SG buy satellite guided Himars rockets
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1.I cant agree more.Our old sub can scare away CV.Originally posted by FireAndHell:hohohoho!!..........I see someone saying them grapes are pretty sour cos they can't have em......hahahahh!!!
Yeah.........rite.....SG stuff sure is 2nd hand......BUT.....they sure will kick butt when the need arises!!!
I read in a book somewhere that says about weapons platforms......."it all depends on the pilot, right pilot in an F5E could take out the wrong pilot in a Raptor". So, it does'nt mean new stuff can be a winner. New stuff with crap operator.........equals crap new stuff.. Old stuff with good and dedicated operator...equals blow your brains out winner!! Yup how true!!!
Why US is leasing sub from Sweden? -
That's the frustration and sour grapes response that I was saying, you prove it, why? Today no ferry huh??? Originally posted by ferryman2393:I could understand the frustration by our southern neighbour, as their armed forces' asset need alway been more or less way above us in term of qty as well quality.
For example since 1969, when they got the AMX-13, whereas they have no significant potential enemy tank to shoot at for more than 10 years.
In the mid 80s, we got some 90mm Sibmas that they thought could counter their LT but the bulk of these were not even based in the peninsular.
When US left Vietnam, and later the Viets invaded Cambodia,no threats?!?
Becos of that, everyone in SEA started to arms themselves heavily especially Thai and SG since the US left, which SG getting their first batch of Centurion MBT in 1975, could very well due to Vietnam reunification under the communist rule in the same year.
Other stuff like F-5 fighters against their Mig-21s, M113 etc were also from the same period.
MY's Umnoputra still have the same apathy attitude until Vietnam invaded Cambodia in 1978, only then MY started to look at upgrading the MAF which deliveries only started somewhere in 82~84 period!!!
If based on the "Domino effect" as many were saying, MY would have long gone now due to their pathetic armed forces!!!!
No threats indeed!!!!
Vietnam was a clear and present danger, we were not arming ourselves against MY but a much larger foe, as you said , MY was and still is no threats to SG, not with their pathetic armed forces plus the Umnoputra in charge!!!
2nd hand AIP SSK is still better than new but non AIP SSK.Originally posted by ferryman2393:Recently, they bought in a lots of quality equipment, as they THOUGHT perhaps this time we could catch up with them, but for example , 211 Adnan but they manufactured almost 500 BXI/II, another is the 48 PT-91M , but they buying more than double of second hand Leo 2, 2 Scorpion SSKs but they are getting 2 (second hand) AIP SSKs, 18 SU-30MKM and we are getting abt the same number of F-15SG (there is a slight possiblility that these will also be second hands) and now our so called "strategic" weapon Astros II is going to be outclassed by their HIMARS too. hmmmm... and i wonder whose knee reaction is a little overdone here.
F-15SG is 2nd hand??
Brand new airframe are still being manufactured at the moment.
Yah loh, we have plenty of monies until your Dr M has to beg money from us during financial crisis, how malu, a big country beg money from a small country!!!Originally posted by ferryman2393:Afterall their budget is more than half of our, plus their infamous timid populace, the status quo will remain as long as they are unable to get their acts together. heck... they kept up the defence budget even during the infamous financial crisis. on second heck...its their money, they can always give it to charity for all i care.
Which I believe it will not change in the forseeable future, as long as the siege mentality is in charge!!!
And we have so much money, plus the fact that we are also kiasu and Kiasee that we always want to be better than "Boleh" land, so boleh become tak boleh!!! -
Since 1969, when the SAF was purposefully developed with the help of Israeli advisors, the doctrine then and now - remains in conventional theatre warfare, which required the full complement of every specialist arms that makes an Army effective.Originally posted by ferryman2393:I could understand the frustration by our southern neighbour, as their armed forces' asset need alway been more or less way above us in term of qty as well quality.
For example since 1969, when they got the AMX-13, whereas they have no significant potential enemy tank to shoot at for more than 10 years.
In the mid 80s, we got some 90mm Sibmas that they thought could counter their LT but the bulk of these were not even based in the peninsular.
