SG buy satellite guided Himars rockets
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Assuming a previously undetected Astros fires from 40km away. Immediately Astros launch is detected and our HIMARS is launched against it.Originally posted by sgdiehard:precision is the key to avoiding death and injuries of civilian. To be precise, location is important. If Astros is not undetected then there is nothing the airforce, the artillery, LSV, commando or anybody can do.
If Astros is our prime target in any hostility, then locating the Astros is one of the primary missions, by all means, at all cost.
HIMARS is just an additional mean to take out the targets once located, especially, when HIMARS out range the Astros (depending on what munitions is used).
Just imagine, when target location identified, it takes time for F-16 to take off, for apache to approach target, but we only need to press the button, if target is within range, HIMARS launched, ...good luck to them.
Assuming the Astros took only 30 seconds to fire off its load, and drives off within one minute of firing, can our HIMARS take this Astros out as it is fleeing?
What is the flight time of the HIMARS to travel 40km? -
Originally posted by gary1910:
The Israelis have their own rocket launchers, not limited the the MLRS system. Vaguely recall they have T-55s with launchers on top.
[b]US rockets that are available for M270 MLRS/M142 HIMARS:
From M26 to XM31:
http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/app4/mlrs.html
US tactical missile for M270 MLRS/M142 HIMARS:
http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-140.html
Israeli munition for M270 MLRS/M142 HIMARS:
1) With Ramam Trajectory Corrected System, range up to 45km( latest report) with better accuracy as compared to M26.
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/vehicles/self_propelled_artillery/mlrs/MLRS.html
2) Israel has also developed a GPS guided tactical missile called EXTRA with range up to 150km, with 2 missile in one single pod.
http://www.defense-update.com/products/e/extra.htm
3) Delilah GL Precision Surface Attack Weapon or LORA, is still under development, range could be as high as 300km and beyond.
http://www.defense-update.com/products/d/delilah.htm[/b] -
I was only looking at what are available for our HIMARS.Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:The Israelis have their own rocket launchers, not limited the the MLRS system. Vaguely recall they have T-55s with launchers on top.
Israeli has a number of home grown rocket systems, but they also uses US MLRS. -
How far can the Astros run in the next 10 mins? 15 mins? 20 mins?Originally posted by chino65:Assuming a previously undetected Astros fires from 40km away. Immediately Astros launch is detected and our HIMARS is launched against it.
Assuming the Astros took only 30 seconds to fire off its load, and drives off within one minute of firing, can our HIMARS take this Astros out as it is fleeing?
What is the flight time of the HIMARS to travel 40km? -
Or let me put the question another way:Originally posted by sgdiehard:How far can the Astros run in the next 10 mins? 15 mins? 20 mins?
Can we track a Astros and destroy it with HIMARS while it is on the move?
It's a question, not a challenge - just in case you have the wrong idea. -
If we got Eyes on, and the astros is out in the open, we can use a sat guided Himars on it.
The footprint for the payload should be enough to cover up for minor estimation mistakes. -
With HIMARS using Unitary rd against a moving target will be difficult but what if we get the M30 DPICM GMLRS?
It is as accurate as XM31 but with a larger spread of the AT/AP bomblets, should be able to disable some if not all the vehicles of A2 battery by saturating the area with salvos of M30s.
Then you may say that what if they are using SS-80 which max range of 89km whereas our GMLRS is above 70km, so may give them a standoff distance against our HIMARS?
There are other munitions options is available, 300km ATACM or Israeli 150Km EXTRA both with DPICM as well as unitary rds.
Then we also have Hermes 450 which is reported to be able to carry 2 SPIKE ER, with their constant survelliance and weapon to act against them, at least 2 will be destroyed especially the C2/FCS and FCS vehicles, becos w/o them , the effectiveness of the A2 batt will be greatly reduced.
With better survelliance equipment like the new G550 CAEW which have better ground survelliance as compare the E-2C plus all the new equipment above, our Astros hunting capability has greatly improve!!!
