Singapore plans multiple rocket launcher, IFV acquisitions
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I beg to differ, yes most stuff will still work. Changi Airport will be shutdown. Remember what happened to Sri Lanka's civilian airport after the near by military airbase was attacked.Originally posted by Orcishwarrior:Just pray hard that Skyguard Laser System will be online @ the end of the decade
mount a few on the roof top and we are "impregnable" once again lol. @ the start of the war you might probably see some JDAM bombs away their harden Concrete bunk or probably JSOW flying across.
Few rocket arent gonna cripple singapore remember singapore economic is largely manage by TEMASK and who owns temask?
The transportation arent gonna cease , the port is not gonna stop functioning, the airport will most probably be still open to commercial airliner and things will be in its "norm". Besides till then our foreign reserve could be some 10 digits lol
No carrier will fly so close to a war zone. -
I beg to differ, yes most stuff will still work. Changi Airport will be shutdown. Remember what happened to Sri Lanka's civilian airport after the near by military airbase was attacked.
That depends on the intensity of the situation. But given the circumstances of such a war, air and quite possibly sea civilian traffic would come to a standstill in the peninsula and Singapore. Risks which we will have to bear. We are not accumulating so much wealth for nothing.
No carrier will fly so close to a war zone. -
That is one possible way of how a MLRS counter-strike into CBD may be looked upon.
I fully appreciate your scenario in the context of this discussion. But I posit that the MAF would not directly attack any densely populated area; not unless we do so first. That would include commercial areas and industrial ones as well. The CBD may not have as many people at night but the numbers are still substantial. The same goes for for industrial zones as well. They would not do so because they fully understand that we would retaliate in the same manner and the result would be a catastrophic lost in industrial and commercial capability on the part of Malaysia; all the more so given the SAF`s ability to inflict more harm on them; several orders of magnitude more.
However, the scenario I suggested was that Singapore makes the first strike, and the MAF retaliates by wrecking havoc in our CBD with their MLRS.
With much of our citizens well educated, they'd instantly recognize that it is indeed a staggering price to pay. If the MLRS strike was timed way after midnight, where civilian population would be minimal in the CBD areas, the citizens may start considering the cost to the war in the first place.
Whether, the war may have been a "Pre-emptive" strike, or an effort to secure our water supply (which we are moving away from), the people might consider the SAF efforts to have brought upon us a disaster rather than become angered at the MAF.
It is part and parcel of war to be able to threaten strategic objectives and if necessary demonstrate the intent and capability to capture or damage it. Such strategic objectives could be industrial centers, or financial centers. (Side note: I do not consider densely populated civilian housing to be strategic objectives. )
While they have too few of such MRLS to level the CBD (perhaps we'd lose a few storeys off a few buildings), it does send the message across that they are capable of threatening it, and would "encourage" to weigh our "costs" before we dare make any military ventures into M'sia.
An honest question, besides their Astross 2, are we concerned/worried about the MAF capability as a whole, or any of their other systems? I'm not even concerned about their Flanker/Adder capability. Its gonna cost them more money to maintain than to fly.
OTOH, a saturated rocket attack on the CBD does bring the "Risks" of war a lil closer to home.
Secondly, they would not want to lose the moral high ground by attacking a non-military target. Not only would it make it extremely hard for them to justify such an action but the leverage she seeks when she goes to the negotiating table to discuss terms of ceasefire or an end to the conflict would evaporate. She is attacking an important financial node/centre in used not just by Singapore but many other countries as well. The impact would be felt by many other countries using the financial centre as well; and highly likely seriously. It may even push other countries to initiate counter-productive actions against Malaysia. This may come in the form of sanctions and may even culminate in military actions in support of Singapore.
Thirdly, why choose a non-military attack when presented with an opportunity to inflict harm(albiet a small one) on Singapore`s military complex; hence limiting(where possible)or slowing down Singapore`s push up north ?
