Arms race in Asia
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What's everybody preparing for?
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cool... whats that
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Just showing off their economic success and nothing moreOriginally posted by chino65:What's everybody preparing for?
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No one likes being a loser.
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Indons have recently purchased a pair of Kilo-Class submarines from Russia. Kilo submarines are purportedly one of the quietest diesel-power undersea vessels in the world, even though they are well over twenty years old. The deal happened when Vladimir Putin pulled over for a pit-stop on the way to Sydney.
This clearly highlights the role of external major powers such as Russia in "instigating" arms races. From what I see, Russia is trying to exert a greater strategic influence in the Far East as of late.
Indonesia itself is probably trying to outdo Singapore and Malaysia. -
indonesia can't really defend it's terrority, let alone expand her influence.Originally posted by iSpeak:Indons have recently purchased a pair of Kilo-Class submarines from Russia. Kilo submarines are purportedly one of the quietest diesel-power undersea vessels in the world, even though they are well over twenty years old. The deal happened when Vladimir Putin pulled over for a pit-stop on the way to Sydney.
This clearly highlights the role of external major powers such as Russia in "instigating" arms races. From what I see, Russia is trying to exert a greater strategic influence in the Far East as of late.
Indonesia itself is probably trying to outdo Singapore and Malaysia. -
I agree with the first point ; the Indonesian military is far from being a competent force. 10 Sukhois to cover their territory I daresay is less than sufficient. However, we have to keep in mind that no matter what, small steps are small steps. It's the extent of exerting a greater strategic role within the region that is of concern to me.Originally posted by beavan:indonesia can't really defend it's terrority, let alone expand her influence.
But then again, maybe my concerns are unwarranted. I highly doubt between Singapore, Indonesia and Malaysia, nobody is seriously intent on starting any conflict. All bark and no bite for all three states - alot like our vaunted SAF. This region hasn't seen open conflict for four decades and I don't see it occuring anytime soon, especially now there is greater consciousness regarding the importance of regional economic integration.
So my message to military nuts here is we don't need to get excited and up in arms, pardon the pun, over every military deal in the region. -
Indonesia's territorial defense is rooted in General Nasution's concept of Total People's Defence. I hope people understand this concept well and observe how post colonial Indonesia has been shaped by a central military axis that dominates Indonesian society. To say Indonesia is incapable of territorial defence is to show off great stupidity and hubris.
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I wouldn't say its an arms race "yet." More like a gradual build up to keep up with times.
We cannot realistically expect our neighbors to sit back and watch us modernize without doing anything by themselves.
This 1 billion Credit deal will no doubt build up Indon's military, but still not to a point to threaten SG and MY. -
Is China and Vietnam's military expansion a trigger?
How about Spratlys?
I think Spratlys is a bigger reason for the arms race than we give credit to. It is easy for us to overlook this as we have no claims there.
Current atmosphere indicates that dwindling fuel and other natural resources will be the cause for conflicts.
Ours would be water.
Strangely, Brunei seems to be quite satisfied being a british protectorate and relying on close ties with SG. They have the most to lose being small, rich and weak militarily.
They don't even have a air force and don't seem to be in a hurry to get one. -
They do have an airforce but purely rotary wing. Kinda reminds me of the Kiwis getting rid off all fighter jet (A4N Skyhawks I believe). Except Brunei never had fighters to begin with.Originally posted by chino65:Strangely, Brunei seems to be quite satisfied being a british protectorate and relying on close ties with SG. They have the most to lose being small, rich and weak militarily.
They don't even have a air force and don't seem to be in a hurry to get one.
Their navy's not much to shout about either. 3 corvettes awaiting delivery. 3 guided missle PCs. 3 patrol boats.
And I believe their army just has French IFVs, British Scorpion LTs & 105mm howitzers in the form of L118 Light Gun.
Really odd considering how rich they are. Sure you're not heading for war but surely there's a need for credible defence. You sure as hell can't depend on the UN or ASEAN for help. By the time aid arrives you're dead!! -
Let me ask you something,Does the Vatican need a Navy or Paratroopers?? Brunei is being practical and besides they have long worked out a deal with Singapore in case of emergency.
As for 'Arms Race' in ASEAN, SIngapore is the one setting the pace that is impossible for everyone esle to catch up because it cost lots of $$$$ and they rather use it for something else that is if they had the money in the first place. -
Maybe they have worked out a deal with RSAF for us to provide air defence and support i times of emergency or war. This is hardly inconceivable because of our very close relations with the Sultanate in numerous areas.Originally posted by sgf:They do have an airforce but purely rotary wing. Kinda reminds me of the Kiwis getting rid off all fighter jet (A4N Skyhawks I believe). Except Brunei never had fighters to begin with.
