If SAR-21 included in USArmy SandTest Shoot-Off...
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What would happen if SAR -21 is included in the test?
Army Agrees to M4 Sand Test Shoot-Off,Military.com | By Christian Lowe | July 27, 2007---http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,143790,00.html
After months of heated debate, the Army will conduct a side-by-side test shoot next month with its standard-issued carbine to see how well it can withstand extreme dust and sand environments.
2.How SAR-21 perform if it is included in the test?
The tests, which will be conducted at the Army's Aberdeen Test Center in Maryland, will include three other rifles some say are better constructed to withstand the grueling environmental conditions often found in Iraq and Afghanistan.
The service yielded to critics - particularly lawmakers in Congress - who recently ratcheted up the debate over whether the current M4 carbine, manufactured by Colt Defense, is more susceptible to jamming in dusty conditions than other weapons used by Soldiers and special operators.
"The Army agreed to conduct testing of four carbine designs in an extreme dust environment," said Lt. Col. Timothy Chyma, product manager for individual weapons with Program Executive Office Soldier, in an email to Military.com.
"The test results will inform the U.S. Army Infantry Center in the development of a potential new carbine requirement as part of their ongoing capabilities based assessment."...
The shoot off will test the capabilities of the M4/M16 operating system against three other rifles: the Heckler and Koch-built HK416, the FNH USA-designed Mk16 SOCOM Combat Assault Rifle and the previously-shelved, H&K-manufactured XM8 carbine.
All three competitors use a gas-piston operating system that requires less maintenance and has demonstrated in some tests that it can fire accurately even if completely fouled with sand, dust and mud....
top--M16 magazine
bottom--plastic maz so u can see how many rounds left. -
Just need to answer one question.
How long can that round rubber thingie that surrounds the sar-21 lad last 2 day and 1 night laager exercise?
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Pl tell us more!!we are waiting.Originally posted by ditzy:Just need to answer one question.
How long can that round rubber thingie that surrounds the sar-21 lad last 2 day and 1 night laager exercise? -
Not long, because when you get back to camp and send in arms, you can prepare to write statement already.Originally posted by lionnoisy:Pl tell us more!!we are waiting. -
Wa It is interesting--U.S. Special Forces buying 84 upper receiver assemblies for the HK416 to modify their M4 carbines!!
Senator Tells Army to Reconsider M4,Military.com | By Christian Lowe | April 30, 007--http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,133962,00.html?ESRC=dod.nl...Special operations forces, including "tier one" units such as the Army's Delta Force and the Navy's SEAL Development Group - or SEAL Team Six - have used their own funds to purchase the Heckler & Koch-built 416, which uses a gas-piston operating system less susceptible to failure than Colt's gas-operated design.
"That's significant, because these guys don't screw around," the aide said.
In fact, Colt included four different weapons in the competition to build the Special Operations Forces Combat Assault Rifle, or SCAR, none of which used the M4s gas system, the aide said.
In a routine acquisition notice March 23, a U.S. Special Forces battalion based in Okinawa announced that it is buying 84 upper receiver assemblies for the HK416 to modify their M4 carbines. The M4 fires using a system that redirects gas from the expended round to eject it and reload another. The 416 and SCAR use a gas-operated piston that physically pushes the bolt back to eject the round and load another.
Carbon buildup from the M4's gas system has plagued the rifle for years, resulting in some close calls with Soldiers in combat whose rifles jammed at critical moments.
According to the solicitation for the new upper receiver assemblies, the 416 "allows Soldiers to replace the existing M4 upper receiver with an HK proprietary gas system that does not introduce propellant gases and the associated carbon fouling back into the weapon's interior. This reduces operator cleaning time, and increases the reliability of the M4 Carbine, particularly in an environment in which sand and dust are prevalent."
Yet the Army has still declined to buy anything other than the M4 for its regular troops, requesting about $100 million in the 2007 wartime supplemental to buy M4s for its Soldiers.....
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Obersturmfuhrer loved his M4 and misses her dearly
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I still believe that the H&K 416 should have been used as the next generation Infantry Combat Rifle for the US Arm.y
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M4 uses the direct impingement gas operated principle. The gun gas after the regulator is fed directly back into the chamber to operate the bolt. As the gas is fed directly when the gas is cooled it easily leads to fouling.
The HK 416, XM and others took a leaf from the venerable AK 47, uses a gas operated piston. The gun gas after the regulator is fed into a piston and works the actuator. The movement of the actuator is used work the bolt. The AK gas piston is located directly above the barrel, giving its distinctive profile.
Now the SAR-21 uses the same principle as the above. Barring any leakage as in the first generation of the Tavor, it should perform very favourably. -
now that reminds me....
when SAR 21 first got introduced to public...
it boasts being able to be fed by M16 and SAR 21 mags. how come i don't see that happening? -
You sound like you know what you are talking about technically.Originally posted by touchstone_2000:The HK 416, XM and others took a leaf from the venerable AK 47, uses a gas operated piston. The gun gas after the regulator is fed into a piston and works the actuator. The movement of the actuator is used work the bolt. The AK gas piston is located directly above the barrel, giving its distinctive profile.
However, I disagee that the HK416 or XM "took a leaf" from the AK in using a gas operated piston.
The AK-47 is not the first AR to use a gas-piston. I don't know which one is, but it is not the AK. Gas-pistons are probably around way before the Vietnam War.
The AK's legendary ability to take dirst and other abuses is due to a combination of factors and not just the piston alone.
If you test a HK416 against an AK47 for ability to take dirt and other abuse, the AK may still win.