There are risks in every war. The war would undeniably be brought closer home; right to the streets of Malaysia. If this realisation does not filter through into the masses of our population, then the onus is on the incumbent government to inform the population of the severity of the situation. You would expect some collateral damage; intended or otherwise. -
This is an article from MY's Tempur:
More Firepower For Malaysian Army
18/06/2007 - TEMPUR JUN 2007
The Malaysian Army’s Royal Artillery Regiment (RAD) will, by 2009, be able to raise its second Battalion equipped with the ‘Keris’ Astros 2 (Artillery Saturation Rocket System) multiple launch rocket system (MLRS), thanks to the Ministry of Finance recently giving the green light to the Ministry of Defence (MINDEF) to conclude contractual negotiations with the original equipment manufacturer Avibras Aerospacial SA of Brazil.
The Gemas-based 51st Battalion of the RAD, known as 51 RAD (and attached to the Malacca-based 3 Division), is currently equipped with 18 ‘Keris’ Astros 2 MLRS launchers that were ordered in November 2000 and delivered 20 months later.
The contract, worth RM791.92 million, included the supply of 1,000 SS-30 30km-range rockets, 224 SS-60 60km-range rockets, 576 SS-80 80km-range rockets along with SS-09 training rockets. The to-be-inked contract for equipping the new Battalion—52 RAD—is valued at RM950 million.
The Astros 2 MLRS includes a fleet of vehicles comprising the Universal Multiple Launcher (AV-LMU) capable of firing five kinds of rockets with different calibers and diameters; Ammunition Supply Vehicle (AV-RMD) for resupplying the AV-LMU and carrying two complete loads for each launcher; Avibras AV-VBL (Viaturas Blindadas Leves) 4 x 4 light armoured vehicles using the command and control vehicle/fire-control system (AV-VCC) to provide the Battalion-level command with coordination and direction of firing missions for up to 3 Astros 2 Batteries; Mobile Workshops for electronic and mechanic field maintenance of the system; and an Electronic Fire-Control Unit (AV-UCF) for facilitating the procedures of fire direction using a tracking radar and ballistics computer.
A typical Astros 2 Battery configuration comprises six AV-LMU Universal Multiple Launchers, six AV-RMD Ammunition Supply Vehicles together with an AV-UCF Fire Control Unit. The AV-VCC Command and Control Vehicle/Fire-Control Unit together with two mobile workshop vehicles are stationed at the Battalion headquarters. The 127mm SS-30 rocket can be loaded with 32 rounds per launcher and has a range between 9km and 30km. The 300mm SS-60 and SS-80 rockets can be loaded with four rounds per launcher, and has a range between 20km and 80km.
The Malaysian Army currently has 16 artillery Regiments (medium field artillery and air defence), each with three Batteries. While 10 Regiments are equipped with 105mm pack howitzers, two Regiments—Gemas-based 21 and 22 RAD—are equipped with 28 DENEL/LIW-built 155mm/45-calibre G-5 Mk2000 towed howitzers and 12 BAE Systems-built FH-70 155mm 39-calibre towed howitzers. Future plans call for re-equipping two existing artillery Regiments with truck-mounted, lightweight, motorised 155mm/52-calibre howitzers. Systems already believed top have been offered include BAE Systems/SWS Defence’s FH-77BWL52 Archer...
http://www.tempur.com.my/dcp.news.view.asp?newsID=232&categoryID=12
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According the Tempur source , it seem that MY did buy some SS-60/80, but there seem to be no official record of it, other sources said seem to indicate mainly SS-30, in fact the last live firing was conducted using SS-30 , we will have to see whether there will be another SS-80 live firing .........
The complete article can be found here scanned by Spidy:
http://militarynuts.com/index.php?showtopic=861&st=375 -
i wonder how many arty units does singapore have. not counting the ones that are attached to infantry and armour units as part of their estab.
malaysia has 18. i feel that's quite alot already. -
There's only one BN for each Division. Anything more.. we will have to silence you. The only type of arty attached to Infantry and armour units (organic) are 120mm mortar. Which in my view arent really really "arty" Not that mortar is not dangerous with they 130 metres wounding radius from ball bearings but that's still rather local support.Originally posted by beavan:i wonder how many arty units does singapore have. not counting the ones that are attached to infantry and armour units as part of their estab.
malaysia has 18. i feel that's quite alot already. -
mortar is use sharpnel right?Originally posted by CM06:Not that mortar is not dangerous with they 130 metres wounding radius from ball bearings but that's still rather local support. -
Mortar's unique weapon. From what i remember
Mortar use shorter range, higher arc artillery. It's rather quiet vs Howitzers...more like a puff vs a kaboom.
