Artillery Gun Module (AGM) from Germany
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I say this trumps our Primus quite thoroughly, even in terms of weight. Supposedly 27tonnes, and carries the 52" cannon from the PHz 2000 and can use some of the more advanced ammunition currently being worked on by Rheinmetall and Denel.
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/artillery/
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it does look kind of weird.
however, i think the only thing it "wins" the PRIMUS in is it's air transportability. i'm sure we can use more advanced rounds as long as we purchase them and configure our guns to the right condigurations. -
The Primus has a 39" gun only. Personally, I think the Rheinmetall gun is of higher quality than ours, which is a rip off from an old Israeli gun.Originally posted by beavan:it does look kind of weird.
however, i think the only thing it "wins" the PRIMUS in is it's air transportability. i'm sure we can use more advanced rounds as long as we purchase them and configure our guns to the right condigurations.
Also, fire rate is a lot better. 6-8 rounds in a minute, with the option of Multiple-Round Simultaneous-Impact firing. -
The Korean SPG is also 53 calibre (not 52" as TS put it
) and also looks pretty impressive.
That we are inferior to the Germans should be no surprise. Nearly all the western powers beat us in weapons tech, and the Germans had always been the cream of the crop.
We have in the past unashamedly copied from the west e.g. the Bronco and the LWSPH.
What I like about this vehicle is that it took the SPG book and threw it out the window.
This German vehicle is a step away from the traditional tank configuration which seems to give more space for crew and ammo while still offering armour protection.
A few other countries have also abandoned the traditional SPG "tank" configuration by already mounting 155 guns on truck chassis. -
I think the demise of the "traditional" tracked SPA is vastly exaggerated.Originally posted by chino65:What I like about this vehicle is that it took the SPG book and threw it out the window.
This German vehicle is a step away from the traditional tank configuration which seems to give more space for crew and ammo while still offering armour protection.
A few other countries have also abandoned the traditional SPG "tank" configuration by already mounting 155 guns on truck chassis.
Tracked SPGs are to provide arty support for Mechanised formations. Wheeled Arty or Towed Arty are for motorised or legs infantry. Still hasn't changed.
The recent spurt in R&D on light weight wheeled SPA has more to do with the changed threat matrix of the major armies than on them abandoning tracked turreted SPA for truck mounted guns.
With the demise of the Warsaw Pact, there is no longer a pressing need for large numbers of MBTs and their attendent tracked SPA. Instead, these countries now find their focus is on international peace keeping duties with an emphasis on light, rapidly deployable forces. Hence the sudden surge in interest in wheeled SPA (G6, Caeser) and lightweight tracked SPA (eg. Soltam Rascal, KMW AGM).
The only innovation I see is in the marrage of the towed Artillery with the truck platform that used to tow it. This allows for higher carraige speed both on and off-road as well as faster deployment times. At the end of the day, it still remains an Artillery platform for motorised or legs formation. Artillery support for a mechanised formation will still require a tracked SPA platform. The spate of new lightweight tracked SPA is more due to the need for a platform to accompany the RDFs (which seem to be flavour of the month for every army).
That doesn't mean that Heavy tracked SPAs are no longer required. While the matrix for the old Warsaw/NATO threat axis has changed, there are still plenty of potential "hotspots" worldwide where large scale conventional warfare is still a possibility. In such "hotspots", the respective armed forces are actively acquiring/developing modern MBTs and tracked SPAs.
Examples of such hotspots include Greece/Turkey (the med equivalent of Singapore/Malaysia). There is also the staple North/South Korea "truce" as well as the India/Pakistan saber rattling.
Take for example India ... While India currently lacks a modern tracked SPG, it is not for the lack of trying. The recently aborted Bhim T-6 SPG was their attempt to indigenously develop a tracked SPG. Instead, the Indian Defence Ministry has recently (May 07) issued a RFP for approx. 100 tracked SPG platforms with likely options for more to be produced locally with some form of tech transfer. Other countries on the list of recent purchasers of modern SPGs include Greece who have opted for the Pzh2000 along with their Leo 2A6HEL. South Korea has the K-9 whilst Turkey has the Firtina deriviative. Singapore of course has the SSPH.
So in conclusion, heavy tracked SPA in the classical mould have not been dethroned by the upstart truck/gun hybrids. They both fulfill different roles and it's just a matter of the local political climate as to which will play the larger role. -
This is like the offspring of the Primus and the MLRS system after they mated...
