Singapore must help malaysia if indonesia attacks
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200?
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Don't take the 8000km too seriously... it really depends on the flight profile and load out. =)Originally posted by tankfanatic:SU MKM have 8000km range with tanker support... so where exactly that in indonesia the RMAF cant reach?
Anyways, the reasonable explanation for the Indonesia's sizable sea-lift assets is that they are an archipelago nation after all. So we shouldn't assume that their sea-lift assets are non-functional.
However, they are also vulnerable to maritime strikes from RMAF F/A-18Ds as well. I discounted the MiG-29Ns since they've already been sent to the freezer. If Singapore was to find the sea-lift assets to be of sufficient threat to our own security, I think we would not sit back idly too. Unfortunately, I could not find a single reference to our F-16Ds being Harpoon capable to carry out a maritime strike. -
before you start jumping the gun and start making assumption... i must ask that you justify the addition of RSAF and RSN asset in a war against TNI in east malaysia where we have absolutely no obligation watsoever treaty or otherwise to defend.Originally posted by CM06:Shotgun - yes there is a Anti-ship version of the Hellfire. Taiwan has that deployed on their cobras. I doubt that we have those in enough numbers if at all though. The war head of anti-ship and anti- armour variants explodes differently so they arent that effective against the other.
Then please answer my questions which you have avoided twice already!
1) Superior sealift is most definitely -required- by an attacker. Normal defence odds are 3:1. Dug in with arty support can increase to 7:1 or more. The more of troops/supplies/armour/arty/fuel/ammunition you bring.. the less of the previously mentioned other 5 options you have.
2)Troops condition will -drop- the longer they are at sea. They will not be in 100% fighting condition should they have to take a sea-lift then onto a few days trek inland to their objectives.
3) Time coordination between a coastal assault and a land assault must be well coordinated to maximise Firepower else it will might as well be two seperate weaker attacks.
4) I was also clearly stating the usage of TNI-AL sealift at kalimantan - what do you have to protect the LSTs from intrusions of RMN/RSN, RMAF/RSAF units from deploying weapon systems against them.
5) LSTs being used inland doesnt mean it's well "within TNI-AU protection and well beyond RMAF reach" How would you deal with a strike package of F-18s carrying harpoons escorted with a Mig-29s in interceptor role maybe even guided by a E2-C somewhere? <--Consider this is only a RMAF senario.
A worse senario will be that of a screen of F-18s & Mig 29s in interceptor role....followed by a strike package of F-16Ds with close escorts of F-16Cs in fighter/attack arming. The entire movement coordinated by E2-Cs and the F-16s can carry a full-load package due to the tanker hovering in the South China Sea.....That will freaking hurt.
secondly... MIG-29 is short legged that much everyone knows and its practically in cold storage. while malaysia esteem F-18 numbered only a mere 8.. given a division of 3 of 1/3 operation, 1/3 maintainance and 1/3 standby.. its a miracle you even bother to mention the F-18 existence given its limited numbers...
luckily you didnt bring in SU-30MKM... which currently would not even be operational ...
the rest of RMAF subsonic fighters are not even worth mentioning against TNI F-16s ....
RMAF stil have to guard peninsula malaysia with its remaining fighters ... do you think they still go fighters to spare to cover a RMN invasion into indonesia water to challeng the much bigger TNI-AL fleet?
for your info... the indonesian navy have at least 10 frigates... true they are mostly old and second hand... but couple with their dozens of corvettes they are more then capable of defending their landing ships well inside indonesian water under indonesia F-16 covers. -
troop lift is about numbers and capacities as well as turnaround time...Originally posted by tankfanatic:SU MKM have 8000km range with tanker support... so where exactly that in indonesia the RMAF cant reach?
as someone already noted... given indonesia's achipelego status... and its need to maintain control and command as well as support over such a vast water interspersed territory... its silly to think that their amphi fleet is rotting in their harbour.
looking at their vast number of landing ships... its unbelievable that anyone in TNI would actually keep buying more ships yet unable to maintain them in operational status... maybe not 100%.. but surely not below 50%.
and your SU MKM... where isit? how many is there? and where is your pilot?
we know that RMAF just recieved 2.. and its pilots have only started to train... its gonna be years before RMAF can operationalise its SU MKM.. by then.. i am sure indonesia would have up the ante with additonal SU-27, armed of course. -
your SU MKM... where isit? how many is there? and where is your pilot?
mine? hello? -
We just need to sent whoever from the two that cross our border to the gas chambers.To Hell with ASEAN,in fact i think we should join the G8 rather than the stupid ASEAN.
