F35's for Singapore ?
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F22 is very expensive, but worth to get probably a small number. So if singapore is under attack, then US will be forced to save singapore if not the F22 will fall into enemy's hand, and will be reverse engineered by whoever country that can afford to purchase it.
As which fighter jet to purchase to become the main force in SAF, maybe singapore should purchase euro fighter, JAS 39 from europe. then let the chinese engineer to do their research on these fighters. Actually european don't mind to cooperate with chinese to transfer their technology as long as it pays them well, just that they can't do it openly due to the pressure from US.
Once singapore get hold of these fighters, then can take advantage of this loophole and secretly become a middleman between china and europe. wow, easy money.
If US found out, fine, we have some F22 and F35 in our airport. Anyway, trade between china and europe that going thru singapore has nothing to do with US. -
uhh.. the B2 is a fricken white elephant
Originally posted by beavan:that's what they said in the past of the B2s and other expensive planes too. -
why ? ... we already have our US trump card ....Originally posted by justdoit77:F22 is very expensive, but worth to get probably a small number. So if singapore is under attack, then US will be forced to save singapore if not the F22 will fall into enemy's hand, and will be reverse engineered by whoever country that can afford to purchase it.
As which fighter jet to purchase to become the main force in SAF, maybe singapore should purchase euro fighter, JAS 39 from europe. then let the chinese engineer to do their research on these fighters. Actually european don't mind to cooperate with chinese to transfer their technology as long as it pays them well, just that they can't do it openly due to the pressure from US.
Once singapore get hold of these fighters, then can take advantage of this loophole and secretly become a middleman between china and europe. wow, easy money.
If US found out, fine, we have some F22 and F35 in our airport. Anyway, trade between china and europe that going thru singapore has nothing to do with US.
you think basing US personnel in paya lebar, sembawang, and changi is for fun ah ? ... or that we need the hard currency ? ... why go through that trouble and run the risk of inviting camel humpers to target Singapore too ? ....
the europeans are just happy to sell to whoever can pay for them ... but they are quickly learning about selling stuff to China ... the germans got a lup cheong up their ass after building the mag lev train in shanghai ... if the europeans think that China is content to just pay and pay for arms then they are truly naive ... -
I thought the Mag train was a Joint venture with tech transfer.. like their new RJ21 commercial jets. China officially only copies things they can't purchase (except the AK Type56).. other military products may looks the same in design, but it's what inside that's count... how many ways can you design a tank, a plane or an APC without looking like other western style one way or the other ? Does our SAR21 copy from TAR21 or AUG3 ?Originally posted by Fatum:why ? ... we already have our US trump card ....
you think basing US personnel in paya lebar, sembawang, and changi is for fun ah ? ... or that we need the hard currency ? ... why go through that trouble and run the risk of inviting camel humpers to target Singapore too ? ....
the europeans are just happy to sell to whoever can pay for them ... but they are quickly learning about selling stuff to China ... the germans got a lup cheong up their ass after building the mag lev train in shanghai ... if the europeans think that China is content to just pay and pay for arms then they are truly naive ...
The Chinese's SU-27/30 was license built for decades.. yet you don't see a generic looking J11 with minor changes coming out.. and calls it J12, do you ? -
we should just get a few more f-15 & lots and lots of F-16 52+ !!!!
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We should get more F-15SG & replaces our F-5S & F-16s with Typhoon
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Like I said european don't mind to transfer technology to china as long as china can afford the price.Originally posted by Fatum:why ? ... we already have our US trump card ....
you think basing US personnel in paya lebar, sembawang, and changi is for fun ah ? ... or that we need the hard currency ? ... why go through that trouble and run the risk of inviting camel humpers to target Singapore too ? ....
the europeans are just happy to sell to whoever can pay for them ... but they are quickly learning about selling stuff to China ... the germans got a lup cheong up their ass after building the mag lev train in shanghai ... if the europeans think that China is content to just pay and pay for arms then they are truly naive ... -
What are you talking about? It does its job and it does its job well.Originally posted by the Bear:uhh.. the B2 is a fricken white elephant
Note that its orginal design specs were based on needs during the Cold War, and its mission has evolved somewhat since then. In terms of doing what it was designed to, and that is to penetrate defences that could not be penetrated and bomb stuff to kingdom come, it works pretty well, and it has since been used in that way.
