Arms race in Asia
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Anybody would be out of their mind to invade the Vatican...besides the need to bypass the Italian Armed Forces(small problem) u will have to deal with the wrath of millions of Roman Catholics(major problem)Originally posted by sgf:Vatican is in Rome. To invade the Vatican you would have to invade Italy first. No way you can reach Vatican & not have to deal with the Italian armed forces.
Brunei is NOT in Singapore. You do not need to invade S'pore to get to Brunei, you can get them direct. Firstly, I doubt S'pore is going to send its troops to fight for another country. As it is we might not even have enough manpower to defend our own country if a prolonged war breaks out. What makes you think we are going to sacrifice our already minute army? Secondly, even if they do, by the time they reach Brunei, it would have been over run already.
In the event of an invasion of Brunei, you can be sure that the US Pacific Fleet and the British Forces will be around the East Asian territorial waters pretty fast...there's no need for the SAF to protect Brunei, with Brunei close relationship and historical link to the UK...the UK would treat the invasion of Brunei as another Falklands...besides...after 911..the Bush administration paranoia has reached it's peak..and u can be sure that any invading forces would be cut to pieces by the US Forces..trust me..the current administration can fund as many wars as wants....to conclude..it's not a good thing to be play punk in the international stage now... -
Brutus would be flipping in his grave to hear the Italian army considered a small problem. Heh! But I agree they are!
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That's true but it didn't stop Indonesia from trying to wreck their country.Originally posted by zagan:Indonesia and Brunei does not share any land border
The Brunei Revolt 1962 was actually the first actions of Indonesia's Confrontation. Indon Pres Sukarno instigated and supported an armed uprising against the Sultan of Brunei, which was put down only by arrival of British troops.
I think Brunei is quite happy with what they have and just want to relak one corner.Originally posted by zagan:Brunei also did not actively claiming the Spratlys like the rest of the claimants (stationing troops, etc) -
Think regional military cooperation and not conflict.
Recent arms purchases have been quite complementary.. -
The Vatican is nothing more than a big church complex in a touristy area of Rome and hires its own armed security guards.Originally posted by Short Ninja:Let me ask you something,Does the Vatican need a Navy or Paratroopers??
Its so-called independence is merely symbolic and not real.
This comparison between a church complex and an actual country is ridiculous.
I can't find such a pact on google. Any reference websites?Originally posted by Short Ninja:Brunei is being practical and besides they have long worked out a deal with Singapore in case of emergency.
They are also not as poor as you think. Indon, MY, Brunei etc are all rich with natural resources like Gas, oil, timber etc...(But where's all the money gone?)Originally posted by Short Ninja:As for 'Arms Race' in ASEAN, SIngapore is the one setting the pace that is impossible for everyone esle to catch up because it cost lots of $$$$ and they rather use it for something else that is if they had the money in the first place.
Singapore's needs are actually very simple: survival.
The other countries have more complicated problems, and therefore very different reasons for arming. The question is whom are theyy arming against? When did this thing begin in earnest. Was there somethign that sparked it off, or was it a gradual buildup?
Ten years ago, no one had subs, aircraft carriers, MBT's (SG not officially) except Thai and no one had MLRS or attack choppers.
All of a sudden, 10 years later, all these new weapon systems are introduced.
What triggered it? -
Yes,the point is it would be fruitless to invade BruneiOriginally posted by mozzi190:Anybody would be out of their mind to invade the Vatican...besides the need to bypass the Italian Armed Forces(small problem) u will have to deal with the wrath of millions of Roman Catholics(major problem)
In the event of an invasion of Brunei, you can be sure that the US Pacific Fleet and the British Forces will be around the East Asian territorial waters pretty fast...there's no need for the SAF to protect Brunei, with Brunei close relationship and historical link to the UK...the UK would treat the invasion of Brunei as another Falklands...besides...after 911..the Bush administration paranoia has reached it's peak..and u can be sure that any invading forces would be cut to pieces by the US Forces..trust me..the current administration can fund as many wars as wants....to conclude..it's not a good thing to be
play punk in the international stage now... -
There are no poor countries surrounding Singapore its just that their defence budget is nowhere compared to the Island Country.With that kind of spending one would expect Singapore to not only survive but to prevail if there should be an arms conflict with the neighbors.Arms are like shoes,people can tell what you really are just by looking at your feet>Originally posted by chino65:They are also not as poor as you think. Indon, MY, Brunei etc are all rich with natural resources like Gas, oil, timber etc...(But where's all the money gone?)
Singapore's needs are actually very simple: survival.
The other countries have more complicated problems, and therefore very different reasons for arming. The question is whom are theyy arming against? When did this thing begin in earnest. Was there somethign that sparked it off, or was it a gradual buildup?
