Singapore plans multiple rocket launcher, IFV acquisitions
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Let's get back on topic.
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Arthas79... do what ever you want... sighh...
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you obviously have no idea wat is loyalty...Originally posted by tankfanatic:look.. im under contract building roads..what the heck im gonna do?
i always opposed any singapore malaysia bashing because i have family in johor...infact half of my family tree in batu pahat trace even before the ww2... thats why i always against these kind of topic.
its like betraying my other half ok. I even have an uncle who died of heart attack burried there..the bond is close.
i dont like hearing singaporean saying thing such as...'making all the malaysian wona our whore after the war..bla bla...its just wrong for me and my family.
if thats doesnt makes you understand ..i dont know anything else.. but im not a malaysian.
i also always felt compelled to reduce the sentiment.... and i always opposed any thing that support war between these two nation.
how does killing your relatives or turning malaysian woman into SAF whores... suppose to be an act of loyalty???
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how does killing your relatives or turning malaysian woman into SAF @%*^#s... suppose to be an act of loyalty???
u misunderstood me..
i meant it as a precedent...because i have encounter a fellow singaporean who is hell bent in killing all malaysian if there is a war...
loyalty u dont have to question...
but i still in touch with my relatives there..to such extend i dont want any war between two nation that could seperate us...
whats wrong with that. -
killing all malaysian??Originally posted by tankfanatic:u misunderstood me..
i meant it as a precedent...because i have encounter a fellow singaporean who is hell bent in killing all malaysian if there is a war...
loyalty u dont have to question...
but i still in touch with my relatives there..to such extend i dont want any war between two nation that could seperate us...
whats wrong with that.
first i doubt your sanity for even believing such a possibility.. secondly.. needless to say.. genocide is a war crime...
and lastly... nobody wants a war.. but hell if it comes down to that.. i hope you know whose side you are on...
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first i doubt your sanity for even believing such a possibility.. secondly.. needless to say.. genocide is a war crime...
well i didnt actually believe it...but it doesnt make me happy to read it...
hey i hang out here just to loose the home sickness ok...if any one doubt that and dont want me here its fine because i vist the http://www.sggirls.com/ more than here (didnt join the forum though..just saving the pic...ala to refresh the view) -
this is an analysis for a ww2 katyusya rocket!
You did not even have the opportunnity to read the whole article since the link is dead now and you are commenting on it?!?
That article was a few years old and analyses all form of rocket technology at that time from unguided, to trajactory correction to modern guided rocket.
The quote I have refered to is abt unguided rocket, regardless whether it is katyusya, Astros etc, becos all of them are unguided system.i dont think it will become obsolete. the only reason guided technology were emerging for MLRS is because to reduce the collateral damage done by the previous saturation (i emphasized this) MLRS. If the system were in the hand of a nation that dont give a damn about collateral will definately use this system.
In a way true, but Astro will need to fire a lot of rockets but with a lot of small bomblets, some may hit some strategic impt target but will it destroyed a hardened target with their small bomblet???
While i think you are right about the the accuracy of one rocket...please bare in mind that the astros can ripple fire a salvo 4 rounds of SS-60/SS-80 rocket, caliber 300mm (which can cater for a bigger cluster munitions warhead) and has a range between 20km and 80km.
Since the the command and control vehicle/fire-control system (AV-VCC) can coordinate 3 batteries of Astros2 (six AV-LMU Universal Multiple Launchers per batteries) to saturate (i emphasized this again) an area of 1 square kilometers. Which mean 108 cluster munitions warhead in 1 salvo (and they can fire riple salvo and by using the computer fire control can set it to fall at the same time), i cant see the logic in saying the Astross 2 as unaccurate and obsolete.
A GPS guided will certainly could with their single large warhead , for example GMLRS with 90kg HE round with CEP of 5m will able to destroy a target by 2~3 rds.
Just watch the video I have posted.
Next in term counter battery performance, what will the outcome say 6 Astros launchers with say SS-60, (4x6=24 unguided rockets) against say 1 MLRS with 12 GMLRS rockets at the range of say 60km.