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satellites will most likely be used .----Strengths of our defence capability
crisp.nus.edu.sg---The Centre for Remote Imaging, Sensing and Processing (CRISP)CRISP is currently receiving and processing data from the following satellites:
SPOT
ERS
RADARSAT
SeaWiFS, NOAA and FengYun 1C
TERRA
IKONOS
EROS
2.SG ,i think,has rights to zoom in certain locations
in real time in case of emergency. -
there are many ways to track enemy missiles launch site:
1.Satellites
2.F5-T
3.Made in SG MAV-Multi role Autonomous Vehicle
In test flight lah.
can carry a load of 20kg of equipment like cameras and sensors. It has a wingspan of 1.8m
4.E-2C and land or sea based radars
5.Hermes 450 (H-450)
Max Endurance: > 14 hrs
6.Recently official confirmed back packed UAV
7.Human int--SOF,Recce or agents
MAV-Multi role Autonomous Vehicle just added -
Originally posted by lionnoisy:
All the above were used by the US Military during the liberation of Kuwait, at the time when Dessert Shield was staged as well as during Dessert Storm.
there are many ways to track enemy missiles launch site:
1.[b]Satellites
2.F5-T
3.E-2C and land or sea based radars
4.Hermes 450 (H-450)
Max Endurance: > 14 hrs
5.Recently official confirmed back packed UAV
6.Human int--SOF,Recce or agents [/b]
It was dubbed 'The Great Scud Hunt''.
Saddam Hussein launched his Scud Missile attacks on Israel and US-UN forces in Saudi Arabia with impunity, and none of the mentioned system listed from 1 to 6 worked during to protect lives.
Saddam's mobile launchers remained undetected - and except for one reported incident of an empty launch vehicle being detected and destroyed - no Scud missile launched were destroyed during the launch flight stage.
The Patriot ''anti-missile'' Missile did not provide the expected shield, and had actually caused collateral damage from partial destruction of the targeted incoming missile. -
Wah lan..... excuse to raise GST to 20% liao!
For wat? To kill dengue mosquitoes har?
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No DPICM please, I don't think we want to go down that road of creating landmines from bomblets.Originally posted by gary1910:With HIMARS using Unitary rd against a moving target will be difficult but what if we get the M30 DPICM GMLRS?
It is as accurate as XM31 but with a larger spread of the AT/AP bomblets, should be able to disable some if not all the vehicles of A2 battery by saturating the area with salvos of M30s.
Then you may say that what if they are using SS-80 which max range of 89km whereas our GMLRS is above 70km, so may give them a standoff distance against our HIMARS?
There are other munitions options is available, 300km ATACM or Israeli 150Km EXTRA both with DPICM as well as unitary rds.
Then we also have Hermes 450 which is reported to be able to carry 2 SPIKE ER, with their constant survelliance and weapon to act against them, at least 2 will be destroyed especially the C2/FCS and FCS vehicles, becos w/o them , the effectiveness of the A2 batt will be greatly reduced.
With better survelliance equipment like the new G550 CAEW which have better ground survelliance as compare the E-2C plus all the new equipment above, our Astros hunting capability has greatly improve!!! -
MRLS, whatever the warhead used, is not for moving targets. even arty counter battery fire is like hit or miss. mobile targets is best MRLS can hope to hit.
Doctrine: MRLS is for high value 'first hit' targets (comms centre, transport node, infrastructure like bridges, power and utilities, emplaced HQ (hard targets), either immovable or known locations (pre-surveyed) for such targets. Even large targets like airfields may not be targetted due to yield damage value.
To strike against other MRLS, odds can be lessen if possible sites are identified based on possible mission profile, range of enery system, ideal location elements (cover, road access, pre-surveyed (GPS) etc. most above is common sense which should be apparent to the intelligent user. -
Good post.Originally posted by Atobe:All the above were used by the US Military during the liberation of Kuwait, at the time when Dessert Shield was staged as well as during Dessert Storm.
It was dubbed 'The Great Scud Hunt''.
Saddam Hussein launched his Scud Missile attacks on Israel and US-UN forces in Saudi Arabia with impunity, and none of the mentioned system listed from 1 to 6 worked during to protect lives.
Saddam's mobile launchers remained undetected - and except for one reported incident of an empty launch vehicle being detected and destroyed - no Scud missile launched were destroyed during the launch flight stage.
The Patriot ''anti-missile'' Missile did not provide the expected shield, and had actually caused collateral damage from partial destruction of the targeted incoming missile.
If there are still some people who still blindly insists the Astros is crap, we are invulnerable et etc... read the link Atobe posted: 'The Great Scud Hunt''.