Many western arms also used gas-piston. The M-16 was actually the rare one that uses this direct gas feed. -
didn't our friends up north just sign up to buy a bunch of M4 ? .... -
I've used the SAR-21 under extreme conditions, and by all measures it tests out fine as a reliable piece of kit... which is not surprising given it works on the piston principle.
As for damage the thing is nearly grunt-proof, but had cases where SAR-21s were damaged when some cadet feel asleep and let his weapon slide into a campfire, melting the butt, and the like. Nothing is grunt-proof but the SAR is hardly in the league of weapons that will fall apart in your hands ala. SA80.
If you ask me I like the weapon and my only grouse about it is that the standard issue grunt version gives weapons buffs like me little option to customize, but of course we're an NSF army. -
licensed for production in-country of course..and we know what happened to the AUGs they had..Originally posted by Fatum:didn't our friends up north just sign up to buy a bunch of M4 ? .... -
True. The venerable M1 Garand and Russian SKS are examples of rifles with gas pistons that pre-date the AK.Originally posted by chino65:The AK-47 is not the first AR to use a gas-piston. I don't know which one is, but it is not the AK. Gas-pistons are probably around way before the Vietnam War.
A couple of my SKS rifles:
Again, true. AK-47s are intentionally built to looser tolerances to enable them to function in adverse conditions that would have sidelined a tight-fitting rifle like the AR-15.Originally posted by chino65:The AK's legendary ability to take dirst and other abuses is due to a combination of factors and not just the piston alone.
The disadvantage to these looser tolerances is that the AK-47 is nowhere near as accurate as an AR-15. From my experience, an 8" grouping at 100 yards is about the best one can hope for with a benchrested and open-sighted AK-47 shooting milsurp ammo. -
answerOriginally posted by Ponders:now that reminds me....
when SAR 21 first got introduced to public...
it boasts being able to be fed by M16 and SAR 21 mags. how come i don't see that happening? -
You obviously have not served NS at all... the SAR-21s the SAF uses for its soldiers CANNOT use the M-16 STANAG at all. For some reason this sets up an issue in which our SAW gunners and M203 are unable to easily share mags, which can be disasterous.Originally posted by lionnoisy:answer
This problem can be easily rectified, but for some reason we are not doing it.
The STANAG capable SAR-21 is so far only seen in the export versions we are trying to sell to the Yanks, Indians, Aussies or the like.
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I think SAND + OIL in SAR21 = Weapon Jam.
Normally, SAR 21 cannot really tahan 180 rounds of firing, cos' by then, it'll be prone to jamming.
From Ex-Range Ammo IC of SSC - SAF. -
My SAR 21 jammed easily under the following conditions..
In an initially clean rifle..
a. after 8-10 mags of blanks (which can't be helped)
b. after more than 7-8 days fast paced outfield exercise (leaving only few minutes a day cleaning rifle)
c. after 20 mags or so of live rounds in a day (i feel because of over heating rather than dirt)
otherwise.. i don't really have issues with the rifle...
i miss it so much... Butt Number 38. -
Never had any real issues with SAR reliability under extreme conditions... but of course I'm saying this relative to my experience with old, end of life M-16s.
But all in all I did a section life firing where I expended 240 rounds within 10 minutes, no stoppages, no jams and the rifle was in the mud. So for gruntwork it passes my test.
AFAIK, it seems the recommended gas regulator settings for the SAR given by ST for default use are too optimistic, sometimes we got weapons with stoppages or inability to cycle until we upped the settings to the higher levels and found that it immediately became completely reliable. -
Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:I've used the SAR-21 under extreme conditions, and by all measures it tests out fine as a reliable piece of kit... which is not surprising given it works on the piston principle.
As for damage the thing is nearly grunt-proof, but had cases where SAR-21s were damaged when some cadet feel asleep and let his weapon slide into a campfire, melting the butt, and the like. Nothing is grunt-proof but the SAR is hardly in the league of weapons that will fall apart in your hands ala. SA80.
If you ask me I like the weapon and my only grouse about it is that the standard issue grunt version gives weapons buffs like me little option to customize, but of course we're an NSF army.
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Well I did not say say AK was the first to use a gas piston. Now as for HK 416's design,Originally posted by chino65:You sound like you know what you are talking about technically.
However, I disagee that the HK416 or XM "took a leaf" from the AK in using a gas operated piston.
The AK-47 is not the first AR to use a gas-piston. I don't know which one is, but it is not the AK. Gas-pistons are probably around way before the Vietnam War.
The AK's legendary ability to take dirst and other abuses is due to a combination of factors and not just the piston alone.
If you test a HK416 against an AK47 for ability to take dirt and other abuse, the AK may still win.
Many western arms also used gas-piston. The M-16 was actually the rare one that uses this direct gas feed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_weapons_influenced_by_the_Kalashnikov_design
I was wrong. IIRC it uses HK proprietary design
M-16 uses direct gas feed because it was suppose to use some kind of new propellant. -
chino65 if im not wrong the ak47 was made way back b4 vietnam even started rite???? is the 47 at the back means 1947 ??? or something else
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Just curious,can the regulator for the SAR21 be easily increased? As in, does it require tools?
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No tools required, it can be done by hand... though obviously if you have just shot it and it is hot and you're gonna need a C-tool or something to help turn it.Originally posted by SpecOps87:Just curious,can the regulator for the SAR21 be easily increased? As in, does it require tools? -
The "book" says you must use tools.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:No tools required, it can be done by hand... though obviously if you have just shot it and it is hot and you're gonna need a C-tool or something to help turn it.
