Will China help?
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Who are the people in Malaya and Singapore who helped China during WW2 ? did your grandfathers give any money to the United China relief or the national war fund? If you have no affiliation whatsoever to China, why do you expect China to come to your aid when you are in trouble?
If Singapore were attacked someday, we would be hoping for international intervention from all friendly nations. We hope our weapons suppliers, especially the american, would rush to us the ammunition we need for the war, what aid do we need from China? Contribution to the United Singapore Relief Fund?
that I believe there will be more contribution from China than from any other country.
In the unlikely event that Singapore were overrun by our enemy, there will be an american carrier here to evacuate, first the american, than the citizens from other angmohs countries. The Japanese and Koreans would have to evacuate their citizens too, and of course the Chinese, naval vessels from PRC and ROC. If you are not already on safe ground by then, what choice have you got but hope that any vessel, including one from PRC, would take you and your family to safety?
You will be lucky if you can land safely on Hainan island before you move on to country of your choice, if you have the means. Or do you prefer the Philippines or Vietnam, or may be India, if the rescue vessels go west?
You can continue to dream of holding a british passport, but then what is so bad about a PRC passport if you can stay in HK?
The better hope is still to ensure that Singapore cannot be overrun by our enemy.
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Our forefathers certainly gave much to China, to the extent that when the Japanese came, they went on a witch-hunt to kill all the supporters of the Chinese war against Japan.
The Chinese Chamber of Commerce estimated 40-50,000 civilians were shot by the Japanese immediately after their conquest of Singapore. Japanese records admitted that they had killed only 6000. The truth lie somewhere in between..
Even Indians POWs who refused to join the pro-jap INA were used as target practice :
Those who did not die were bayoneted to death
Bones of Chinese victims.........mindef photo..... -
Lieutenant-General Shinpei Fukuyei, commander of the prisoner of war camps in Singapore and Malaya during the occupation, was told to point out the place where British prisoners of war were executed. He was later shot at the same spot on Changi Beach in April 1946. -
Why? Why will we be "farked"? Please explain.Originally posted by Fatum:we are Singaporeans, we are a multi-cultural, multi-ethnic country, period ...
that the main component race of our country is chinese is just an accident of history ...
if we start claiming historical and ethnic kinship with chinese .... we're, pardon my french ... farked ! ... -
than we all go back to China.....Historical claim kick in. We will be arguing in speaker corner why we should remain as a fishing village.Originally posted by chino65:Why? Why will we be "farked"? Please explain.
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The 2 fearsome Bears......... -
I don't think u know what you are talking about. Than again you have not lost or experience so you won't know until you loose it.Originally posted by pinkish purple papayas:Being a vassel better than being a colony?
look at the european colonies, its all about genocides, plundering, slavery, expliotation and mining...
at least china vassels of vietnam, korea, japan still kept their monarchs and autonomy.. trade and culture flourished in these vassel states..
Of cause lah...now modern politics is a different story liao...but history always repeats...and no city state(singapore) has lasted more than 100years in human history?
It is typical of chinese culture to practics culture conform. Its own Culture revolution and Its behavior towards Tibet, Eastern china are a great example of force conforment. The insistant of strict behavior and enforce thru PLA police is a method widely used. As such given a PRC nationalistics behavior If it comes to SG, it bring along these characteristics. I don't think majority of 2nd and 3rd generation SG understand that aspect. Is not free if they come.
In any case what make you so sure that if PRC do comes they are going to leave?
It goes beyond the chinese food n skin deep that we share. Is about idea and social behavior. -
omg nice cartoon.Originally posted by Dr Who:
The 2 fearsome Bears......... -
You got mixed up completely between politics and cultures. True chinese culture emphasize "middle of the road" philosophy, "zhong rong zi dao", never go to the extremes. Over the years, while most of the philosophy from "Lun Yu", words of wisdom from some religions, virtues and teachings from legends in Chinese history were retained, many traditions that originated from myths and folks religions have been discarded with greater knowledge in science and technologies. Modern comsumerism has even corrupted the culture. There was never any "force conforment".Originally posted by Arapahoe:I don't think u know what you are talking about. Than again you have not lost or experience so you won't know until you loose it.