Recently, they bought in a lots of quality equipment, as they THOUGHT perhaps this time we could catch up with them, but for example , 211 Adnan but they manufactured almost 500 BXI/II, another is the 48 PT-91M , but they buying more than double of second hand Leo 2, 2 Scorpion SSKs but they are getting 2 (second hand) AIP SSKs, 18 SU-30MKM and we are getting abt the same number of F-15SG (there is a slight possiblility that these will also be second hands) and now our so called "strategic" weapon Astros II is going to be outclassed by their HIMARS too. hmmmm... and i wonder whose knee reaction is a little overdone here.
Afterall their budget is more than half of our, plus their infamous timid populace, the status quo will remain as long as they are unable to get their acts together. heck... they kept up the defence budget even during the infamous financial crisis. on second heck...its their money, they can always give it to charity for all i care.
Which I believe it will not change in the forseeable future, as long as the siege mentality is in charge!!!
LOL .... a great way to start the morning with. loads of poo....
The history of the MAF had always been counter-insurgency, and during the first FPDA exercise held in the late-1970s - the MAF was found to be sorely wanting in conventional warfare, with its General Staff and Command having experience only up to Brigade level manouvres - to battle insurgents only.
The continued series of FPDA exercises helped to expose weaknesses of an integrated and combined defense of the Malayan Peninsular with Singapore as one of the lynch pin defense points.
The equipment that the SAF has purchased since 1969 had seen a slow but purposeful integrated effort at evolution of manpower and technology.
Since Singapore had no military history or tradition to guide us. most of the equipment purchased was a result of advise by foreign military advisors.
The AMX-13 was an opportunity for the IAF to dispose part of several division of these tanks in their inventory as they upgrade their armour; while at the same time, these acquired tanks were supposed to provide direct support fire to SAF infantry fighting amidst the rubber estates and plantations commonly found in Singapore during the early 1960s.
It was only until Singapore had sufficient local expertise to set up an organisation that evolve into the present day DSTA, that equipment acquistions became more deliberate.
Since the existent of DSTA, Singapore's military equipment purchase is based on a clear and diligent research to the organisational doctrines that resulted in the needs and objectives for such millitary hardware; and with a purposeful and diligent search for the best existing equipment and platforms to meet such doctrinal needs to match the existing level of technical expertise available to handle the acquired hardware.
More importantly, the purchase of the various military hardware and platforms is based on the sound and professional research of an independent body and not based on the personal preference and choice of any Political Personality.
Obviously, the acquistion of what is needed by the SAF will also have to consider the comfort levels of our immediate neighbors so as not to cause unnecessary alarm; as well as for the acquired hardware to ''fit and complement'' the general equipment standards of our immediate partner in the FPDA.
Under such circumstances, the SAF equipment that do not complement the existing standards of our immediate FPDA partner, even after the equipment has been acquired - it will remain in the country of origin, with the SAF personnel being trained in its use in the host country.
Insofar as military sensitivity towards our neighbors, the Singapore Government has always been mindful not to be provocative.
Since the birth of the SAF in 1967, the sabre was rattled only twice by using the general mobilization call-up of essential components of the SAF - on both occassions, it was a direct response by aggressively hostile politicians urging the use of immediate force to abbrogate all agreements affecting our water supply.
Despite the consistent built-up of the SAF - in terms of technological quality and new military skills, Singapore has always kept the SAF at a very low profile - as reflected in the use of equipment that will complement the SAF exercise partners from other countries.
How this modest efforts can be seen as Singapore attempting to keep up with the northern Mats and the Sallehs surely must be a result of themselves being self-insecure ? -
S'porean politicians have never EVER uttered the word war. That clown Syed Hamid Albar has. Enough said.
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You must understand who is Syed Hamid Albar background, you know why he said what he said. does not mean to imply that justified.Originally posted by sgf:S'porean politicians have never EVER uttered the word war. That clown Syed Hamid Albar has. Enough said. -
let's not turn this topics between MY vs SG.
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Its no use treating Malaysians with civility or respect, or with any sort of dignity that one human being accords to another.
They act in their own self-interest and call us unneighbourly.
They constantly boast of their alleged superiorities over Singapore and call us arrogant.
They lambast us with slander and rhetoric and say we insult them.
They conduct their relations with duplicity and lies and call us dishonest.
They hold others to different standards from themselves and call us hypocrites.
They patronize Singapore and its leaders in their media and demand that we accord theirs respect.
They meddle in our internal affairs and call us impertinent.