According to the article, it said the Iraqi took only 6 minutes to flee the scene after shooting, and this is an ancient Soviet system. With the Astros, the time must be even shorter.
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From the air, it is difficult to detect a MLRS truck before it launches. They can camounflage it in the jungle, turn off all engines and radars until firing. If on the road, they can camouflage it to look like an ordinary civi truck.
And earlier I posted an article that said that the US Patriot rate of success against the clumsy SCUD was virtually nil.
So basically, after a salvo of rockets are fired, you can only wait for the rockets to arrive. And hopefully a fighter CAP will track and destroy the empty launcher.
Is this corrrect? -
Even if we had something like the Patriot or the S-300 (assuming it works), they could just spam us with missiles any way. No way we can hit all that.Originally posted by chino65:Good post.
If there are still some people who still blindly insists the Astros is crap, we are invulnerable et etc... read the link Atobe posted: 'The Great Scud Hunt''.
According to the article, it said the Iraqi took only 6 minutes to flee the scene after shooting, and this is an ancient Soviet system. With the Astros, the time must be even shorter.
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From the air, it is difficult to detect a MLRS truck before it launches. They can camounflage it in the jungle, turn off all engines and radars until firing. If on the road, they can camouflage it to look like an ordinary civi truck.
And earlier I posted an article that said that the US Patriot rate of success against the clumsy SCUD was virtually nil.
So basically, after a salvo of rockets are fired, you can only wait for the rockets to arrive. And hopefully a fighter CAP will track and destroy the empty launcher.
Is this corrrect? -
Which is why Israel and the US is willing to inject so much funds towards the Skyguard, M-THEL and currently Raytheon's laser Phalanx.
Granted, these may not shoot down a rocket "rain", but it might take out at least 30-40%. -
Do you guys know that during GW1, Iraqi has abt 66 Astros II with SS-60 too?
Becos of that, Iraqi arty out range the US arty except the ATACMS Blk I( max range 165km) which 32 were fired.and of course the Tomahawk from navy ships.
What's is the impact during that war?
Practically no impact.
How many were destroyed during GW1 ?
I dunno , Iraqi arty pieces during that war was largely ineffective and many of their arty pieces were targeted and destroyed.
And how many Scud launcher were destroyed during that war, the problem is no one know except the Iraqi, USAF has strike abt 100 suspected Scud launchers after firing of Scud was detected, some believe many are actually decoys but some could be actual launchers.
Secondly, Some 650 R-17 missiles and 36 MAZ launch vehicles were sold to Iraq by the Soviet Union plus the fact with their own production, the number of Scud could as high as thousand before the war.
http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/scud_info/scud_info_refs/n41en015/scudnt3.htm
But after war, Iraqi admitted that only had abt 52 Scud left, others Intel agency believe it to be abt 100+ left.
Less than 100 were fired in GW1 , so the rest must be destroyed, becos USAF also targeted the production facility, storage and military installation related to the Scud.
The main difference with Scud and Astros is it's range, Scud has range from 373~900km, which mean the search area to hunt them is much larger, Astros II's SS80 only has 89km, so the search area is very much smaller.
2nd thing, Scud may operated by just only 2 vehicles, the launcher and the command vehicle during firing.
Whereas Astros II usually at the minimum operated in a battery of 6 plus FCS vehicle to be effective.
A convoy of 6 or more large 6x6 trucks is either resupply convoy or Astros II battery and should be targeted regardless during a war, no matter how they try to disguise them.
Anyway, Scud w/o a WMD warhead is no threat to change the outcome of the war, as proven in GW1.
Likewise, Astros II with it's highly inaccurate rocket is more a terror weapon against civilian than against well armed conventional force with air superiority. -
SCENARIOOriginally posted by gary1910:Do you guys know that during GW1, Iraqi has abt 66 Astros II with SS-60 too?
What's is the impact during that war?
Practically no impact.
JB government announces cutting off water supply due to price dispute.
(Secretly, MAF has earlier already put some units on high alert. Or may have even moved some into place for "training excercises".)
SAF mobilises. (We are mostly reservists after all....)
KL says "relax satu" and we'll try to talk to the JB government on SG's behalf". (Buying time.)