Their navy's not much to shout about either. 3 corvettes awaiting delivery. 3 guided missle PCs. 3 patrol boats.
And I believe their army just has French IFVs, British Scorpion LTs & 105mm howitzers in the form of L118 Light Gun.
Really odd considering how rich they are. Sure you're not heading for war but surely there's a need for credible defence. You sure as hell can't depend on the UN or ASEAN for help. By the time aid arrives you're dead!!
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Question is are we paid by Brunei to aid them in times of war...
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Need not be in monetary terms....for example as an oil-rich country they can ensure a continuous supply of oil to us should we fight a war which may or may not involve them. A mutually beneficial agreement.Originally posted by SpecOps87:Question is are we paid by Brunei to aid them in times of war... -
Yes,and that also just like when Saudi Arabia financed the Iraq-Iran war for over 10 yearsOriginally posted by SpecOps87:Question is are we paid by Brunei to aid them in times of war... -
i think there is a balance of power projection as we go along. I also think what SG is doing has reach a level of arms built up beyond our turf and it is a power projection to a new level; u have to see the direction of that projection and see who is following.
potential
Oil resources since to be the biggerest concern. especially PRC being the net importer ofmaterial to fuse its economics expansion.
trade retailation will be the game that PRC can play with SEA. It could easily translate into hostality.
internally between SEA it is more of a polical shift i do think SG will shift along with the region. -
Arms race???
as in arms or weapons? -
Vatican is in Rome. To invade the Vatican you would have to invade Italy first. No way you can reach Vatican & not have to deal with the Italian armed forces.Originally posted by Short Ninja:Let me ask you something,Does the Vatican need a Navy or Paratroopers?? Brunei is being practical and besides they have long worked out a deal with Singapore in case of emergency.
As for 'Arms Race' in ASEAN, SIngapore is the one setting the pace that is impossible for everyone esle to catch up because it cost lots of $$$$ and they rather use it for something else that is if they had the money in the first place.
Brunei is NOT in Singapore. You do not need to invade S'pore to get to Brunei, you can get them direct. Firstly, I doubt S'pore is going to send its troops to fight for another country. As it is we might not even have enough manpower to defend our own country if a prolonged war breaks out. What makes you think we are going to sacrifice our already minute army? Secondly, even if they do, by the time they reach Brunei, it would have been over run already. -
we need more GUNDAM!!!!!
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IMO, eventhough Brunei is an oil-rich country, it doesn't really need a huge military, because its neighbour have never really threatened its independence
the last time Brunei was in conflict, the same neighbour provided military assistance, along with UK, NZ and Australia
about arms race in Asia, only China and India buy in huge numbers, next to them, the rest are quite insignificant, IMO certaintly not enough to destabilize the region -
You left out the part where the Vatican state is protected by the Swiss. They have plenty of firepower.Originally posted by sgf:Vatican is in Rome. To invade the Vatican you would have to invade Italy first. No way you can reach Vatican & not have to deal with the Italian armed forces.
Brunei is NOT in Singapore. You do not need to invade S'pore to get to Brunei, you can get them direct. Firstly, I doubt S'pore is going to send its troops to fight for another country. As it is we might not even have enough manpower to defend our own country if a prolonged war breaks out. What makes you think we are going to sacrifice our already minute army? Secondly, even if they do, by the time they reach Brunei, it would have been over run already. -
Read up on the Brunei Revolt and the Confrontation, both instigated by Indonesia.Originally posted by zagan:IMO, eventhough Brunei is an oil-rich country, it doesn't really need a huge military, because its neighbour have never really threatened its independence
the last time Brunei was in conflict, the same neighbour provided military assistance, along with UK, NZ and Australia
about arms race in Asia, only China and India buy in huge numbers, next to them, the rest are quite insignificant, IMO certaintly not enough to destabilize the region
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But in some way I tend to agree when people say that the rush to buy arms is not neccessarily to hammer each other here within ASEAN - thuogh the possibility is ever present.
Like I said before, the main reason could be Spratlys, of which Brunei is one of the claimant, incidentally.
China, Vietnam and Philippines have already fired shots at each other. So if you are one of the claimant, the writing's on the wall. -
Indonesia and Brunei does not share any land border
Brunei also did not actively claiming the Spratlys like the rest of the claimants (stationing troops, etc)
from reading, there are way more clashes than what is usually mentions
air intrusions, sub intrusions, etc, not mentioning special forces 'brushes' with each other
very 'hot' cold war, but each tries to limit it to low level activities, nobody wants an open shooting war
Brunei is pretty safe IMO, no need for them to be paranoid -
The Pope is being protected by the mercenary Swiss Guards for centuries and not the Swiss armed forces in Switzerland.Originally posted by touchstone_2000:You left out the part where the Vatican state is protected by the Swiss. They have plenty of firepower.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Guard