They complain of our leaders maligning their country while their own politicians detract Singapore with impunity.
They oppress and segregate their minorities and call us racists.
They call our education system propaganda and send their children to study in our schools and universities.
They belittle the character of Singapore and Singaporeans and reap the benefits of working and living here.
They declare the Singapore system defective and copy it shamelessly.
They call our government repressive while silencing dissent ruthlessly.
They clamour for Singaporean firms to be refused access to their country and demand our investment and tourist revenue.
They threaten Singapore with war, economic destruction, and cutting of our water supply and call us aggressors.
They act belligerently towards neighbouring countries and claim that we are encircling them.
They introduce new capabilities into the region and accuse us of starting an arms race.
They constantly take to reminding us of our small size and vulnerabilities and allege that we have a paranoid "siege mentality."
Every Singaporean should harbour nothing but ill feeling towards Malaysia, nothing short of a pathological hatred of what that country and its inhabitants represent. They are the antithesis of everything that Singapore stands for. A perversion of the ideals and principles that our nation was founded on. Malaysians themselves are a type of creature entirely different in every respect from us. They have never regarded us with anything other than contempt and hostility and I do not see why we should deal with them any differently. -
All hail Typhoon.
So well said i cant but weep at its purest truth.
Damn, someone put what he said into the hall of fame. -
I don't recall Malaysia having said half the things Typhoon listed.
If such name calling by Malaysia is bad, then let's not try and outdo them in that game. We should be wary of our neighbours as everyone do in Asia but let's tone down the rhetoric and bile...
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Well said Typhoon, well said, every single line. Let me just add on,
they want our money spent as tourists but blame us for congesting their roads.
they said we are unfriendly but want to skin us in many different ways.
they talked about racial sensitivity but alleged that the Singapore Malays are marginalized.
We must recoginise that this is the kind of neighbor we have, but these are not the reasons to aim our HIMARS at them. -
Tis true. When we go to JB, they complain we drive their prices up. So our ministers say DON'T GO. When our ministers say that, they complain that we deprive them of tourist dollars. Go also kenna F. Don't go also kena F. Wonderful country up north.Originally posted by sgdiehard:Well said Typhoon, well said, every single line. Let me just add on,
they want our money spent as tourists but blame us for congesting their roads.
they said we are unfriendly but want to skin us in many different ways.
they talked about racial sensitivity but alleged that the Singapore Malays are marginalized.
We must recoginise that this is the kind of neighbor we have, but these are not the reasons to aim our HIMARS at them. -
OK, a list of neighbour countries in Asia that LOVE each other...
1. China & N. Korea
2. India & Nepal
3. Singapore & Brunei
4.????
I'm sure there are a few more, but a list of neighbours that hate each other will be much easier to do and will be a very lengthy one.
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FACT: Most countries have friends all over the world but hate their neighbours.
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So far, I would say being next door to Malaysia is preferable to ANY OTHER country near us like Indonesia, Thailand, Burma, Cambodia, Laos, Philippines, Vietnam etc.
If we have a water issue with Indonesia, they wouldn't threaten to cut off water, they would just CUT OFF the water. They are not half as peacful as the Malaysians.
And if we are able to move our island and become neighbours with Brunei, I'm sure we would start quarreling with them, too. -
There is no love between North Korea and China, they just have common enemy.
There is also no love between India and Nepal, Nepal just submit to India.
Singapore and Brunei will still be friends even if we are next door to each other, provided both are equally rich.
Malaysia and Indonesia will have no problem with Singapore if they are richer than us, or if we submit to them, pay them whatever they want, or remain a small fishing town.
The greatest driving force for countries, especially neighbours to accept each other and live peacefully together, is a common enemy. European countries now become a united European, because they were first devastated by Nazi, then the threat of USSR.
What could become the common enemy to ASEAN, or just Singapore, Malaysia and Indonesia?
Japan occupied South East Asia but it was way before the independence of any countries.
If the big communist China were to attack and occupied, Singapore would be suspected of siding China because of our Chinese majority. Of may be India, then the many local indians would also be treated with suspicion.
What about terrorism? unfortunately, our neighbors are known to produce terrorists, and there is even suspicion that there are terrorists training camp not far away from us.
But we shouldn't be waiting for a common enemy.
