Singapore plans multiple rocket launcher, IFV acquisitions
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How about investment in equipment to intercept such weapons?
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Waste of public money!
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On the surface, maybe.Originally posted by :Waste of public money!
If you're in defense policymaking, you'll take those words back real fast when you understand why this is not a luxury but a need. -
Pegasus is wheeled!Originally posted by storywolf:More logical is the tracked on based on SAF trend in arty ... with Primus tracked so they can keep with with armour forces, I would say - they more likely to want to deploy it with primus with armour forces also.
Also these are value assets, with tracked version - there is some armour protected against counter arty, thus tracked version is more likely.
But wheeled ones are considerably more agile? Launch liao can faster scoot off... Thought tracked ones can provide more mobility over rough land but there ain't much of it in sg? 
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Read this old thread below carefully, there are quote from many link that dead now, basically unguided rocket will have minimum CEP of 1% of range, I heard there was rumour that Astros actually has CEP of 3%, anyway CEP of an unguided rocket is at best at 1%, this is as far as such technology could go.Originally posted by tankfanatic:can compare the astross with katyusha meh?
And at range above 40 km, unguided rocket will be tactically useless as mentioned in a Russian magazine by a Russian rocket scientist and I quote:Firing small- and large-caliber rockets featuring traditional aeroballistic configurations and with mean deviations from the target of about ~1%X of the firing range and a consistency of up to 1/150 becomes ineffective at a range in excess of 40 km.
I did a calculation of rocket with CEP of 1% at range at 89km, it could be off target as far as 3560m!!!!
So does sound more like katyusha?!?
Read this thread for more info:
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=65643&page=0
In fact I predicted then that unguided rocket will be obsolete soon due to emerging guided technology for MLRS.
Now everyone is going for trajectory correction or/and GPS guided rocket/missile, the US army already stop using M26 unguided rocket, only GMLRS and ATACM.
In fact in Iraq, GMLRS is nicknamed as "60km Sniper"( not exactly true becos range is above 70km) with CEP of only 5m, it could precisely hit insurgent targets in the middle of the city with little or no collateral damage.
That is the future trend of MLRS and SAF want it in their inventory, land based strategic precision strike capability!!! -
Actually w the Primus is still under going testing, i asked a Arty spec which came to my camp together with the then yet to be revealed Primus. He told me that we already have multiple rocket launchers at that time which is around 2002.Originally posted by |-|05|:4SIR is already being mechanized or shld i say they are testing out the mechanization of infantry with 4SIR.So i guess the requirement will be to fully mechanize our troops.
As for the MRLS......ive heard frm my arty friends that they already have a missile platoon or something like that in his Bn.He said only recently declassified leh i dunno if it's surface to surface or surface to air but since he is frm arty i'm thinking surface to surface.Maybe his unit was trialing them out.Hence us being able to get the systems in so quickly.
So what i am thinking is that this is the same scenario as the Tempest-Leopard case. We already have such assets just that now we are announcing the replacements. This i because Malaysia have already gotten theirs so we can't be accused of starting an arms race or threatening anyone.
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So some are suggesting that instead of a battlefield MLRS role, we're likely to use ours more as single (i.e. BIG) rocket in a more "strategic" role?
As in "you bomb my capital, I bomb your capital".
A bit like how the Iraqis kept firing SCUDS at Israel? -
Must see video.
Iraqi insurgent sniper meet US army "60km Sniper"
http://youtube.com/watch?v=RjpbFlOHFps&mode=related&search= -
Using Pegasus to compare is comparing pistol to rifle like !!!Originally posted by wonderamazement:Pegasus is wheeled! But wheeled ones are considerably more agile? Launch liao can faster scoot off... Thought tracked ones can provide more mobility over rough land but there ain't much of it in sg?