I could tell you that the 1 MLRS with 12 GPS guided GMLRS rockets could almost certainly able to destroy almost all the vehicles in the Astros battery , whereas the Astros will depend on the almost random probability of hitting the one single MLRS.
So when facing a guided rocket system , Astros with their unguide rocket is certainly obsolete!!!
Lastly the article say that for unguided rocket system of 1% CEP, any range above 40km is I quote "ineffective".
Becos the spread will be wider at longer range, you dun even know what you will be hitting at long range thus "ineffective".
I.e. tactically useless at that range for an unguided system.
I have already make the calculation in the old thread, it is not something I have invented but a mathematical fact use to calculate CEP, it is staggering!!! -
Just for the record, S'pore has never EVER used the word war. M'sia however has one several occasions although they did try to cover it up.
Classical e.g. was when that idiot Syed Hamid Albar said that S'pore has two choices get water or go to war, only to later ask reporters when he ever said the war word.
Having MLRS which are unguided to me, says a lot about how much they care or rather DO NOT care about collateral damage. Some might argue its there to be a deterrent. I say bullocks! If war does break out, don't expect me to believe they wouldn't use it!
Even the US does not use its MLRS in crowded areas. If memory serves corectly, it was last used in the vast desserts of Iraq. Certainly not in an Iraqi neighbourhood. -
In a way true, but Astro will need to fire a lot of rockets but with a lot of small bomblets, some may hit some strategic impt target but will it destroyed a hardened target with their small bomblet???
it will notA GPS guided will certainly could with their single large warhead , for example GMLRS with 90kg HE round with CEP of 5m will able to destroy a target by 2~3 rds.
there is no doubt its effectivess... my point is the area saturation artillery still can do a lot of damage quickly for example a forward hq which layout and configuration is unknown because of good camo.Just watch the video I have posted.
cool ... ive seen one in the 'future weapon..in discovery channel' too.Next in term counter battery performance, what will the outcome say 6 Astros launchers with say SS-60, (4x6=24 unguided rockets) against say 1 MLRS with 12 GMLRS rockets at the range of say 60km.
the later are better...I could tell you that the 1 MLRS with 12 GPS guided GMLRS rockets could almost certainly able to destroy almost all the vehicles in the Astros battery , whereas the Astros will depend on the almost random probability of hitting the one single MLRS.
aaa. this depend on each side counter fire skills and camo...So when facing a guided rocket system , Astros with their unguide rocket is certainly obsolete!!!
ofcourse a guided weapon is better but that doesnt make the astross obsolete. Its like saying dumb bomb is obsolete..because of the GPS bomb yet a lot of armed forces still use it... because..well its still explode if hit.Lastly the article say that for unguided rocket system of 1% CEP, any range above 40km is I quote "ineffective".
Becos the spread will be wider at longer range, you dun even know what you will be hitting at long range thus "ineffective".
I.e. tactically useless at that range for an unguided system.I have already make the calculation in the old thread, it is not something I have invented but a mathematical fact use to calculate CEP, it is staggering!!!
where is the old thread? im intrigue. -
SAF number not even updated, there is still 54 Primus plus unknown number of Pegesus SLWH, and if since u added in 105mm Pack Howitzer , then 120mm mortar should be added in as well since they have similar range.
SAF (not the current numbers but what the heck) artillery
38 M71s 155mm Towed Howitzer
54 FH88 155mm Howitzer
18 FH2000 155mm Howitzer
60 Giat 105mm LG1 Towed Howitzer
MAF artillery
Avibras AV-LMU Astros II launcher Qty: 18
Oto Melara 105mm Pack Howitzer Qty: ~150
VSEL FH-70B 155mm/39-calibre Qty: 15
Denel G5 Mk III 155mm/45-calibreQty: 28
SAF have 1 battery of 120mm mortar in most infantry and armoured units , and that is very large number, at least 2 hundreds, most probably more!!! -
ofcourse a guided weapon is better but that doesnt make the astross obsolete. Its like saying dumb bomb is obsolete..because of the GPS bomb yet a lot of armed forces still use it... because..well its still explode if hit.