If i remember correct, Mortar Bomb is a shell. It consists of Explosive + ball bearings. A direct hit from a mortar on a lightly armoured vehicle will result in a kill... It has a high amount of explosive ..like a bomb drop by aeroplanes. It has sharpnel as it's encased in a shell. I remember watching an old video how they test mortar effectiveness. They hang clear plastic bags filled with red water on scarecrows and plant them randomly in a wide field. Bags up to 130/150 metres away have be puncture...it's more likely a result of ball bearings as the holes i remember were round...The kill radius of a mortar (120mm) is at least 20 metres vs 5m for handgrenades and 10m for 40mm grenades.
What i remember clearly is, if the mortar is flying...hide....else most likely you dont need to breath through your nostrils... -
Collateral damage is expected in any war, it does not matter whether SS-30 or SS0-80, even 81 mortar which all can hit us becos we are so bloody near.
Likewise with our large number of 155mm howitzers, 120mm mortar we could very well flaten Johore.
If we are getting MLRS, or Himars , high possibility that we will be getting 70km GPS guided GMLRS, perhaps even GPS guided ATACMS where the Blk1A version has a range of 300km, at that range we could hit KL!!!!!
Even with no ATACMS , we could still able to get Israeli GPS guided EXTRA which has a range above 130km which could be incorporated into MLRS system.
So counter battery measure is being look at the moment.
Currently Israel is working on Iron Dome anti art/missile protection system ( funding provided by another nation, SG perhaps? ) and may also looking Skyguard THEL system, when they are ready, I am not surprise that we will get these system as well.
Anyway whatever system we are getting, there is no 100% gurantee that we are completely free from arty attack, that is why ppl talking abt Mersing line, a buffer zone to prevent further attack against SG via arty.
But the best deterance is our superiority over them in term of qty as well as quality, we have at least 3x more arty pieces, IFVs and MBTs, light tanks etc as compare to them, we also have almost 4x more fighters plus other goodies that they dun even have,we are moving toward 3G NCW armed forces whereas they are still forming their first combined arms Div, it is a war that they will be stupid to start!!!
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a SG-MY war is the most stupid thing both countries could do.
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our neighbour is a country whose DPM has no qualms about using the words "war" in diplomatic correspondences, whose army colonels talk openly about poisoning the water supply in times of war, where members of the ruling party openly waves krisses and talk about maintaining the ascendancy of the majority race there. When the turd hits the fan, I don't think they'll be thinking of moral high grounds, they'll be thinking of genocide.Originally posted by Arthas79:I fully appreciate your scenario in the context of this discussion. But I posit that the MAF would not directly attack any densely populated area; not unless we do so first. That would include commercial areas and industrial ones as well. The CBD may not have as many people at night but the numbers are still substantial. The same goes for for industrial zones as well. They would not do so because they fully understand that we would retaliate in the same manner and the result would be a catastrophic lost in industrial and commercial capability on the part of Malaysia; all the more so given the SAF`s ability to inflict more harm on them; several orders of magnitude more.
Secondly, they would not want to lose the moral high ground by attacking a non-military target. Not only would it make it extremely hard for them to justify such an action but the leverage she seeks when she goes to the negotiating table to discuss terms of ceasefire or an end to the conflict would evaporate. She is attacking an important financial node/centre in used not just by Singapore but many other countries as well. The impact would be felt by many other countries using the financial centre as well; and highly likely seriously. It may even push other countries to initiate counter-productive actions against Malaysia. This may come in the form of sanctions and may even culminate in military actions in support of Singapore.