Hello Pegasus is wheeled because it is mostly air-lifted by heli !!! -
Taking into consideration that Singapore is a tiny nation state, any acquisition of Multiple Launched Rocket systems will immediately transform into a strategic asset.Originally posted by chino65:So some are suggesting that instead of a battlefield MLRS role, we're likely to use ours more as single (i.e. BIG) rocket in a more "strategic" role?
As in "you bomb my capital, I bomb your capital".
A bit like how the Iraqis kept firing SCUDS at Israel? -
HIMARS
http://www.missilesandfirecontrol.com/our_products/firesupport/HIMARS/product-HIMARS.shtml
I think it is likely that we will integrate his HIMARS system onto our existing 5- tonners, should we eventually choose HIMARS. -
Not excatly, depending on range for example GMLRS at range above 70km will be more like alternate CAS, ATACM depending on range could also use against strategic impt target for example enemy ADS , command post etc , if they are close enough.Originally posted by chino65:So some are suggesting that instead of a battlefield MLRS role, we're likely to use ours more as single (i.e. BIG) rocket in a more "strategic" role?
As in "you bomb my capital, I bomb your capital".
A bit like how the Iraqis kept firing SCUDS at Israel?
More like alternative to JDAM and other airborne PGM. -
Read this old thread below carefully, there are quote from many link that dead now, basically unguided rocket will have minimum CEP of 1% of range, I heard there was rumour that Astros actually has CEP of 3%, anyway CEP of an unguided rocket is at best at 1%, this is as far as such technology could go.
ok i'll read it..too bad the other thread were locked.And at range above 40 km, unguided rocket will be tactically useless as mentioned in a Russian magazine by a Russian rocket scientist and I quote:
this is an analysis for a ww2 katyusya rocket!
quote:
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Firing small- and large-caliber rockets featuring traditional aeroballistic configurations and with mean deviations from the target of about ~1%X of the firing range and a consistency of up to 1/150 becomes ineffective at a range in excess of 40 km.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------I did a calculation of rocket with CEP of 1% at range at 89km, it could be off target as far as 3560m!!!!
no.....
So does sound more like katyusha?!?In fact I predicted then that unguided rocket will be obsolete soon due to emerging guided technology for MLRS.
i dont think it will become obsolete. the only reason guided technology were emerging for MLRS is because to reduce the collateral damage done by the previous saturation (i emphasized this) MLRS. If the system were in the hand of a nation that dont give a damn about collateral will definately use this system.
While i think you are right about the the accuracy of one rocket...please bare in mind that the astros can ripple fire a salvo 4 rounds of SS-60/SS-80 rocket, caliber 300mm (which can cater for a bigger cluster munitions warhead) and has a range between 20km and 80km.
Since the the command and control vehicle/fire-control system (AV-VCC) can coordinate 3 batteries of Astros2 (six AV-LMU Universal Multiple Launchers per batteries) to saturate (i emphasized this again) an area of 1 square kilometers. Which mean 108 cluster munitions warhead in 1 salvo (and they can fire riple salvo and by using the computer fire control can set it to fall at the same time), i cant see the logic in saying the Astross 2 as unaccurate and obsolete.Now everyone is going for trajectory correction or/and GPS guided rocket/missile, the US army already stop using M26 unguided rocket, only GMLRS and ATACM.
yeah and they were the only one can deployed it in large numberIn fact in Iraq, GMLRS is nicknamed as "60km Sniper"( not exactly true becos range is above 70km) with CEP of only 5m, it could precisely hit insurgent targets in the middle of the city with little or no collateral damage.
exactly ! you are right...to reduce the collateral damage.That is the future trend of MLRS and SAF want it in their inventory, land based strategic precision strike capability!!!
good for us -
sigh...not long time ago we bang the malay for having the astross....i wonder how hard they will laugh when they hear this news...
Maybe as jealous as you are seeing as such that we will be getting better stuffs as usual.