It is typical of chinese culture to practics culture conform. Its own Culture revolution and Its behavior towards Tibet, Eastern china are a great example of force conforment. The insistant of strict behavior and enforce thru PLA police is a method widely used. As such given a PRC nationalistics behavior If it comes to SG, it bring along these characteristics. I don't think majority of 2nd and 3rd generation SG understand that aspect. Is not free if they come.
In any case what make you so sure that if PRC do comes they are going to leave?
It goes beyond the chinese food n skin deep that we share. Is about idea and social behavior.
PRC, PLA, Tibet are politics, PRC is not Chinese cultures. In fact, during the cultural revolution in China, the commies had tried to destroy everything linked with culture and traditions. PRC, under the commies, are not representative of Chinese culture. PLA are communists originated from Marxists, a German in Russia, not Chinese. The people in China before WW2 embraced communism because they were poor, and communism gave the "hope", not because it was "Chinese".
Culture to a race, or ethnicity, is more than just some ideas and social behavior. How much do Singaporean know about Chinese cultures to comment on the culture? -
How many people in Korea were killed by the Japanese in WW2? In east indies, east borneo, thailand, philippines....many were massacred, many were innocent civillian, others were defending their own countries. there is no doubt some Chinese in Singapore and Malaya supported China because China was their home country (Singapore then was not a country yet). Japan invaded many countries during WW2, many people fought against one common enemy, but for their own respective country, not China.Originally posted by Dr Who:Our forefathers certainly gave much to China, to the extent that when the Japanese came, they went on a witch-hunt to kill all the supporters of the Chinese war against Japan.
The Chinese Chamber of Commerce estimated 40-50,000 civilians were shot by the Japanese immediately after their conquest of Singapore. Japanese records admitted that they had killed only 6000. The truth lie somewhere in between..
Even Indians POWs who refused to join the pro-jap INA were used as target practice : -
Very well said. I've read some of your previous posts and they've all been really good with real in depth and level headed views. Great!!Originally posted by sgdiehard:You got mixed up completely between politics and cultures. True chinese culture emphasize "middle of the road" philosophy, "zhong rong zi dao", never go to the extremes. Over the years, while most of the philosophy from "Lun Yu", words of wisdom from some religions, virtues and teachings from legends in Chinese history were retained, many traditions that originated from myths and folks religions have been discarded with greater knowledge in science and technologies. Modern comsumerism has even corrupted the culture. There was never any "force conforment".
PRC, PLA, Tibet are politics, PRC is not Chinese cultures. In fact, during the cultural revolution in China, the commies had tried to destroy everything linked with culture and traditions. PRC, under the commies, are not representative of Chinese culture. PLA are communists originated from Marxists, a German in Russia, not Chinese. The people in China before WW2 embraced communism because they were poor, and communism gave the "hope", not because it was "Chinese".
Culture to a race, or ethnicity, is more than just some ideas and social behavior. How much do Singaporean know about Chinese cultures to comment on the culture? -
Korea had been a Japanese colony long before World War 2. In fact, Koreans had to serve NS in the Japanese Army.
Many evil acts committed in Singapore and Malaya which were blamed on the Japanese Army were actually committed by Koreans in the Japanese Army. They were treated as 2nd class by the Japanese, so they bully the local people in turn.
Taiwan, another Japanese colony, provided Hokkien speaking soldiers for the Japanese Army, and acted as Interpreters for interrogation of suspects by the Kempei-tai secret Police.
30,000 Taiwanese natives died for Japan during WW2
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Originally posted by footprints:Very well said. I've read some of your previous posts and they've all been really good with real in depth and level headed views. Great!!
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We should not rely on any single nation to defend us.
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Originally posted by Dr Who:
It's still the Japanese Army dude, this is about under which nation's name they shed blood in, not their race.
Many evil acts committed in Singapore and Malaya which were blamed on the [b]Japanese Army were actually committed by Koreans in the Japanese Army. They were treated as 2nd class by the Japanese, so they bully the local people in turn.
'' [/b]
And of course, the Japanese higher command did little to stem the atrocities coming from their own soldiers in any case, and santioned plenty of "projects" that led to much misery and death.