Meanwhile, MAF openly mobilises also.
Seeing the surprise element slip away, SAF moves into invasion posture.
All Malaysia goes to red alert and KL issues warning "Any unprovoked attack on Johore will make all of Singapre a legitimate battleground".
Basically meaning, they'll rocket anywhere in SG.
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Whether or not we still invade is anyone's guess but I do feel that the Astros has given Malaysia some psychological advantage over us.
You just need a cheap a.ss system like the Astros. No frills. No need HIMARS etc etc. No matter how primitive or inaccurate, the Astros can hit Toa Payoh no problem.
And they're getting more of it... so that some will inevitably survive the airstrikes.
It may neutralise our first strike "Forward Defence" by making us think twice about civilian casualties in SG. Any delay in implementation of Forward Defence lessens its chance of a quick success.
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The impact of the MLRS here may not be a battlefield one, but it can be a psychological one. -
I think gary1910's post was very informative.
The Iraqi artillery were largely non-contributory also due to loss of communications to their fronts as well. Neither did they have any reliable surveillance or recon assets they could use to target for their Astros.
The key to any indirect weapon deployment is information. The artillery system needs to know WHERE to shoot, when to shoot. The Iraqis couldn't do anything simply cause the US military was able to maintain the chaos, and black out their comms at the same time.
To say that the Astros would be used to target "Somewhere" in Singapore, in hope of discouraging any military incursion from us is also a real probability. Not impossible, if they decide to immediately adopt a cornered rat posture.
Otherwise, to simply dump rockets into Singapore would serve no purpose at all, while endangering their astros to detection and destruction. -
does anybody know who and how long it will take to call for ARTY fire for battalions? cos from what i understand, each unit will never have an arty batt assigned to it, just not enough of them.
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gary rightly pointed out that it is not correct to compare Scud and Astros. And the fear of Scud is not so much if it is just another artillery shell, but the possibility that it could deliver chemical warhead.
There are many ways to inflict fear and panic on the population by targetting civilians, Astros is just another delivery system of HE warheads, its impact is probably the same as a salvo of 155 mm artillery shells. I would think that when just one of the MY F18 manage to penetrate and drop a 1000 pound bomb anywhere in Woodland would have much greater impact, or a truck loaded with high explosive driven by suicide bomber, or a train exploded in tanjung pagar would also have cause greater fear and panic in Singapore.
there is really no need to over emphasize the impact of Astros, unless, it can deliver chemical warheads.
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U R assuming that HIMARS is already deployed in a static position launcher up action front? than can i assume they have to fire before the Astro reach Himars?Originally posted by chino65:Assuming a previously undetected Astros fires from 40km away. Immediately Astros launch is detected and our HIMARS is launched against it.
Assuming the Astros took only 30 seconds to fire off its load, and drives off within one minute of firing, can our HIMARS take this Astros out as it is fleeing?
What is the flight time of the HIMARS to travel 40km?
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If missiles(s) from the north fall on the golf course of Istana,
Some one will blame drunken Battery Commander push
the button .....
2.SG 155
mm cargo carry dual purposes bomblets 2 pages pdf .
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There are many types of 155mm rounds that we produce and have. All very useful but the tactical use of these rounds are limited by the number they have and truck along.
At the end of the day, all long range precision strike packages that MiNDEF purchase/create is to enhance and increase our options to target and take out enemy assets while reducing corresponding losses on our side. I
t is also to reduce the stress load of RSAF having to keep supporting our frontline SAF unit IE reduce CAS aircraft.
Army
120mm Mortar 6km Range
155mm Arty 30km Range
HiMars up to 70 Km Range
Airforce
JDAM < 25 Km Range
Maverick < 27 Km Range
JSOW 24 - 64 Km Range
Navy
Harpoon > 240Km Range
As you can see from here, HiMars will free up at least some air assets to be switched to other commands. Alternatively, it can become specific targetting devices to take out any threat. -
1)120MM super-rapid motar has a range of 8KM with ER bombs
2)FH-2000 has a range of 40KM with ERBB shells
3)Longshot 110KM with paveway LGB launched at 30,000ft
I notice tat CMO6 has also relised tat with our frigates we can hit targets far in-land with harpoons, up 2 32 can be carried by our frigates & who know wat others kinds of weapons they might carry in e future