We better learn to recognise our difference and accept one another. Being close only increases the chance of hostility in case of disagreement, that is what the SAF is aware of. -
Put racism aside, all four Singaporean ethnic groups have relatives across the borders with Malaysia and Indonesia; and with more inter-border marriages, the bonds of kinship continue since our grand-father and father's generations.Originally posted by Typhoon:Its no use treating Malaysians with civility or respect, or with any sort of dignity that one human being accords to another.
They act in their own self-interest and call us unneighbourly.
They constantly boast of their alleged superiorities over Singapore and call us arrogant.
They lambast us with slander and rhetoric and say we insult them.
They conduct their relations with duplicity and lies and call us dishonest.
They hold others to different standards from themselves and call us hypocrites.
They patronize Singapore and its leaders in their media and demand that we accord theirs respect.
They meddle in our internal affairs and call us impertinent.
They complain of our leaders maligning their country while their own politicians detract Singapore with impunity.
They oppress and segregate their minorities and call us racists.
They call our education system propaganda and send their children to study in our schools and universities.
They belittle the character of Singapore and Singaporeans and reap the benefits of working and living here.
They declare the Singapore system defective and copy it shamelessly.
They call our government repressive while silencing dissent ruthlessly.
They clamour for Singaporean firms to be refused access to their country and demand our investment and tourist revenue.
They threaten Singapore with war, economic destruction, and cutting of our water supply and call us aggressors.
They act belligerently towards neighbouring countries and claim that we are encircling them.
They introduce new capabilities into the region and accuse us of starting an arms race.
They constantly take to reminding us of our small size and vulnerabilities and allege that we have a paranoid "siege mentality."
Every Singaporean should harbour nothing but ill feeling towards Malaysia, nothing short of a pathological hatred of what that country and its inhabitants represent. They are the antithesis of everything that Singapore stands for. A perversion of the ideals and principles that our nation was founded on. Malaysians themselves are a type of creature entirely different in every respect from us. They have never regarded us with anything other than contempt and hostility and I do not see why we should deal with them any differently.
Leave the political rhetoric aside, we can easily separate the politics from kinship, and allow sanity to return.
Even amongst the politicians - there are the fiery, rabid types, and there are the moderate and sane ones.
Should we lump everyone in one sweeping stroke ?
It is better to subvert the efforts of the fiery and rabid ones, and support those who are more moderate and sane to help achieve common goals that will be mutually beneficial to all.
Remember the teachings of Sun Tzu in his 'Art of War', and the investments in military hardware will not lead to any loss of human lives and greater expenditures pre- and post battles. -
The common enemy is 'Poverty' - as highlighted by the Presidents of Indonesia and the Philippines.Originally posted by sgdiehard:There is no love between North Korea and China, they just have common enemy.
There is also no love between India and Nepal, Nepal just submit to India.
Singapore and Brunei will still be friends even if we are next door to each other, provided both are equally rich.
Malaysia and Indonesia will have no problem with Singapore if they are richer than us, or if we submit to them, pay them whatever they want, or remain a small fishing town.
The greatest driving force for countries, especially neighbours to accept each other and live peacefully together, is a common enemy. European countries now become a united European, because they were first devastated by Nazi, then the threat of USSR.
What could become the common enemy to ASEAN, or just Singapore, Malaysia and Indonesia?
Japan occupied South East Asia but it was way before the independence of any countries.
If the big communist China were to attack and occupied, Singapore would be suspected of siding China because of our Chinese majority. Of may be India, then the many local indians would also be treated with suspicion.
What about terrorism? unfortunately, our neighbors are known to produce terrorists, and there is even suspicion that there are terrorists training camp not far away from us.
But we shouldn't be waiting for a common enemy.
We better learn to recognise our difference and accept one another. Being close only increases the chance of hostility in case of disagreement, that is what the SAF is aware of.
It is due to 'Poverty' that has resulted in the success of terrorism taking root within our peaceful South-east Asian communities.
The other common enemies are 'Corruption' and abuse of 'Political Power' - both will undermine any stable societies and threaten prosperity and progress for this region. -
China have a long friendship with N Korea. There are many Chinese citizens whom are ethnically Koreans living near the border. Many N Koreans fought with PLA against the Japs and then KMT. China then fought Americans in N Korea. Trust me, they are friends,Originally posted by sgdiehard:There is no love between North Korea and China, they just have common enemy.