Unless you want to believe the Serbs who say they shot one down. -
come now ... do you really think so ? ....Originally posted by justdoit77:Like I said european don't mind to transfer technology to china as long as china can afford the price.
yes, the europeans pays only lip service to human rights and all that crap (they stopped arms sales after tiananmen, together with the americans, yes the americans ! )
but it's only good business sense to ensure that China remains a repeat customer eh .... no one with all the screws in place would willingly and happily give away their technology, especially military tech, at any price ... least of all to a country with a known and stated goal of garnering and developing their own tech know-how ...
if you sell everything and transfer tech across, they come up with their own version, then why buy more stuff from you ? .... and of course, they'll likely flood your other markets with cheap copies too eh ? ...
despite whatever they said on the news, the shanghai MAGLEV line was NOT a tech transfer project ... the krauts really thought they'll get repeat business to build other lines ... but their got reamed by a lup cheong instead ... ... true, no one's flying J-11s yet, but many would be flying J-10s soon ... -
would our pilots want to fly in a plane that is entirely coated with RAM or radar absorbent material?
cant be very good for their future "family" prospects can it?
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If I remember correctly, the Serbs shot down a Nighthawk (F-117A), not a Spirit (B-2).Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Unless you want to believe the Serbs who say they shot one down. -
i used to have a pic of the alleged B2... it shows a man holding a B2 landing gear cover. I does look like a B2..but doono wether its true or not. -
Actually it is the reverse. The RAM coating actually asborbs the electromagnetic radiation. The pilot should receive minimal if none at all. The canopy perspex is coated with gold foil to absorb the radiation.Originally posted by Idle_King:would our pilots want to fly in a plane that is entirely coated with RAM or radar absorbent material?
cant be very good for their future "family" prospects can it?
Now if you are in a non-stealth aircraft, eg F-5, Mig-29 and you have 2 E-2C Hawkeye or AEGIS painting you, the squigglies won't be anymore. F-16 by nature of its shape and coated canopy has a better deflect/absorb performance. -
We are now talking about secret though legal business, if this is not a transfer of technology, then they have to sell it in bulk to china and provide necessary training and spare parts to them and so on, like that sooner or later US will know one.
Pakistan, Israel, France has done that before in the past, no need to doubt the repeating of similar deal in the future.Originally posted by Fatum:come now ... do you really think so ? ....
yes, the europeans pays only lip service to human rights and all that crap (they stopped arms sales after tiananmen, together with the americans, yes the americans ! )
but it's only good business sense to ensure that China remains a repeat customer eh .... no one with all the screws in place would willingly and happily give away their technology, especially military tech, at any price ... least of all to a country with a known and stated goal of garnering and developing their own tech know-how ...
if you sell everything and transfer tech across, they come up with their own version, then why buy more stuff from you ? .... and of course, they'll likely flood your other markets with cheap copies too eh ? ...
despite whatever they said on the news, the shanghai MAGLEV line was NOT a tech transfer project ... the krauts really thought they'll get repeat business to build other lines ... but their got reamed by a lup cheong instead ... ... true, no one's flying J-11s yet, but many would be flying J-10s soon ... -
Then why does the french allow us to built the la fayette Frigates.. with tech transfer ? So that we can built it our version and no repeat orders ?Originally posted by Fatum:come now ... do you really think so ? ....
yes, the europeans pays only lip service to human rights and all that crap (they stopped arms sales after tiananmen, together with the americans, yes the americans ! )
but it's only good business sense to ensure that China remains a repeat customer eh .... no one with all the screws in place would willingly and happily give away their technology, especially military tech, at any price ... least of all to a country with a known and stated goal of garnering and developing their own tech know-how ...
if you sell everything and transfer tech across, they come up with their own version, then why buy more stuff from you ? .... and of course, they'll likely flood your other markets with cheap copies too eh ? ...
despite whatever they said on the news, the shanghai MAGLEV line was NOT a tech transfer project ... the krauts really thought they'll get repeat business to build other lines ... but their got reamed by a lup cheong instead ... ... true, no one's flying J-11s yet, but many would be flying J-10s soon ...
If China were to copy and built from the direct transfer, who the hell would sell them things anymore ? You think China got economical success just because of her work force ?
Tech transfers means many things... how it works, the construction, the physics behind it, the tolerance, the temperature requirement, but the critical components such as electronics parts, Metallurgy and software are kept secret... and if transfered requires licensing agreements not neccessary per units. The Tech transfers are usually aggreed upon contract signing, which means that without it.. it would not be signed.