So yeah, the buck still passes pretty much to them. -
Future news : PLA on their way to kick Indon asses hopefully 2009
Maybe Adnans also kenna kicked......... -
True we may not be truly able to discuss about Chinese culture in depth.Originally posted by sgdiehard:You got mixed up completely between politics and cultures. True chinese culture emphasize "middle of the road" philosophy, "zhong rong zi dao", never go to the extremes. Over the years, while most of the philosophy from "Lun Yu", words of wisdom from some religions, virtues and teachings from legends in Chinese history were retained, many traditions that originated from myths and folks religions have been discarded with greater knowledge in science and technologies. Modern comsumerism has even corrupted the culture. There was never any "force conforment".
PRC, PLA, Tibet are politics, PRC is not Chinese cultures. In fact, during the cultural revolution in China, the commies had tried to destroy everything linked with culture and traditions. PRC, under the commies, are not representative of Chinese culture. PLA are communists originated from Marxists, a German in Russia, not Chinese. The people in China before WW2 embraced communism because they were poor, and communism gave the "hope", not because it was "Chinese".
Culture to a race, or ethnicity, is more than just some ideas and social behavior. How much do Singaporean know about Chinese cultures to comment on the culture?
But on the contrary, I think the result of the culture revolution is the manifestation of the chinese culture, it dismantle of feudal traditional family. It meddles into the daily lives of individual household. It took the family value into state wide level. Discredit all ties, families, emotion, believes. to serve the communism ideas to a point of almost a transformation of worshipping an emperor. I think that get cross in between politics n culture donÂ’t u think so.
In the case of tibet and eastern china the central gov injecting Han ethnic into the population. Other than gaining political vote, it will assimilated and conform the population into more Hans'.
A note as to how confirmative is ingrain in the chinese culture as in child development between the Eastern n Western teaching. As Chinese, as kids; we learn how to hold a chop stick to eat from a bowl, how to hold a bowl, how to hold a pencil correctly to write. And all the other do and don..
In the West you see Pre school teacher allow kids to hold a pen in anyway and start drawing in anyway. This is based on the rationale that it allow creativity and develop individual character, develop self confident, it start to instill individuality as kids. -
This is a Military forum, should not talk too much about culture. But suggest you go find out what is Culture and what is Chinese culture? The definition of Culture should be the same for east and west but learn about Chinese culture from the chinese, or talk to some westerners in China or Taiwan, those who speak Chinese.Originally posted by Arapahoe:True we may not be truly able to discuss about Chinese culture in depth.
But on the contrary, I think the result of the culture revolution is the manifestation of the chinese culture, it dismantle of feudal traditional family. It meddles into the daily lives of individual household. It took the family value into state wide level. Discredit all ties, families, emotion, believes. to serve the communism ideas to a point of almost a transformation of worshipping an emperor. I think that get cross in between politics n culture donÂ’t u think so.
In the case of tibet and eastern china the central gov injecting Han ethnic into the population. Other than gaining political vote, it will assimilated and conform the population into more Hans'.
A note as to how confirmative is ingrain in the chinese culture as in child development between the Eastern n Western teaching. As Chinese, as kids; we learn how to hold a chop stick to eat from a bowl, how to hold a bowl, how to hold a pencil correctly to write. And all the other do and don..
In the West you see Pre school teacher allow kids to hold a pen in anyway and start drawing in anyway. This is based on the rationale that it allow creativity and develop individual character, develop self confident, it start to instill individuality as kids.
All Chinese, agree, including those from PRC, that cultural revolution is a national catastrophe for China and it brought back Chinese civilization by 20 years. How did it become a "manifestation of Chinese Culture"???
Teaching kids how to hold chop stick,..... is "confirmative"??? do you know what is "table manners"? You will be wrong if you think parents in the west do not teach their children how to hold fork and spoon, how to use a table knife, how to behave at dinner.
Is there a "Chinese" way of holding a pen vs the western liberal way??