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before you start jumping the gun and start making assumption... i must ask that you justify the addition of RSAF and RSN asset in a war against TNI in east malaysia where we have absolutely no obligation watsoever treaty or otherwise to defend.
lolsecondly... MIG-29 is short legged that much everyone knows and its practically in cold storage.
nope mig 29 not in the cold storage just yet.Azizan said the RMAF was also looking at stealth technology in the near future, to enhance its electronic and non-conventional warfare capability, especially in combating terrorism.
short leg yes buth the 29N have operational range of 1500 km with max. internal fuel and 2100 km with 3 external tanks...short but still covered the east M respectedly.
The acquisition of more Sukhois or Hornets will, however, not affect the operations of the existing 18 MiG-29N fighters, he added.
"Although a decade old, the MiG-29Ns are still very useful and can serve up to 30 years with proper maintenance and refurbishment.
"Our ultimate aim is to refurbish and upgrade our combat aircraft every 10 years to remain as a deterrent force, and enhance our surveillance and reconnaissance capabilities."while malaysia esteem F-18 numbered only a mere 8.. given a division of 3 of 1/3 operation, 1/3 maintainance and 1/3 standby.. its a miracle you even bother to mention the F-18 existence given its limited numbers...
why? it exist... it carry weapon...it can fire its weapon...the malaysian would be smiling now if indonesian decide not to take the hornets into count.luckily you didnt bring in SU-30MKM... which currently would not even be operational ...
why would 'i' want to bring the flanker?..and its not operational yet...but that 2 have its weapon system integrated already unlike the TNI AU ..MK. It doesnt even have hardpoints.the rest of RMAF subsonic fighters are not even worth mentioning against TNI F-16s ....
this is so weird... the hawk were trainers and ground attack..pal. Indonesia use it too.RMAF stil have to guard peninsula malaysia with its remaining fighters ... do you think they still go fighters to spare to cover a RMN invasion into indonesia water to challeng the much bigger TNI-AL fleet?
combat AC dont just guard area like that pal...what you think this is like C&C general? only idiot plan battle that.
how about the aussies in butterworth?for your info... the indonesian navy have at least 10 frigates... true they are mostly old and second hand... but couple with their dozens of corvettes they are more then capable of defending their landing ships well inside indonesian water under indonesia F-16 covers.
you have got to be kidding me... those junk? -
the rest of RMAF subsonic fighters are not even worth mentioning against TNI F-16s
this thing about the super powerfull TNI AU F-16 is getting my nerve.
lets do a reality check
TNI AU have 12 F-16A/B Block 15OCU (Operational Capability Upgrade)
if i use your formula of '1/3thingy' that would be.. 4 nos of AC in operational readiness to guard the huge TNI AL landing ship.
they were armed with dumb bombs, AIM-9 missiles and SUU-20 practice dispensers alsp recently were seen having with AGM-65 missiles as well. It cant fight at night and only capable of performing medium profile missions with a limited daytime attacking capability.
i say TNI AL would need a lot of bomoh protection because of that. -
2 SU30-MKM with complete package is better than 2 SU-27 + 2 SU30-MK that doesn't have any missile ...........
don't know about the radars..............
last I heard, only 4 Indon's F16 are able to fly due the embargo........... what the hecked......... -
To Shotgun, I think you mistaken. i mentioned RMAF F-18s carrying harpoons. Anyway, dont sell ourselves short regarding F-16s. If we bother to weaponize our Fokkers with Harpoons, how hard is it to wire up those to a Viper?
I dont bring in SU-30MKM because i -know- what i'm talking about.Originally posted by tripwire:before you start jumping the gun and start making assumption... i must ask that you justify the addition of RSAF and RSN asset in a war against TNI in east malaysia where we have absolutely no obligation watsoever treaty or otherwise to defend.
secondly... MIG-29 is short legged that much everyone knows and its practically in cold storage. while malaysia esteem F-18 numbered only a mere 8.. given a division of 3 of 1/3 operation, 1/3 maintainance and 1/3 standby.. its a miracle you even bother to mention the F-18 existence given its limited numbers...
luckily you didnt bring in SU-30MKM... which currently would not even be operational ...
the rest of RMAF subsonic fighters are not even worth mentioning against TNI F-16s ....
RMAF stil have to guard peninsula malaysia with its remaining fighters ... do you think they still go fighters to spare to cover a RMN invasion into indonesia water to challeng the much bigger TNI-AL fleet?
for your info... the indonesian navy have at least 10 frigates... true they are mostly old and second hand... but couple with their dozens of corvettes they are more then capable of defending their landing ships well inside indonesian water under indonesia F-16 covers.