Thirdly, why choose a non-military attack when presented with an opportunity to inflict harm(albiet a small one) on Singapore`s military complex; hence limiting(where possible)or slowing down Singapore`s push up north ?
There are risks in every war. The war would undeniably be brought closer home; right to the streets of Malaysia. If this realisation does not filter through into the masses of our population, then the onus is on the incumbent government to inform the population of the severity of the situation. You would expect some collateral damage; intended or otherwise.
Do I think they'll be unpredictable and stupid and attack our housing estates and city center etc ? ... yes of course, I don't even expect them to keep to the geneva convention ...
but hey, some good may actually come out of such a scenario after all, a rocket attack in any housing estate will kill and injure people from every ethnicity, maybe, just maybe, we can come together as a country then ... I think ahmad would behave the same way as ah beng if their flats and toyotas get demolished.
*touches wood of course. -
I do not disagree that we should prepare our defences well against any possible form of attack.
But I would still maintain the view that rational heads would prevail in any conflict. My reason being that we would already have gone to war by now. Rhetoric is in the realm of politics. Reality is an entirely different thing. They are fully aware of the ramifications of attacking our civilian areas and waging war against us.
Consider the stream of callous and warmongering comments during the height of the Mad-hatter versus Singapore conflict. They know thier limits. In fact, the old man even conceded that there is little they can do to take what they want because the alternative is a war which they could ill afford.
Consider the reaction of the RMN to RSN`s deployment of the Formidable class frigates. RMN`s chief of navy had actually said that it would help SEA in balancing off India and China.
Still, I would expect collateral damage to our country; even if they come in the form of infiltrators. However, I do not think our civilian areas would be targetted unless we do the same first. -
Anyway whatever system we are getting, there is no 100% gurantee that we are completely free from arty attack, that is why ppl talking abt Mersing line, a buffer zone to prevent further attack against SG via arty.
Mersing line Gary eh? From Tim Huxley ? That is kinnda out-dated
I hope he managed to get a good view of the recent National Day Parade from his office which has a magnificient view. He is a wonderful person. -
I heard there will be a 2nd installment coming soon........Originally posted by Arthas79:Mersing line Gary eh? From Tim Huxley ? That is kinnda out-dated I hope he managed to get a good view of the recent National Day Parade from his office which has a magnificient view. He is a wonderful person.
Many changes since then, so I hope there will be some unexpected info. -
I heard there will be a 2nd installment coming soon........
I remembered him telling me that there would be updates. Perhaps, a newer edition.
Many changes since then, so I hope there will be some unexpected info.
regards,
Faz -
In some cases mortars actually prevail over all other types of arty becos of its unique trajectory...Originally posted by CM06:There's only one BN for each Division. Anything more.. we will have to silence you. The only type of arty attached to Infantry and armour units (organic) are 120mm mortar. Which in my view arent really really "arty" Not that mortar is not dangerous with they 130 metres wounding radius from ball bearings but that's still rather local support.
Example when enemy is entrenched on the reverse side of the crest, normal arty is quite useless as the flatter trajectory makes it difficult to target trenches on the reverse side of a hill crest.. But a mortar can.
This was the case in Korea, where both sides fought over the hilly terrain and each side took turns to dig in. -
Honestly, I've yet to see a conflict after WW2 where level heads prevailed. Every conflict in the 20th and 21st century has seen atrocities on large scales. If it ain't genocides, its suicide bombings.
Desperate situations may force desperate people to desperate measures. I'm not saying the MAF will hit our CBDs our housing estates for sure. Just that they have capability to do so, and the cost to us would be high. Knowing that they may not win by attacking/hampering our military directly, threatening our financial centers could cause us to re-consider and begin negotiations before we can establish our objectives.
I'm just being imaginative and won't rule out that possibility. -
Not so long ago Mahathir had made a comment about war between neighbor he said that there are too many relatives stay between both end of the causeway and that SG is densely populated any conflict will result in heavy civilian casualty.