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I am not comfortable with that idea at all. I rather we work closer and strengthen our bonds with our neighbours and work towards a common ASEAN identity.Originally posted by Dr Who:
Future news : PLA on their way to kick Indon asses hopefully 2009
Maybe Adnans also kenna kicked......... -
Ah... yes, I remember that. But the world's biggest meddler (AKA US), warned China not to meddle in another's country's internal affairs.Originally posted by tankee1981:One thing is for sure. The PRC is very concerned about the plight of overseas Chinese in recent years even though these ethnic Chinese are not their citizens. Take for example the May riots in Jarkarta in which the ethnic Chinese are deliberately targeted. The men and women are raped and killed. Their properties ransacked and torched. Thousands of these Indonesia Chinese fled to neighbouring countries in particular Singapore.
If i am not wrong the PRC government issued a statment and the semi-government organisations voice violent protest and condemnation. The online Chinese forums are full of support of the PRC government to take action.
BTW, During the US puppet Sukarno(spelling) genocide of chinese in the 60's. China actually sent ships to evac hundreds of thousands of indonesia Chinese to Hunan or hainan (something like that). -
They just learnt it from the best.. US. US has done all those things and more.Originally posted by Fatum:oh yeah ? .... this is cute ....
what about selling arms to sudan ? ... for the khartom goverment and arab militias to commit genocide ? ... in exchange for oil and such ? ..... cultivating Burma, providing her with cheap arms, loans and such, in return for securing her southern flank and maybe a naval port or a pipeline in the future ? ...
And about Darfur... it's about oil. And from what I understand about the situation there. UN has not classified it as "Genocide", only the US and media does. If you're well-read and divert from American controlled media.. you will learn that it was US (thru Uganda and Chad proxies) are reponsible for the latest conflict. US proxies trained and supplied the Rebels, who incidentally, are also guilty as all the crimes done by the janjaweed, attacked the govt troops and won almost every battle. While Collin Powers was in UN selling WMD in Iraq and 'Genocide' in Sudan. Well before even the Janjaweed entered the pic. The US even openly stated they want a regime change. Almost all the the news out there are giving one-sided reporting, even the UN investigator (US citizens), were all one-sided. Hardly, you will read about the Rebels crimes, even though they are great with their Machetes, rapes, pillage, banditry and child soldiers. Stay away from New York Times.realpolitiks ? .... china ? ....
Yeah.. US is great. Can you name how many US puppet dictators and ally was backstabbed.. when they out-lived their usefulness. Let's see, Milosevic, Noriego, Saddam, Pinochet, hmong, Kurds.. etc. In the 80's, even Lee Kwan Yew was suspected of being targeted for regime change.. until we totally accept and became a pro-US satelite of sort, WTO, IMF, chewing gum and Gay issues. It all so the greater good for US foreign Interest. Hardly a trusted ally.
the vietnamese pwnzed china in the 79 border war ... and as for korea, they have historically crossed the yalu to secure their northern flank since the time of the japanese shoguns .... ditto tibet ....
China shall never be a friend ... only an ally of opportunity ... I hope you're actually one of dreameryb's clones ... else I'd say you're badly deluded ... [/b]
While, there are things that leaves us suspicious of China.. but if you look at China past foriegn actions.. they usually mean what they say.. even to Russia and US. Not much double talk like the US.. 'Say one thing, while doing another' or 'Do as I say, not as I do'. -
Chinese in our neighbouring countries, are all treated as second class citizens. that is why the Malaysian chinese are migrating to Australia, UK, and the Indonesian Chinese are migrating to USA, europe and australia, besides Singapore. But not all are able to migrate, more are being born in the not so rich families in these countries. Should there be another riots targetting at the chinese community, who do you think would have the guts to tell the government to take actions, who would have the capability to evacuate them to safety? Singapore? USA?Originally posted by LazerLordz:I am not comfortable with that idea at all. I rather we work closer and strengthen our bonds with our neighbours and work towards a common ASEAN identity.
That is the reason why the Chinese there are hoping for a powerful China, because China is their only hope.
As for ASEAN, heard what Mohd Nazri Abdul Aziz from the Malaysian Prime Minister office said recently, "singapore is not a country, just an island". There are a lot of guys like him holding key positions in just one of our neighbours.