But seriously, the arguments `are' about the relative inaccuracy of the Astross which is still a fact. They are unguided rockets. And Himars and other newer western systems will carry guided rockets. The reason why the MAF got the Astross is to reduce the huge gap or lead Singapore has in terms of artillery systems. Singapore`s aritllery arsenal is just massive. Just read your own article you posted silly. It is pointless to compare Singapore and Malaysia. Priorities differ and honestly, Singapore is in a different league completely.
I agree with many of the astute comments made by many posters here. We do not need another run of the mill artillery delivery system. The Himars, etc if acquired will be carrying precision guided rockets or missiles; and most likely from Israel. -
Malaysia would use her Astross as normal artillery systems given the relative lack in artillery systems. Singapore does not have this problem at all since we have a huge arsenal of artillery systems which can do that job. Add that to our huge air-force which can bomb with impunity.
The problem with unguided rockets is that the latter`s accuracy gets more inaccurate the further they go. If you want to destroy strategic targets and hardened targets, you would go for a unitary war-head and not cluster munitions. But that does not mean the GMLRs cannot be configured to carry cluster munitions. Which would want? A rocket which would go off- tangent and hit something esle or an accurate one?
Good luck to them killing of thier own people and destroying thier own buildings if they are not worried about collateral damage. -
Whatever it is, we are sovereign countries & should not unnecessarily b*tch when other countries go shopping.
We seldom if ever complain when the north goes shopping, so the least they should do is return that favour.
I still remember the time when Najib claimed we were being un-neighbourly by getting the Barak missile which was named after former PM Edhul Barak when it actual fact, Barak means lightning in Hebrew.
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How about investment in equipment to intercept such weapons?
In some ways, our surface-to-air capability is already being beefed up with the upgraded I-hawks being able to engage multiple targets 40 km away, newer multi-function radars, etc. Our screen is pretty tight as it is. Add that to revealed plans for new systems which will be acquired very soon and it will get even better. -
Maybe as jealous as you are seeing as such that we will be getting better stuffs as usual.
i dont understand... i get the getting better stuff part..but the front one i dont inderstandBut seriously, the arguments `are' about the relative inaccuracy of the Astross which is still a fact. They are unguided rockets.
yes and it use cluster munition....And Himars and other newer western systems will carry guided rockets. The reason why the MAF got the Astross is to reduce the huge gap or lead Singapore has in terms of artillery systems. Singapore`s aritllery arsenal is just massive. Just read your own article you posted silly. It is pointless to compare Singapore and Malaysia. Priorities differ and honestly, Singapore is in a different league completely.
wait...when didd i post anything about comparing MAF and SAF?.....you dumb f*** you tought i was some one else again!
i have told you before I AM NOT MYVI!!!!I agree with many of the astute comments made by many posters here. We do not need another run of the mill artillery delivery system. The Himars, etc if acquired will be carrying precision guided rockets or missiles; and most likely from Israel.
like i said good for usMalaysia would use her Astross as normal artillery systems given the relative lack in artillery systems. Singapore does not have this problem at all since we have a huge arsenal of artillery systems which can do that job.
SAF (not the current numbers but what the heck) artillery
38 M71s 155mm Towed Howitzer
54 FH88 155mm Howitzer
18 FH2000 155mm Howitzer
60 Giat 105mm LG1 Towed Howitzer
MAF artillery
Avibras AV-LMU Astros II launcher Qty: 18
Oto Melara 105mm Pack Howitzer Qty: ~150
VSEL FH-70B 155mm/39-calibre Qty: 15
Denel G5 Mk III 155mm/45-calibreQty: 28
in this case you are right malaysian arty were less in number than us..... but not lacking as you conceive.The problem with unguided rockets is that the latter`s accuracy gets more inaccurate the further they go.
no dispute in this..its a fact.... hence to reduce this short coming all MLRS munitions were cluster munitions.If you want to destroy strategic targets and hardened targets, you would go for a unitary war-head and not cluster munitions.
of course...who said anything about destroying hardened target using cluster munition (although they have the anti armor and anti runway munition)But that does not mean the GMLRs cannot be configured to carry cluster munitions. Which would want? A rocket which would go off- tangent and hit something esle or an accurate one?
sigh...Good luck to them killing of thier own people and destroying thier own buildings if they are not worried about collateral damage
they actually aim it at us...and our civillian....and yes they didnt care of our collateral . -
SAF?.....you dumb f*** you tought i was some one else again!