That show that MY military already know they cannot avoid civilian casualty, it is going to happen, but if situation become desperate for them when survival become primary goals political correctness put aside civilian target will deem justified to deter against a population of aggressor.
I believe MY defence strategy is to stop SAF in JH itself and drive SAF back to SG cross over and reclaim SG with the help of Indo. (didnÂ’t mean to lob them into this discussion) any fight if it happen is not going to be a gentlemen war. -
MY and Indo have no love of each other, if anything, the Indos will help us instead, SM Goh himself mentioned before that our existence provided an additional balance of power in south east asia between MY and Indo. To think about it, why would Indo want to sacrifice her soldiers, to help expand MY's territory ? ....Originally posted by Arapahoe:Not so long ago Mahathir had made a comment about war between neighbor he said that there are too many relatives stay between both end of the causeway and that SG is densely populated any conflict will result in heavy civilian casualty.
That show that MY military already know they cannot avoid civilian casualty, it is going to happen, but if situation become desperate for them when survival become primary goals political correctness put aside civilian target will deem justified to deter against a population of aggressor.
I believe MY defence strategy is to stop SAF in JH itself and drive SAF back to SG cross over and reclaim SG with the help of Indo. (didnÂ’t mean to lob them into this discussion) any fight if it happen is not going to be a gentlemen war.
Lots of MY's politicians' words are for domestic consumption of course, their electoral base likes such things, but then there are politicians, and there are banana republic politicians, responsible statemen shouldn't and wouldn't talk like the way some of those northern chaps do, hence they are dangerous, because they won't be predictable according to logic. The mathematics of war would be lost on them.
Neways, back to the topic, I've mentioned this in this forum in various threads before already, but it'll be good to reiterate it here again, since we are now finally getting some MLRS of our own; MLRS in MY's hands would be a strategic weapon against singapore, but MLRS in our hands would just be a tactical weapon against MY ... our lack of strategic depth has never been more apparent ... there are now rockets that can easily cross the entire span of Singapore in the unpredictable northerner's hands ... I think things got more dangerous after they got it, since that forces us to stick to our old pre-emptive strike strategy ... -
Actually I think it's the opposite - The MAF MLRS is to discourage us from launching any pre-emptive strikes or moving into and holding JH.Originally posted by Fatum:I think things got more dangerous after they got it, since that forces us to stick to our old pre-emptive strike strategy ...
Even if we take out all their airfields in the first strike we can't possibly know where each and every single one of their Astros is as these things are mobile and can fire from any small piece of clearing or plantation.
They can remain undetected until firing by then which it is too late.
What we need is a anti-rocket defence system like the Patriot.
The alleged inaccuracy of the Astros also give them a good excuse for demolishing a few HDB blocks in Woodlands or AMK etc.
Why target our CBD when the threat against our concentrated housing is so much more grave? We can't evacuate all the housing estates. -
The Russians have a huge mortar, the 2S4 self propelled 240mm mortar, which they still use. Leaves very large craters.Originally posted by chino65:In some cases mortars actually prevail over all other types of arty becos of its unique trajectory...
Example when enemy is entrenched on the reverse side of the crest, normal arty is quite useless as the flatter trajectory makes it difficult to target trenches on the reverse side of a hill crest.. But a mortar can.
This was the case in Korea, where both sides fought over the hilly terrain and each side took turns to dig in. -
I'm just being imaginative and won't rule out that possibility.
Yeah, I agree that we must prepare for any eventuality. Even if the northerners decide to shoot themselves in the foot several times over in a mad rush to protect themselves.Not so long ago Mahathir had made a comment about war between neighbor he said that there are too many relatives stay between both end of the causeway and that SG is densely populated any conflict will result in heavy civilian casualty.
What makes you think Malaysia is not densely populated? It depends on where you hit. At current force levels, the RSAF could flatten anything in the peninsula. The RMAF would not be around by then to appreciate the new decor. The stupidity of such actions would be disastrous for Malaysia; internally and externally.