A WW2 bolt action rifle could still kill anyone, but do you want your army to use them as oppose to fully automatic assualt rifle?
Likewise, if now with guided rocket system available in the mkt , why do u want to equip your army with unguided rocket system?
Every army will like to fully utilised their manpower as well as funds, to be as effective as possible with their limited resources, so why the hell any army want to buy unguided system when your adversary could possibly buy a guided rocket system?
When that is choice of better system available , the older system then become obsolete.where is the old thread? im intrigue.
I have already posted it.
Let me do calculation here:
As I said unguided rocket system have CEP of at least 1%, Astros II CEP is unknown but I heard it is abt 3%.
Here some reading for you:
http://members.tripod.com/~nigelef/errorsmistakes.htm
Well, I use 1%( as this best for unguided rocket system) at range 89km ( max range of SS-80) to calculate the number for you.
At one Probable error(PE), 50% of the rds will fall in it.
Which means at 89km at 1% CEP, 50% of the rds will fall within a radius abt 890m.
Within 1 to 2 PE, 32% of the rds will fall within radius of 890m to 1780m.
Within 2 to 3 PE, 14% of the rds will fall within radius of 1780m to 2670m.
And lastly, Within 3 to 4 PE, 4% of the rds will fall within radius of 2670m to 3560m!!!!
The above is already the best scenario, what if the actual CEP worser than 1% ?!? -
Why is this thread turning into a M'sia vs Singapore thread?
The Astros II isn't a guided warhead, neither does it feature any guidance correction system. It was first produced in the 1980s. Even better, Avibras, which made the system, very nearly collapsed and not much further development was done, although they claim to be working and producing a new warhead.
Essentially, Malaysia bought an old system at rock bottom prices as usual. -
This is just an observation, SG is obverse "small" of an area and we are densely populated. So long as Astro don't fall into both end of the Sea it will achieve its psychological objectives - Fear to the general population to destroy the fighting morale.
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You see MLRS achieve its objectives - Projecting Fear.Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:
Why is this thread turning into a M'sia vs Singapore thread?
The Astros II isn't a guided warhead, neither does it feature any guidance correction system. It was first produced in the 1980s. Even better, Avibras, which made the system, very nearly collapsed and not much further development was done, although they claim to be working and producing a new warhead.
Essentially, Malaysia bought an old system at rock bottom prices as usual. -
Fear???Originally posted by Arapahoe:This is just an observation, SG is obverse "small" of an area and we are densely populated. So long as Astro don't fall into both end of the Sea it will achieve its psychological objectives - Fear to the general population to destroy the fighting morale.
It will enrage the entire nation, a sneak attack against SG is an act of war against SG, the response from us is not MAF could handle atm!!!!
Afterall, the poor CEP Astro II is highly unlikely to stop us from fully mobilised to move up north!!!
Fear is for the weaker army and airforce!!!!
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yeah .....Originally posted by gary1910:Fear???
It will enrage the entire nation, a sneak attack against SG is an act of war against SG, the response from us is not MAF could handle atm!!!!
Afterall, the poor CEP Astro II is highly unlikely to stop us from fully mobilised to move up north!!!
Fear is for the weaker army and airforce!!!!
I shudder to think what the average reservist unker would do to MAF soldiers if one of the rockets demolished his HDB flat ... or flattened his precious toyota in the multi-story carpark .... -
Originally posted by gary1910:
Prescisely. it has not enough and unlikely to stop any advancement. But it has pyschological usage.
Fear???
It will enrage the entire nation, a sneak attack against SG is an act of war against SG, the response from us is not MAF could handle atm!!!!
[b]Afterall, the poor CEP Astro II is highly unlikely to stop us from fully mobilised to move up north!!! Fear is for the weaker army and airforce!!!! [/b] -
Originally posted by Fatum:yeah .....
