 6 with unknown number of SS-30 against the target with range certainly below 30km.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsOsO_upKxw
And I was told that the the white rectangular thing on the hill was the target, and from the short vid, I see rockets landed near it but none at the target.
None was actually landed on it, otherwise it would be in the short vid especially with their "MY boleh" mentality!
You dun see such problem with GMLRS, even at range of 70km.
-
And you obviously a Malaysian who know more abt MY weaponary than that SG weaponary , just does not want to face it!!!!
how so?
im just curious because you and arthas kept saying that the weapon were useless...but not the Iraqi. i mean ..i understand that at longer range the unguided rocket were useless as they were not accurate...but it doesnt make it less dangerous?
a single shot bolt action rifle in the hands of a sniper still can hold a battalion right? -
No. A single sniper would be wiser not to engage elements belonging to a battalion sized unit. Battalion strength units usually have ready access to organic mortars that can spoil a sniper's day. Sit, wait and watch. =)Originally posted by tankfanatic:how so?
im just curious because you and arthas kept saying that the weapon were useless...but not the Iraqi. i mean ..i understand that at longer range the unguided rocket were useless as they were not accurate...but it doesnt make it less dangerous?
a single shot bolt action rifle in the hands of a sniper still can hold a battalion right?
Less accurate rocket at longer rangers less dangerous? You judge for yourself. Bring it down to a smaller level. Assuming a clear line of sight. Would you commit your squad armed with M-16s to engage enemy troops of unknown strength at a max distance, say 300meters? Would your fire be effective enough to deter them from movement? Or would you expose position prematurely. You decide for yourself. -
so, gary... why don't u give the rest of the flock a similar long winded lecture about 'bad weather'?
LOL.
u followed my advice to do some reading, didn't u? LOL..... man, what a pathetic loser .... -
the rest of u fellas did well not to act like u know better than wikipedia...well, almost all except shotgun. but i give that fella the benefit of a doubt.
man, i really nailed that one in... -
i understand that a sniper is best use as a recon...but there were instance in history that a sniper could stalled a company (ok maybe a battalion were too much)Originally posted by Shotgun:No. A single sniper would be wiser not to engage elements belonging to a battalion sized unit. Battalion strength units usually have ready access to organic mortars that can spoil a sniper's day. Sit, wait and watch. =)
Less accurate rocket at longer rangers less dangerous? You judge for yourself. Bring it down to a smaller level. Assuming a clear line of sight. Would you commit your squad armed with M-16s to engage enemy troops of unknown strength at a max distance, say 300meters? Would your fire be effective enough to deter them from movement? Or would you expose position prematurely. You decide for yourself.During the assault on Kwajalein atoll in Jan-Feb 1944 by the 7th Infantry Division, enemy snipers proved to be extremely deadly. On the last day of the 5 day battle for the atoll, Company F, 32nd Infantry Regiment, found themselves pinned down by sniper fire. The men could not tell where it was coming from. The bullets paralyzed the men. Then they tried to dig deeper into the sand or cover themselves with palm fronds in an attempt to hide. For an hour the company "clung to the earth" just 150 yards short of the end of the atoll. One by one, ten soldiers were hit by the sniper fire and each time the medics risked their lives crawling forward to the wounded and dragging them back. The "will to go forward" had vanished. Only the arrival of tank support as a shield from the sniper fire energized the men of Company F to get up and move out towards their objective. They raked the ground in front of them with constant BAR fire, flushed out the sniper, knocked out enemy bunkers and cleared out the last enemy opposition on the atoll.
During the battles in the Ia Drang Valley in November 1965, the 1st Bn of the 7th Cavalry was attacked in force by North Vietnamese regulars. Despite the arrival of elements of the 2nd Bn 5th Cavalry, the 1st Bn was forced to fall back to its LZ and establish a defensive perimeter. An element of the 2nd Bn had been on the LZ all day, so the unit leaders did not make a thorough search of the area. However, a sniper had infiltrated onto the LZ and with one shot at close range severely wounded the A Co. Cmdr. Even after the enemy sniper had fired, he remained undiscovered. The damage to the morale of the unit was severe. They no longer felt secure even within their own defensive perimeter. One sniper firing one round instilled a sense of fear and insecurity into elements of two battalions.
On 12 June 1982, 3d Battalion, the Parachute Regiment, British Army, attacked Mt. Longdon, Falklands. Difficult terrain coupled with a well entrenched enemy made movement slow and dangerous. The snipers of the Argentine 7th Infantry Regiment kept the British busy with accurate fire during the day and (with the aid of U.S. made night vision devices) at night. At one point during the attack, an entire British company was held up for hours by a single Argentine sniper. "Men found themselves being hit more than once by the same sniper, a terrifying tribute to the accuracy of the Argentinean's fire."
regarding the rocket...i didnt say that ...Gary did -
Lastly, with so many holes on that arty piece, by the time it is repaired, the war is likely to be over!!!
gary , when i say repair...i meant replacing the damage part with a new one. It is the way it was done. -
I would like to add a few words to the discussion on weather effects on GPS guided munitions.Originally posted by ferryman2393:well... i suppose to some people, 'bad weather' only relates to rain, clouds, mist, storm, snow, hail, sleet....
wanna have another go?
1. Solar flare affects all satellite communications. That is unless you are on the other side of the earth.
2. Weather does affect ballistic profile of glide bombs or GBU. If you do a release near a typhoon area, no amount of deflection of the wings can the bomb within its normal CEP ring.
3. what about rocket powered munitions? Any one wants to give it a try? -
True enough, space weather affects GPS accuracy, but a GPS/INS munition isn't continuously receiving GPS updates. The GPS is used to align its INS.
Theoretically speaking. If you were to locate a particular point, mark its coordinate and manually align ur INS at that location, you'd have a pretty good alignment too. -
ofcourse the GPS itself can be spoofed by giving false signal and coordinate to its receiver...but i millitary GPS usually have anti spoofing software installed. A good hacker can crack it though.
In UK and US hackers crack and hack GPS signal (civilian and some times millitary) as cheap as possible as a protest to its high cost and high fees. Its still ongoing even as we speak...everytime a counter spoof and jamming were introduce the hacker will crack it. Its a game for them. I wonder what happen if a government funded hacker do it? (the chinese probably)
unfortunately GPS jammer were easily located and bomb (the Iraqi GPS jammers) -
i dont know this solar weather thingy...not my game, but on december 6 last year an unexpected solar radio burst have effected virtually every GPS receiver on the lighted half of earth, civilian and millitary. Most receiver have reduction in accuracy and some (civilian) completely kaput.
-
The transmission delay caused by ionosphere or so called cosmic weather can be corrected by the implementing of DGPS technique that also eliminated effect of S/A for non-US military GPS users