Ten years ago, no one had subs, aircraft carriers, MBT's (SG not officially) except Thai and no one had MLRS or attack choppers.
All of a sudden, 10 years later, all these new weapon systems are introduced.
What triggered it?
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quote:
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Originally posted by Short Ninja:
Let me ask you something,Does the Vatican need a Navy or Paratroopers??
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The Vatican is nothing more than a big church complex in a touristy area of Rome and hires its own armed security guards.
Its so-called independence is merely symbolic and not real.
This comparison between a church complex and an actual country is ridiculous.
i tink that people in the Vatican would beg to differ on tis opinon of yours. FYI, the so called "security guard'' are actually the Swiss Guards that has been protecting the Vatican for the past thousand years or so..the link here is more than a church and it's security guards
Symbolic?i would beg to differ on that too. The Vatican is an official state that has been in existence for the past two thousand years and only the Japanese can claim to have a longer history than the Vatican. In the peak of it's power, the Vatican and it's clergymen controlled large tracts of land in Europe. It would be dangerous to say that their independence is symbolic because in Europe, they have many states that are shaped in the mould of the Vatican and to make the assumption that their independence are symbolic is pretty shallow. I would think that puppet states such as Manchukuo and Vichy France are more suited to this description.
About the last point, over here in Singapore, are we any better. We are basically the size of a small town and not because of government policies , we will still be pretty much a sleepy backwater in South East Asia. Does it make it ridiculous for Singapore to be described as a state?? The determinant of statehood are more than the size and system of the sate, it is the influence and respect that one gets from the international community that determine the prowess of your state. You can assume that excluding nuclear weapon in it's agenda, the North Korean would not even have the influence 1/10 the influence the Vatican has on the international stage. -
and there you have one pissed off Catholic to begin with>
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Make that 1.1 Billion CatholicsOriginally posted by mozzi190:.... u will have to deal with the wrath of millions of Roman Catholics(major problem) 
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If the Vatican is a good model for Brunei, then well... Brunei should just hire some Swiss Guards, dress them up in bloomers, arm them with spears and swords and be done with it.
I'm sure that they will enjoy prosperity and influence for the next thousand years. -
this just shows how much of an understanding u have of the vatican nor the history of the swiss guard u have before writing such stuff-.-" pls do some wiki or google before saying such things.. plus ur comparing apples and oranges here.Originally posted by chino65:If the Vatican is a good model for Brunei, then well... Brunei should just hire some Swiss Guards, dress them up in bloomers, arm them with spears and swords and be done with it.
I'm sure that they will enjoy prosperity and influence for the next thousand years.
the vatican is indeed a state however its focus and vision is so much different now as compared to a country state like brunei.
and don u think that the swiss guard doesnt use guns ??? -
No lah it wasnt meant for a model example as I was just hippopotamously speakingOriginally posted by chino65:If the Vatican is a good model for Brunei, then well... Brunei should just hire some Swiss Guards, dress them up in bloomers, arm them with spears and swords and be done with it.
I'm sure that they will enjoy prosperity and influence for the next thousand
years. 
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Better than Wiki - I've been to the Vatican.Originally posted by 2e3:this just shows how much of an understanding u have of the vatican nor the history of the swiss guard u have before writing such stuff-.-" pls do some wiki or google before saying such things.. plus ur comparing apples and oranges here.
the vatican is indeed a state however its focus and vision is so much different now as compared to a country state like brunei.
and don u think that the swiss guard doesnt use guns ???
Funny, if they were an independent country, how come they didn't ask for my passport at the gates? Heck I got to bring passport just to eat seafood in JB.
I know the Swiss Guards have firearms. There was even a shooting incident inside the Vatican. So what, a few assault rifles and pistols makes you a country?
There are hotels in the US just as well-armed.
The Peninsula Hotel Beverly Hills where I stayed, i see them jogging in formation in the morning packing heat in their shoulder holsters. Does that make the the Peninsula Hotel a country?
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What's wrong with the statement 'Vatican's independence is symbolic"? A symbol can last thousands of years, something real and material can be broken overnight. A symbol is always held in higher esteem than something real and material. People who seek immortality will try to turn themselves, or their achievements, into something symbolic.
But if you want to insist the Vatican IS a country, HAS the infrastructure of a country - JUST like Brunei - sorry... you have to be pretty thick and need help more than wiki can provide.
It may have been like a country hundreds of years ago, today it is a small area in Rome. PERIOD.
But anyway, mozzi already said he is joking about bring up the comparison between the Vatican and Brunei, so let's drop this religious topic. -
I won't be surprised that us and Brunei have some kind of defence pact. So arguing whether or not we ought to send troops there is moot, unless we intend to renege on the pact.