First we need them to respect us as a country, then a country of equal standing with them ( don't know what it takes to accomplish that), then we can talk about a common ASEAN identity. since its founding in 1967, has ASESN ever stood firm as one identity on any issue?? FTA, WMD in Iraq, Invasion of Kuwait.....
May be when threatened will ASEAN stand together, but who want to threaten ASEAN? China? .... they will tell you, such idea is really "wu liao". -
Well, some might want a powerful China, but have you realised that ASEAN is not all made up of Chinese?Originally posted by sgdiehard:Chinese in our neighbouring countries, are all treated as second class citizens. that is why the Malaysian chinese are migrating to Australia, UK, and the Indonesian Chinese are migrating to USA, europe and australia, besides Singapore. But not all are able to migrate, more are being born in the not so rich families in these countries. Should there be another riots targetting at the chinese community, who do you think would have the guts to tell the government to take actions, who would have the capability to evacuate them to safety? Singapore? USA?
That is the reason why the Chinese there are hoping for a powerful China, because China is their only hope.
As for ASEAN, heard what Mohd Nazri Abdul Aziz from the Malaysian Prime Minister office said recently, "singapore is not a country, just an island". There are a lot of guys like him holding key positions in just one of our neighbours.
First we need them to respect us as a country, then a country of equal standing with them ( don't know what it takes to accomplish that), then we can talk about a common ASEAN identity. since its founding in 1967, has ASESN ever stood firm as one identity on any issue?? FTA, WMD in Iraq, Invasion of Kuwait.....
May be when threatened will ASEAN stand together, but who want to threaten ASEAN? China? .... they will tell you, such idea is really "wu liao".
The ASEAN elite are not comfortable with a strong China, and neither do many people I know. It's either we put aside our national differences, or our neighbours have to find out the hard way if this region spirals downwards. People like Mohd Nazri will have to eat humble pie in less favourable circumstances.
This is why Singapore cannot play the Chinese card. It is something reserved for SIOPs in extreme scenarios. -
The fact that Singapore was the last ASEAN nation to establish diplomatic relationship with China is clear that Singapore never play the Chinese card. Singapore also turned down the offer by Teng Xiao Peng to train our troops in Yunnan and Guangxi province to avoid having any possible misinterpretation of our relationship with China. ASEAN is not made up of Chinese, no Chinese in any ASEAN country ever tried to give that impression. But Mahathir ever tried to advocate the use of Malay/Indonesian language as the official language of ASEAN because by population, more people in ASEAN speak Malay/Indonesian than any other language. Why should there be any fear for the chinese?Originally posted by LazerLordz:Well, some might want a powerful China, but have you realised that ASEAN is not all made up of Chinese?
The ASEAN elite are not comfortable with a strong China, and neither do many people I know. It's either we put aside our national differences, or our neighbours have to find out the hard way if this region spirals downwards. People like Mohd Nazri will have to eat humble pie in less favourable circumstances.
This is why Singapore cannot play the Chinese card. It is something reserved for SIOPs in extreme scenarios.
About ASEAN solidarity, the ball is not in our court. We are but a small dot to our ASEAN neighbours. We can talk till cow comes home about putting aside difference, until our neigbours see that they need ASEAN, see the need to cooperate, the need to be united.....but will they ever see such a need, even in their own country?
Honestly, if the elites in all these countries care for their own countrymen, especially the minority race, these people will not have to hope for outside help, China or USA. But you expect their elites to look after the minority? not even in Singapore. -
This is the biggest lie in human history. But many people forget that.Originally posted by MobyDog:While Collin Powers was in UN selling WMD in Iraq .
We can still be suspicious of China under communists, because we do not know their behavior when their influence is as wide as the american. But we do know about the american, "you are either on my side or you are against me"!! To be on their side, you either have oil, or stand against their enemies... and before you realise, many have lost their sense of judgement, do what the american do, say what the american say, they have become american clones.Originally posted by MobyDog:While, there are things that leaves us suspicious of China.. but if you look at China past foriegn actions.. they usually mean what they say.. even to Russia and US. Not much double talk like the US.. 'Say one thing, while doing another' or 'Do as I say, not as I do'.
that will be a sad day for anybody.