There is also no love between India and Nepal, Nepal just submit to India.
Singapore and Brunei will still be friends even if we are next door to each other, provided both are equally rich.
Malaysia and Indonesia will have no problem with Singapore if they are richer than us, or if we submit to them, pay them whatever they want, or remain a small fishing town.
You are right about India & Nepal.
You are probably right about Brunei, too, as it seems they are happy to remain low-key and enjoy their wealth.
Indon & MY, I don't trust either but I lose less sleep being next to Malaysia than Indonesia. -
Keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer.
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An atitude of self pity really.....we are poor because they are rich.Originally posted by Typhoon:Its no use treating Malaysians with civility or respect, or with any sort of dignity that one human being accords to another.
They act in their own self-interest and call us unneighbourly.
They constantly boast of their alleged superiorities over Singapore and call us arrogant.
They lambast us with slander and rhetoric and say we insult them.
They conduct their relations with duplicity and lies and call us dishonest.
They hold others to different standards from themselves and call us hypocrites.
They patronize Singapore and its leaders in their media and demand that we accord theirs respect.
They meddle in our internal affairs and call us impertinent.
They complain of our leaders maligning their country while their own politicians detract Singapore with impunity.
They oppress and segregate their minorities and call us racists.
They call our education system propaganda and send their children to study in our schools and universities.
They belittle the character of Singapore and Singaporeans and reap the benefits of working and living here.
They declare the Singapore system defective and copy it shamelessly.
They call our government repressive while silencing dissent ruthlessly.
They clamour for Singaporean firms to be refused access to their country and demand our investment and tourist revenue.
They threaten Singapore with war, economic destruction, and cutting of our water supply and call us aggressors.
They act belligerently towards neighbouring countries and claim that we are encircling them.
They introduce new capabilities into the region and accuse us of starting an arms race.
They constantly take to reminding us of our small size and vulnerabilities and allege that we have a paranoid "siege mentality."
Every Singaporean should harbour nothing but ill feeling towards Malaysia, nothing short of a pathological hatred of what that country and its inhabitants represent. They are the antithesis of everything that Singapore stands for. A perversion of the ideals and principles that our nation was founded on. Malaysians themselves are a type of creature entirely different in every respect from us. They have never regarded us with anything other than contempt and hostility and I do not see why we should deal with them any differently.
U know what at the end of the day it is their lost. Not ours. what they said is a reflection of sour grapes. -
Not all Malaysians feel that way la. Thats just the sentiments of some of them who tend to listen to whatever their useless politicians say. Politicians who dunno what to do with the local situation, so look for external "enemy" to bash.
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Which rich, developed, technology-savvy nation in the world can Malaysia, Indonesia, and Thailand look down on, play the 'big brother' game, not expect an aggressive response and greatly outnumber the other in terms of population by 5:1? Not the US, EU, China, Japan or India, but Singapore. A newly developed 1st World nation that a 2nd & 3rd World nation can always bully with caution because they will get a bloodied nose if they cross the line.
Let them play catch-up with the arms purchase and bleed them dry. -
touchy...touchy....
and all these could have been avoided if gary left his (or is it hers? damn...these internet thingy have a way of being anonymous) comments without listing down (as if to justify something - weird if u ask me) all of the NORTHERN neighbor's futile catch up games or their political and domestic peculiarity.
makes u wonder who is really afraid of whom here.
perhaps u lot have also forgotten who uttered the challenge "come and get us if u dare" (or something like that) when the SOUTHERN neighbor announced (or was it bragged?) its success in "getting" some AMRAAM? and those miserable AMRAAM were'nt even released to them until quite recently. and perhaps the sensible ones among u lot may recall how the NORTHERN neighbor response was to the AMRAAM?
now, let's get back to the topic of this peculiar weapon of mass potential, the type of which some of u lot couldn't poke with a long stick not too long ago... -
PM ed you.Originally posted by Typhoon:Its no use treating Malaysians with civility or respect, or with any sort of dignity that one human being accords to another.
They act in their own self-interest and call us unneighbourly.