The Mag trains was a tech tranfer, because when china contracted it, it was still the experiental stage..and was a showcase to the world. It was annouced before the construction ever took place. After the mag train had completed, there was an accident in Germany, and China had express no intention to con't the mag train extension... not as what you memtioned. -
They made a claim on a B-2 as well, that was for some reason flying low enough for them to nail. For some reason no wreckage was found or crewmen reported missing but it's a story some Serbs like to believe.Originally posted by Obersturmfuhrer:If I remember correctly, the Serbs shot down a Nighthawk (F-117A), not a Spirit (B-2). -
Yes, but where does the absorbed radar wave channeled to ? How effiecient in the transfer ? The skin of the AC also produces huge amt of statics while in flight. While I agreed that RAM is useful.. but it can't absorb all the Radiation, that's why the F-22 deflects the radar off to certain angles. The F-22 is only the size of a (proclaimed) marble, if only facing pin-point direct against the emmiter point... and not during flight. The F-22 is not stealth at all looking directions.. and to what degree of stealth is still a secret.Originally posted by touchstone_2000:Actually it is the reverse. The RAM coating actually asborbs the electromagnetic radiation. The pilot should receive minimal if none at all. The canopy perspex is coated with gold foil to absorb the radiation.
Now if you are in a non-stealth aircraft, eg F-5, Mig-29 and you have 2 E-2C Hawkeye or AEGIS painting you, the squigglies won't be anymore. F-16 by nature of its shape and coated canopy has a better deflect/absorb performance.
The F-117 was detected far away, during Iraqi Freedom, by the Iraqi aging Russian radars.. as seen during the "shock and Awe" on TV. The sirens were blaring for more than 10 mins, before the initial F-117 first strike in badbag with JDAM. The british warships was also able to track and monitor the F-117 flight path tranversing there. The B-2, as stealhy as it claims, had to hug the terrain to achieve mission success in war games and prctice... there must be a reason for such a tactic. Why not fly at attitude ?
And Lastly, during the previous Red-flag, the British was flying the F-15, and they were surprised that they could not acquire target elumination on the F-22, while in WVR on their HUD ! They couldn't even detect it within WVR. The same situation as the US pilots had earlier claimed flying the same F-15s. Why is that ? Either it is really that super or I smell propaganda, I suspect the IFF via the targeting pods were tweaked. -
I don't think so they had ? Never read about it . But I'm pretty sure an F-117 was downed, with photos and everything.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:They made a claim on a B-2 as well, that was for some reason flying low enough for them to nail. For some reason no wreckage was found or crewmen reported missing but it's a story some Serbs like to believe. -
Depends on what kind of RAM you are talking about, iron ball, foam or Jaumann, they work on various principles like converting the radar energy to heat or bouncing it within itÂ’s internal structure until the radiation loses energy or by being anti-reflective (radar matte).Originally posted by MobyDog:Yes, but where does the absorbed radar wave channeled to ? How effiecient in the transfer ? The skin of the AC also produces huge amt of statics while in flight. While I agreed that RAM is useful.. but it can't absorb all the Radiation, that's why the F-22 deflects the radar off to certain angles. The F-22 is only the size of a (proclaimed) marble, if only facing pin-point direct against the emmiter point... and not during flight. The F-22 is not stealth at all looking directions.. and to what degree of stealth is still a secret.
The F-117 was detected far away, during Iraqi Freedom, by the Iraqi aging Russian radars.. as seen during the "shock and Awe" on TV. The sirens were blaring for more than 10 mins, before the initial F-117 first strike in badbag with JDAM. The british warships was also able to track and monitor the F-117 flight path tranversing there. The B-2, as stealhy as it claims, had to hug the terrain to achieve mission success in war games and prctice... there must be a reason for such a tactic. Why not fly at attitude ?
And Lastly, during the previous Red-flag, the British was flying the F-15, and they were surprised that they could not acquire target elumination on the F-22, while in WVR on their HUD ! They couldn't even detect it within WVR. The same situation as the US pilots had earlier claimed flying the same F-15s. Why is that ? Either it is really that super or I smell propaganda, I suspect the IFF via the targeting pods were tweaked.
RAM does not make the aircraft invisible, but it will greatly reduce the RCS as compared to an untreated aircraft. It is but one part of stealth.