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The main point of my post is the second para where I said this German vehicle configuration is unconventional.Originally posted by kotay:So in conclusion, heavy tracked SPA in the classical mould have not been dethroned by the upstart truck/gun hybrids. They both fulfill different roles and it's just a matter of the local political climate as to which will play the larger role.
To give an example of what I meant by conventional:, our Primus is a traditional tank configuration with a low hull and a turret.
This German vehicle on the other hand is like a tracked snow tractor with a large rotating box behind.
And apprently, they can also fit this rotating box turret onto many differrent platforms whether wheel or track.
I just mentioned the wheels as a BTW. -
The Korean K9 is also a 52 calibre/155mm cannon.Originally posted by chino65:The Korean SPG is also 53 calibre (not 52" as TS put it ) and also looks pretty impressive.
That we are inferior to the Germans should be no surprise. Nearly all the western powers beat us in weapons tech, and the Germans had always been the cream of the crop.
We have in the past unashamedly copied from the west e.g. the Bronco and the LWSPH.
What I like about this vehicle is that it took the SPG book and threw it out the window.
This German vehicle is a step away from the traditional tank configuration which seems to give more space for crew and ammo while still offering armour protection.
A few other countries have also abandoned the traditional SPG "tank" configuration by already mounting 155 guns on truck chassis. -
I wonder how stable is the chasis for firing more than a few rounds. At least it should be better than a truck mounted chasis in terms of stability when firing.
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Not sure if our SPH gun is a rip off but yeah they look quite similar. Dont forget that our FH-2000 is one of the best howitzers in the market.
What always made me curious was why the Primus use only a 39" calibre gun when it can comfortably take a 52" one. The difference in max gun performance is about 10KM. 30KM BB vs 40Km FBBB.
Perhaps the length of a 52" gun is not approriate for now. Dont forget that the primus is after a baby. Wait until the Papa,Mama primus aka Primus II then we have something really deadly.
The AGM lacks crew protection but is a good replacement for air mobile forces or even just replacing mech/inf artillery towed guns. -
Our SPH gun is a rip off. I mean, it uses the same chassis as the older M109. And the Gun was based off an Israeli gun. We merely added some stuff to it and lengthened it to become a 52 caliber gun. There is a rumour we took some of the technology created by Gerald Bull.Originally posted by CM06:Not sure if our SPH gun is a rip off but yeah they look quite similar. Dont forget that our FH-2000 is one of the best howitzers in the market.
What always made me curious was why the Primus use only a 39" calibre gun when it can comfortably take a 52" one. The difference in max gun performance is about 10KM. 30KM BB vs 40Km FBBB.
Perhaps the length of a 52" gun is not approriate for now. Dont forget that the primus is after a baby. Wait until the Papa,Mama primus aka Primus II then we have something really deadly.
The AGM lacks crew protection but is a good replacement for air mobile forces or even just replacing mech/inf artillery towed guns.
I believe somewhere that the American military tried to adapt a 155mm/52 caliber gun onto the same chassis but failed as it would result in a lot of modifications because of the length of the gun.
I hear the Germans have a similar upgrade for the M109. Possibly by using some heavy duty recoil system. -
All I can say is that the Primus uses mostly foreign tech/components, consisting of Italian, American, Israeli(?) and even Indian parts. The chasis is based on a United Defence armored chasis which is very similar to the M109.Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:Our SPH gun is a rip off. I mean, it uses the same chassis as the older M109. And the Gun was based off an Israeli gun. We merely added some stuff to it and lengthened it to become a 52 caliber gun. There is a rumour we took some of the technology created by Gerald Bull.
I would say that it's okay for a first attempt at making a SSPH. -
Btw, even with 39 calibre gun, the Primus is already a bit long in length to maneuver in our tropical forest environment. Furthermore, the chassis might not be able to handle a 52 caliber gun's recoil.
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ummm....
btw, the turret of the Primus is already a lil heavy for itself and wonder if anyone here heard abt the lil accident involving the Primus when it went for "extreme slope test".
My retired encik talked to us abt it when i was still in service...