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1) The Sultanate of Brunei was also big in the good old days.
2)You think Singapore Troops are stationed in Temburong just to feed the mosquitoes ar?
3)You want the Swiss guards to double up as immigration officers ar?
4)Vativan is the smallest country in the World.Period! -
2) The so called singapore troops are only a group of singapore soldiers that are station in Temburong to support the Ex Lancer Lakiun Training Camp. The camp is not a garrison for SAF troops but just a base for jungle training.Originally posted by Short Ninja:1) The Sultanate of Brunei was also big in the good old days.
2)You think Singapore Troops are stationed in Temburong just to feed the mosquitoes ar?
3)You want the Swiss guards to double up as immigration officers ar?
4)Vativan is the smallest country in the World.Period! -
As i have said earlier on, the determinant of a nation statehood is not it's size or the number of troops it has.Originally posted by chino65:Better than Wiki - I've been to the Vatican.
Funny, if they were an independent country, how come they didn't ask for my passport at the gates? Heck I got to bring passport just to eat seafood in JB.
I know the Swiss Guards have firearms. There was even a shooting incident inside the Vatican. So what, a few assault rifles and pistols makes you a country?
There are hotels in the US just as well-armed.
The Peninsula Hotel Beverly Hills where I stayed, i see them jogging in formation in the morning packing heat in their shoulder holsters. Does that make the the Peninsula Hotel a country?
...
What's wrong with the statement 'Vatican's independence is symbolic"? A symbol can last thousands of years, something real and material can be broken overnight. A symbol is always held in higher esteem than something real and material. People who seek immortality will try to turn themselves, or their achievements, into something symbolic.
But if you want to insist the Vatican IS a country, HAS the infrastructure of a country - JUST like Brunei - sorry... you have to be pretty thick and need help more than wiki can provide.
It may have been like a country hundreds of years ago, today it is a small area in Rome. PERIOD.
But anyway, mozzi already said he is joking about bring up the comparison between the Vatican and Brunei, so let's drop this religious topic.
The Vatican is defined as a land locked city state and the smallest INDEPENDENT state in the world. The papel state has a working administration and a full fledge political system. They also conduct their own foreign relation with the Pope conducting the relation on behalf on the Vatican thus, as Wiki quotes....
''Given the distinction between the two entities, the Holy See's immense influence on world affairs is quite unrelated to the minuscule size of the Vatican City State"
Thus, i don't see in anyway how the Vatican resembles a "state with symbolic indepedence". I thought for a person that have been to the Vatican, you would have understood more about the Vatican than most people, but i can't really see any understanding.sorry!! -
I don't quite understand this point about us sending troops to Brunei being moot.Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:I won't be surprised that us and Brunei have some kind of defence pact. So arguing whether or not we ought to send troops there is moot, unless we intend to renege on the pact.
Furthermore, isn't Brunei still a protectorate of England? Or not? -
Look here you guys: mozzi etc...Originally posted by Short Ninja:Let me ask you something,Does the Vatican need a Navy or Paratroopers?? Brunei is being practical and besides they have long worked out a deal with Singapore in case of emergency.
As for 'Arms Race' in ASEAN, SIngapore is the one setting the pace that is impossible for everyone esle to catch up because it cost lots of $$$$ and they rather use it for something else that is if they had the money in the first place.
This is the post that sparked off the debate.
The question is not the Vatican's independence, but that the Vatican is a good model for Brunei to follow.
This fool said that because the Vatican don't need a navy or paratroopers, neither should Brunei.
If you agree with this statement - you're as thick as this idiot.
If you don't agree with this statement, STFU and move on with your life, -
Originally posted by chino65:
Agree or disagree we are just discussing here.No need for name calling unless you are in tantrum and banging your head against the wall each time people dont share your thoughts.
Look here you guys: mozzi etc...
This is the post that sparked off the debate.
The question is not the Vatican's independence, but that the Vatican is a good model for Brunei to follow.
This fool said that because the Vatican don't need a navy or paratroopers, neither should Brunei.
If you agree with this statement - you're as thick as this idiot.
If you don't agree with this statement, STFU and move on with your life, -
The topic is arms race in Asia and I am just saying that Brunei has good reasons not to build up it military.Using the Vatican as comparison just came into mind as Brunei is a Malay Sultanate enveloped by Malaysia.No need to go round and round with this topic like a Pedophile trying to sodomize yourself
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well if an idiot attack vatican we can be assured that most christian country will come and help....
but the brunei ...... people may come and help them....but its not a hundred percent assurance. -
Can we drop the Vatican issue already?
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This one is for Chino 65.If you live in a condominium would you need high tech security system for your flat? The very minimum you still need would be a door and a padlock.