You need to be banned for hurling such insults. And yes i am talking about you. And quick to the bait, you justify my concerns time and again. Oh, who is dumb Tanknotsofantastic?in this case you are right malaysian arty were less in number than us..... but not lacking as you conceive.
I dont think the numbers are quite right up there.
if you care to read slowly and `understand', you will see why i have said that the MAF has decided to purchase the Astross to compensate for the
lack of heavy artillery. And why they will be used as normal artillery systems. How would it look without the Astross? Forget the 105mm cannons as militaries are phasing them out due thier age and poor range.they actually aim it at us...and our civillian....and yes they didnt care of our collateral .
Oh yes. Aim at civilians. Fantastic way of throwing yourselves before the UN. Fortunately, the MAF are intelligent. In the first place, it is unlikely you will get any shot fired with the SAF`s pre-emptive strike doctrine. -
look dude..previously in other thread you call me MYVI and didnt even bother to check...then at that thread you bang me for the thing that i did not said .... and keep calling me myvi...
then in this thread again you bang me again for comparing SAF with MAF...which i didnt do...
and again and again you keep saying im a malaysian....
WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM? -
Just read your own article you posted silly. It is pointless to compare Singapore and Malaysia. Priorities differ and honestly, Singapore is in a different league completely.
u said this to me
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------wait...when didd i post anything about comparing MAF and SAF?.....you dumb f*** you tought i was some one else again!
this my reply...
i have told you before I AM NOT MYVI!!!!--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
instead you half quote me to make me look bad..
SAF?.....you dumb f*** you tought i was some one else again!
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You need to be banned for hurling such insults. And yes i am talking about you. And quick to the bait, you justify my concerns time and again. Oh, who is dumb Tanknotsofantastic? -
Oh, who is dumb Tanknotsofantastic?
you are ..because its not 'tankfantastic' but my nick is 'tankfanatic' ...what the heck ...you blind or some thing?
thats you -
Oh well, it was more `general-speak' than anything else when i was talking about comparisons. Afterall, the Astross was mentioned afterall.
Yawn...pretty obvious to everyone you are a "Malaysian" after so many posts now. Especially after that uh " I am a Singaporean but i work in Malaysia" statement not too long ago. Now, it does not look brave to hide under Singapore`s flag see.. -
look.. im under contract building roads..what the heck im gonna do?
i always opposed any singapore malaysia bashing because i have family in johor...infact half of my family tree in batu pahat trace even before the ww2... thats why i always against these kind of topic.
its like betraying my other half ok. I even have an uncle who died of heart attack burried there..the bond is close.
i dont like hearing singaporean saying thing such as...'making all the malaysian wona our whore after the war..bla bla...its just wrong for me and my family.
if thats doesnt makes you understand ..i dont know anything else.. but im not a malaysian.
i also always felt compelled to reduce the sentiment.... and i always opposed any thing that support war between these two nation. -
i dont like hearing singaporean saying thing such as...'making all the malaysian wona our $**@^ after the war..bla bla...its just wrong for me and my family.
Lol. A quickly done `pretext'. Not that you are a good liar.
Your `drama' here would not save you from the fact that you are shamlessly trolling under the guise of a Singaporean. Awwww...It is just wrong for you and your family? These are expressed opinions in a forum. Dont like it. Be somewhere else. And you are in no position to tell Singaporeans here what to write in a place called `Sgforums.' Wanna boast about your sub-par military? Try your own forum. Thank You Very much.
Every now and then, someone likes you come along but almost always fall flat on your face. Just look at the visual garbage you have just posted.