Singapore would have the opportunity to push back Malaysia`s economy to the stone age and inflict more harm on Malaysia`s civilian population with impunity. She would have the global community behind her during and after the suspension of conflict. When everyone is picking up the pieces, Malaysia would be severely at the losing end. Of course, this is assuming that the Malaysians do lose thier brains. -
Actually I think it's the opposite - The MAF MLRS is to discourage us from launching any pre-emptive strikes or moving into and holding JH.
As discussed, it would be unthinkable for the SAF to not target the Astross at the start of any conflict. Wars take time to develop with clear discernible signs.
Even if we take out all their airfields in the first strike we can't possibly know where each and every single one of their Astros is as these things are mobile and can fire from any small piece of clearing or plantation.
They can remain undetected until firing by then which it is too late.
To the contrary, Singapore`s huge intelligence gathering capability(air, satellites, singnit, etc) would make it very hard for the Malaysians to move anything around without being seen. Suffice it to say, Singapore has a real-time picture on the ground. Conversely, Malaysia does not have this capability. How many Astross launchers would survive our initial lightning strike? Most likely none. Assuming a few(what the heck..assume all) are not destroyed and launched some quick salvos before being immediately targetted and bombed/destroyed themselves but at what cost? That would not stop Singapore from crossing the Tebrau and invading Malaysia. But that would just enrage our citizen army even more. Just look at how much hardened the Israelis have become. People will adapt in order to survive.
Concievably, these unguided rockets would be easy to shoot down even with our current SAM assets. At issue is whether we want to waste expensive missiles on such cheap rockets. Therein lies one of the goals of the Israeli `Iron Dome' project which is to develop a cheap system to kill cheap targets.
What we need is a anti-rocket defence system like the Patriot.
Realistically, rockets, like artillery shells do not flatten large buildings. They do damage them. Their war-heads are small; in many cases smaller than tube artillery shells.
The alleged inaccuracy of the Astros also give them a good excuse for demolishing a few HDB blocks in Woodlands or AMK etc.
A major point to note is that Singapore will attack first and yet she retains the ability to hit back harder in the unlikely event when struck first. -
Neways, back to the topic, I've mentioned this in this forum in various threads before already, but it'll be good to reiterate it here again, since we are now finally getting some MLRS of our own; MLRS in MY's hands would be a strategic weapon against singapore, but MLRS in our hands would just be a tactical weapon against MY ... our lack of strategic depth has never been more apparent ... there are now rockets that can easily cross the entire span of Singapore in the unpredictable northerner's hands ... I think things got more dangerous after they got it, since that forces us to stick to our old pre-emptive strike strategy ...
How tactical and strategic are our Himars ? With guided rockets, they can be very strategic in nature with long-lasting effects against key targets.
Remember our tube artillery. It would be unlikely for the Malaysians to array thier artillery pieces(especially the Astross) when they are within range of our own artillery(40km) and especially since our artillery out-number thier artillery greatly.
The Himars would be able to accomodate a variety of rockets with ranges from 30km to 300 km. Like all MLRS systems, range matters and the further they are, the less rockets(and often smaller war-heads) they can fire. And in the case of the 150 km Israeli guided rockets like the Lorad and 300 km guided ATACMS, the Astross would have to be stationed deeper in Malaysian territory rendering these equipment practically useless where bombing mainland Singapore is concerned and even our forces in Johor.
Would the Malaysians risk putting thier most prized assets within range of our superior and arguably more accurate rockets then? I think not. Hence, I reckon that we intend to effectively push our virtual safety zone of influence deeper into Malaysia. Not that we cannot absorb any artillery strike. In addition, we are even upgrading our current SAM systems and related defence equipment.
Would not this bring back both nations to the status quo before the advent of the MLRS? I certainly think so.
Of course, other systems like our SAMs would play a part as well. And of course, this is not counting our other strategic assets which we have always been rumored to have; being in the form of long range cruise missiles indigenously developed or together with Israel. Perchance, we could see some of them being officially declared in the near future.
Comments? This is very interesting. -
Cruise missile? Rather wait for MY to procure it before any official announcement. Correct me if i m wrong singapore has long embraced cruise missile technology just waiting for the right time to declare lol