The performance of stealth aircraft is dependent on a lot of thing, the weather, the kind of radar being used (different frequencies have varying effectiveness), distance to emitter and what have you not. Bad weather was identified as the main reason the F-117 got detected in Kosovo when moisture on the airframe allowed long wavelength radar to track it. Also note that the F-117 was based on with the old facet design due to the limitations of computer technology in its day, and hence less efficient of the kind of find in later generation stealth aircraft.
It is not impossible to detect stealth aircraft, just that it is extremely difficult compared to conventional designs. And of course being able to detect the presence of stealth aircraft is one thing, but being able to track and get a firing solution is another. And of course, stealth is a useful thing to have if you want to get closer to your opponent to get the jump on him and get out of there before he can see you or get clear enough to get you, so no matter what, so common sense tells you itÂ’s a good thing to have.
And as for the F-22 mock fights, itÂ’s tough to say for the simple reason the yanks will not be forthcoming about the true extents of this aircraft. In fact they are being tight lipped about just about what it can, and cannot do.
But I think it does little service to anybody to tamper with anything just to create the amazing story that you canÂ’t acquire the F-22 WVR for propaganda purposes. It is so absurd that people will question it indeed, not to mention give the Raptor pilots no actual training in red flag. So is it propaganda? I donÂ’t know but IÂ’ll leave an open verdict. There is no doubt the Raptor is a stealthy and capable mount thought.
In most cases the Raptor tactics are to get Slammers downtown before they are even seen, and hence most of the mock fights are over before they even start, and that would be the tactic you would expect them to use.
Just remember with all technologies there is a hype cycle:
1. "Technology Trigger" The first phase of a Hype Cycle is the "technology trigger" or breakthrough, product launch or other event that generates significant press and interest.
2. "Peak of Inflated Expectations" In the next phase, a frenzy of publicity typically generates over-enthusiasm and unrealistic expectations. There may be some successful applications of a technology, but there are typically more failures.
3. "Trough of Disillusionment" Technologies enter the "trough of disillusionment" because they fail to meet expectations and quickly become unfashionable. Consequently, the press usually abandons the topic and the technology.
4. "Slope of Enlightenment" Although the press may have stopped covering the technology, some businesses continue through the "slope of enlightenment" and experiment to understand the benefits and practical application of the technology.
5. "Plateau of Productivity" A technology reaches the "plateau of productivity" as the benefits of it become widely demonstrated and accepted. The technology becomes increasingly stable and evolves in second and third generations. The final height of the plateau varies according to whether the technology is broadly applicable or benefits only a niche market.
When stealth was first revealed there was a ton of hype going about it, and later when it could be pratically defeated, some people thought it was useless and not worth considering in any argument. But currently the most enlightened and reasonable people know it has its purpose and place. I dunno about you, but if I want a ride to go downtown with, I would certainly want stealth to be part of its package. -
Orignially posted by touchstone_2000:
Now if you are in a non-stealth aircraft, eg F-5, Mig-29 and you have 2 E-2C Hawkeye or AEGIS painting you, the squigglies won't be anymore. so true....Originally posted by MobyDog:
exactly my point! If i was a pilot and told to get into a plane coated with RAM, without knowing if its TOTALLY safe for me, i would be scared sh!tless...
Yes, but where does the absorbed radar wave channeled to ? How effiecient in the transfer ?
imagine turning green like homer
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For goodness replace e AMRAAM with something better
Meteor??? -
Meteor testing just started with the 3 deltas wings recently ( Typhoon/Rafale/Gripen). I dont think it will be operational that soon.Originally posted by spartan6:For goodness replace e AMRAAM with something better Meteor??? Mica IR/EM is still possible... -
They made a claim on a B-2 as well, that was for some reason flying low enough for them to nail. For some reason no wreckage was found or crewmen reported missing but it's a story some Serbs like to believe.
dude...
Discovery Channel : Future Weapon
it shows a clip of the destroyed B2 bombers....he even said its a B2 bombers. -
news in chinese
2.
Family of JSF
3.F-35 Joint Strike Fighter: Events & Contracts 2007 (updated)in US dollar equivalents:
* Tier 1 Partners: The USA (majority commitment), Britain ($2 billion)
* Tier 2 Partners: Italy ($1 billion); The Netherlands ($800 million)
* Tier 3 Partners: Australia ($150M), Canada ($150M), Denmark ($125M), Norway ($125M), Turkey ($175M)
* Observer status: Israel ($35M), Singapore. -
I know it should be operational by 2015