If they want to equip it with the 52 cal gun, gotta rethink about the chasis first. -
The Americans had that problem as well. Pretty much that's the reason why they gave up and opted for the Crusader. But that got canned partly costs, and to satisfy some neocon idiot known as Rumsfeld.Originally posted by Moonstriker:ummm....
btw, the turret of the Primus is already a lil heavy for itself and wonder if anyone here heard abt the lil accident involving the Primus when it went for "extreme slope test".
My retired encik talked to us abt it when i was still in service...
If they want to equip it with the 52 cal gun, gotta rethink about the chasis first. -
I suppose, for a first SPH, it's not too bad.Originally posted by Moonstriker:ummm....
btw, the turret of the Primus is already a lil heavy for itself and wonder if anyone here heard abt the lil accident involving the Primus when it went for "extreme slope test".
My retired encik talked to us abt it when i was still in service...
If they want to equip it with the 52 cal gun, gotta rethink about the chasis first. -
In arty terms the Primus would probably be a knife fighter.
I suspect it is going to be used close up in support of friendly units, relying on its mobility keep up while using shoot and shoot to avoid incoming fire as well as counterbattery to keep the enemy back.
The longer ranged arty support might still fall to the task of our conventional guns. -
Primus a close-in support? They have to keep a considerable distance away from the front lines just to provide support, not least it is dangerous.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:In arty terms the Primus would probably be a knife fighter.
I suspect it is going to be used close up in support of friendly units, relying on its mobility keep up while using shoot and shoot to avoid incoming fire as well as counterbattery to keep the enemy back.
The longer ranged arty support might still fall to the task of our conventional guns.
Not least, the conventional towed guns are limited by that they cannot run if the enemy uses counter battery. Our military should steadily move in the direction of shoot and scoot tactics.
There are ways to extend the range of a 39 caliber gun I suspect, if one goes to S. Africa for shopping. -
yea.. we already have one way to extend the range.. ERBB rounds..Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:Primus a close-in support? They have to keep a considerable distance away from the front lines just to provide support, not least it is dangerous.
Not least, the conventional towed guns are limited by that they cannot run if the enemy uses counter battery. Our military should steadily move in the direction of shoot and scoot tactics.
There are ways to extend the range of a 39 caliber gun I suspect, if one goes to S. Africa for shopping.
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Ney, what I meant is that the Primus would be fighting at distances considered close in for normal tube arty. But this does not mean they will be moving in as direct fire mobile gun platforms or something like that.Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:Primus a close-in support? They have to keep a considerable distance away from the front lines just to provide support, not least it is dangerous.
Not least, the conventional towed guns are limited by that they cannot run if the enemy uses counter battery. Our military should steadily move in the direction of shoot and scoot tactics.
There are ways to extend the range of a 39 caliber gun I suspect, if one goes to S. Africa for shopping.
Naturally they would still keep a distance away from the front lines, but the TTT (Time To Target) and reaction times the Primus crews deal with will probably be much less then longer-ranged fights, but it works both ways for the opponent as well, will have the deal with a lot more prompt and accucrate fire. Basically it looks like the Primus is geared up for the offensive arty war while erm, redland, with its emphasis on range in the ASTROs and like seems to be focused on defence.
But will they have an upcalibered version eventaully? I think so. -
What's the range? 30km? I'm referring to the ones by Denel which can give a 52 cal gun a range of up to 70 km and above.Originally posted by Moonstriker:yea.. we already have one way to extend the range.. ERBB rounds.. -
Hm.. the Russian guns have an option for direct fire. However, I was referring more to your supposition of relying on our "conventional" guns for long range fire which I regard untenable. Naturally, the Primus has to resort to shoot and scoot tactics as per the commands issued to the Artillery firing unit.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Ney, what I meant is that the Primus would be fighting at distances considered close in for normal tube arty. But this does not mean they will be moving in as direct fire mobile gun platforms or something like that.
Naturally they would still keep a distance away from the front lines, but the TTT (Time To Target) and reaction times the Primus crews deal with will probably be much less then longer-ranged fights, but it works both ways for the opponent as well, will have the deal with a lot more prompt and accucrate fire. Basically it looks like the Primus is geared up for the offensive arty war while erm, redland, with its emphasis on range in the ASTROs and like seems to be focused on defence.
But will they have an upcalibered version eventaully? I think so.
As for a 52 cal version, they will have to do some serious tweaking to the chassis. As it stands, 52 cal is a much longer gun compared to 39 cal.