< snip > -
Dude, 200 AMRAAMs isn't something we could hide long. North Country ought to feel worried IF we got those missiles and refused to comment about it.Originally posted by ferryman2393:touchy...touchy....
and all these could have been avoided if gary left his (or is it hers? damn...these internet thingy have a way of being anonymous) comments without listing down (as if to justify something - weird if u ask me) all of the NORTHERN neighbor's futile catch up games or their political and domestic peculiarity.
makes u wonder who is really afraid of whom here.
perhaps u lot have also forgotten who uttered the challenge "come and get us if u dare" (or something like that) when the SOUTHERN neighbor announced (or was it bragged?) its success in "getting" some AMRAAM? and those miserable AMRAAM were'nt even released to them until quite recently. and perhaps the sensible ones among u lot may recall how the NORTHERN neighbor response was to the AMRAAM?
now, let's get back to the topic of this peculiar weapon of mass potential, the type of which some of u lot couldn't poke with a long stick not too long ago...
IIRC, LKY mentioned that these missiles weren't aimed at anyone in particular, but were there to welcome those who have hostile intentions to Singapore. Unless you're admitting that there are hostile intentions towards Singapore, you shouldn't feel offended.
All my life, I've never heard of Singapore responding to our neighborly squabbles with SAF unless we were first threatened with it. Yet time and time again, North country's politicians scream for blood, lobbies the poisoning of reservoirs with chemical weapons and etc etc. We only stood to defend interests vital to our national survival.
And then, there's all these accusations of RSAF aircraft intruding into M'sian airspace. All this while no proof has been shown to us that we have indeed done so. All the accusations were based on "noise" and sightings by civilians. Where are the radar tapes? Wheres the proof? None.
Finally, there's the notion of Pedra Branca being Malaysian' territory and request of joint military patrol while waiting for tribuna. Again, M'sia brings in their "vaunted" arm forces on a unreasonable request. Fortunately, they didn't like the idea of RSAF patroling KL skies when we suggested we make some claim on KL. Its most unfortunate that we have to reciprocate in order for the northern politicians to see reason and logic. -
very well said and fair enough. its always not easy to keep up with neighbours. We ought to mind our own business and ignore what they want to say or do unless it threatens our survivority and livelihood.Originally posted by chino65:OK, a list of neighbour countries in Asia that LOVE each other...
1. China & N. Korea
2. India & Nepal
3. Singapore & Brunei
4.????
I'm sure there are a few more, but a list of neighbours that hate each other will be much easier to do and will be a very lengthy one.
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FACT: Most countries have friends all over the world but hate their neighbours.
...
So far, I would say being next door to Malaysia is preferable to ANY OTHER country near us like Indonesia, Thailand, Burma, Cambodia, Laos, Philippines, Vietnam etc.
If we have a water issue with Indonesia, they wouldn't threaten to cut off water, they would just CUT OFF the water. They are not half as peacful as the Malaysians.
And if we are able to move our island and become neighbours with Brunei, I'm sure we would start quarreling with them, too.
MY as a neighbour isnt that bad. To say that they have nothing identical to our cultures n living isnt quite true. there are many MYs who have became SGs over decades and some of our brothers here are in fact either born or grown up in MY. so lets give them a little respect and move on.
when we are far away from home overseas, you will come to realise how close our cultures are when we bump into another MYs. thats why some people may feel sleepy towns like batu pahat in MY today looks like SG in the 60s/70s. we have been progressing too fast but lets not forget SG cannot be so successful without the resources n labour from MY.
MY is no threat to SG as long as our armed forces remain vigilant and well euipped. -
hey ferryman,Originally posted by ferryman2393:touchy...touchy....
and all these could have been avoided if gary left his (or is it hers? damn...these internet thingy have a way of being anonymous) comments without listing down (as if to justify something - weird if u ask me) all of the NORTHERN neighbor's futile catch up games or their political and domestic peculiarity.
makes u wonder who is really afraid of whom here.
perhaps u lot have also forgotten who uttered the challenge "come and get us if u dare" (or something like that) when the SOUTHERN neighbor announced (or was it bragged?) its success in "getting" some AMRAAM? and those miserable AMRAAM were'nt even released to them until quite recently. and perhaps the sensible ones among u lot may recall how the NORTHERN neighbor response was to the AMRAAM?
now, let's get back to the topic of this peculiar weapon of mass potential, the type of which some of u lot couldn't poke with a long stick not too long ago...
you seems to be the narrow-minded culprit stirring up sentiments between MYs and SGs here. what a shame on you for your countrymen!