I shudder to think what the average reservist unker would do to MAF soldiers if one of the rockets demolished his HDB flat ... or flattened his precious toyota in the multi-story carpark .... Right on !!! I can almost hear the long stream of hokkien vulgarities -
And it will actually inflame tensions and make our grunts very, very pissed off.Originally posted by Arapahoe:Prescisely. it has not enough and unlikely to stop any advancement. But it has pyschological usage.
The use of collateral damage against a citizen army is one of the worst moves that any opponent can use. -
Pearl harbour is good example, after the attack, US decided to involved in WW2 and eventually lopped 2 A bombs over Japan.
The last Lebanon war has the same effect, when IDF started to mobilise , there were more soldier turned up than what it is supposed to be, more than 100% turn up rate!!!
All these angry grunts just want to fight and get their revenge. -
When Malaysia goes to court to sue for peace, she would do so under the Geneva conventions. A series of negotiations would ensue. What leverage would she have if she is found guilty of targetting civilians wantonly? The MAF is not so unintelligent. I do not doubt that the MAF would seek to disable Singapore`s key structures but she would use precision strike weapons just as we would. If they do not have it now, they would undeniably buy them in the future. Not the unreliable Astross. The Astross would be shooting at our troops in Malaysia if they manage to escape the initial round of strikes from the SAF that is.
At any rate, the SAF would be striking first. And believe you in me that the Astross and other key equipment and structures would be targetted first. But honestly, we seek to disable and are more than capable of annihiliating thier command and control structures and key equipment. Hence, it would be unlikely that the Astross would be used against mainland Singapore.
This third reason makes it almost impossible for them to use the Astross against Singapore. How are they going to shoot at our bases when we have foriegn forces(read US) stationed there? They would not even dare.
Oh by the way, rockets do not bring down buildings. But they sure will make anyone furious.
The pyschological element of a rocket attack is no different than an artillery strike or a bomb attack. You cannot even differentiate between these strikes because you cannot see them coming. But you can certainly enjoy the new decor and smoke plume. So, these are things which people would get used to as the war progress. Not that they have a choice. -
Sorry for the diversion. But anyway, is this potential purchase telling of a shift in gear with respect to procurement where our direction remains the same?
To use the SAF`s own nomenclature, we have been buying `sensors' as of late; Phalcons, Hermes, etc. Has the time come for us to start buying `shooters' or more advanced and powerful `shooters'? So, in effect, we would be seeing more powerful weapons being purchased? Good times... -
aiya
why do you need all those when you can have
GUNDAM -
I do see a great structural changes in SAF, for example the one bde wheeled IFVs maybe the formation of a new mechanised bde, perhaps specialised in urban warfare.Originally posted by Arthas79:Sorry for the diversion. But anyway, is this potential purchase telling of a shift in gear with respect to procurement where our direction remains the same?
In fact we r getting lot of new AFV recently especially the tracked BX w/o the retirement of the M113, so in that sense we are expanding our armoured force as well, and to support it, we have new Primus SPH, and Mechanised Igla.
So recent procurement might not be just for the NCW/3G army but also great structural changes of the orbat of SAF.
With the greater awareness of the battlefield via the various sensors, mean we will be better in detecting enemy locations, of course more advanced and powerful `shooters' will be in better position to fully "utilising" that awareness.Originally posted by Arthas79:To use the SAF`s own nomenclature, we have been buying `sensors' as of late; Phalcons, Hermes, etc. Has the time come for us to start buying `shooters' or more advanced and powerful `shooters'? So, in effect, we would be seeing more powerful weapons being purchased? Good times...
But at the end of day , we still need to look at cost effectiveness and available funds.
So far Mindef have no problem in buying equipment that have shown great effectiveness in recent wars, for example the Apaches in CAS and against armour, and possible purchase of MLRS with GMLRS which shown great effectiveness in Iraq and Afganistan which to me are great buys and greatly upgrade SAF fighting capability. -
hahahaha the BEST OT post here!!!Originally posted by Fatum:yeah .....
I shudder to think what the average reservist unker would do to MAF soldiers if one of the rockets demolished his HDB flat ... or flattened his precious toyota in the multi-story carpark .... 