Anway, unless Indonesia bribed us to not move a finger, failure to plan for such a contingency on their part, should we even contribute anything to assist Malaysia would tip the balance in Malaysia's favour wouldnt it?
However, i'm very surprised when you can quote "RMAF is 1/3 flyable" and you didnt even blink when you said TNI-AL F-16 cover.....just how long was the US military embargo on Indoneasia was and how long ago was it lifted?
I gave you a very fair senario of 100% RMAF vs 100% TNI-AL, you didnt tell me how you can handle that.
Even without the assistance of the RSN/RSAF, the RMAF/MAF forces have the leverage to -defend- Kalimantan. I already said, you can pour troops in but the longer time you spend moving troops AND SUPPORTING STUFF (i think im saying this the 4th time) the more time the MAF have to dig in / wake up their W Malaysian Forces to Full Ability and send troops/Ships/Planes over to East Malaysia.
Unless you can support a Full 5+ Division of troops to attack the 1 Dug in Division of the MAF, have the Air capability to hold off Mig-29/F-18s intrusions AND prevent the 80% of Malaysia's brown water ships from protecting their coast/bringing reinforcement. I dont believe the odds are against the Malaysians at all. -
Paiseh, what was I mistaken about? Heh.Originally posted by CM06:To Shotgun, I think you mistaken. i mentioned RMAF F-18s carrying harpoons. Anyway, dont sell ourselves short regarding F-16s. If we bother to weaponize our Fokkers with Harpoons, how hard is it to wire up those to a Viper?
I dont bring in SU-30MKM because i -know- what i'm talking about.
Anway, unless Indonesia bribed us to not move a finger, failure to plan for such a contingency on their part, should we even contribute anything to assist Malaysia would tip the balance in Malaysia's favour wouldnt it?
However, i'm very surprised when you can quote "RMAF is 1/3 flyable" and you didnt even blink when you said TNI-AL F-16 cover.....just how long was the US military embargo on Indoneasia was and how long ago was it lifted?
I gave you a very fair senario of 100% RMAF vs 100% TNI-AL, you didnt tell me how you can handle that.
Even without the assistance of the RSN/RSAF, the RMAF/MAF forces have the leverage to -defend- Kalimantan. I already said, you can pour troops in but the longer time you spend moving troops AND SUPPORTING STUFF (i think im saying this the 4th time) the more time the MAF have to dig in / wake up their W Malaysian Forces to Full Ability and send troops/Ships/Planes over to East Malaysia.
Unless you can support a Full 5+ Division of troops to attack the 1 Dug in Division of the MAF, have the Air capability to hold off Mig-29/F-18s intrusions AND prevent the 80% of Malaysia's brown water ships from protecting their coast/bringing reinforcement. I dont believe the odds are against the Malaysians at all.
As to whether our vipers can shoot harpoons, I'm really erring on the safe side.
Firstly, I really DON'T know if our Vipers can shoot Harpoons or not. I refuse to put my name or rather my forum name on something which I officially have no knowledge about.
Secondly. Even if they did, it may not be public domain information. Hence I have no interest in compromising national security.
Given the 2 reasons. I'd say we do not have Viper/Harpoon Capabilities. =)
As far as I remember, we purchased ship launched harpoons more than air launched ones. Which are not interchangeable. Also, to launch the harpoon, its not simply wiring up the harpoon the Viper. To accurately use the harpoons u need the software to provide the harpoon with targeting information. Unfortunately for our Blk52 F-16s, I doubt we have that kinda plug and play capability to be able to shoot it. I can plug a USB infrared mouse to the F-16, but it doesnt mean the Viper's computer knows how to use it. -
I doubt your optimism in Singapore's security is justified because we have the most numerous and most advanced armed forces in SE Asia...Our battle inexperienced Armed Forces and war exercises are wayang, for deterrence.Originally posted by tripwire:dont be stupid... even the malaysians and indonesians have alot more of sensibility to realize the lunacy of starting a second front through singapore when they already have their hands full over in the east malaysia.
singapore's military strength is easily 3 to 5 times that of MAF... and in terms of air and naval power... nobody in this region currently rivals us...
not to mention we got lots of friends around the world who has alot of vested interest in ensuring our security.
Commandos can run very far, NDU can tahan extreme cold, SCDF can prepare equipment very fast... KUMPUI? War is fought on experience and spontaneous reaction based on familarity.
Singapore is 30x20km. Malaysia and Indonesia do not have to engage us directly to finish us off. Espionage, long range projectiles, shells, stealth missions are enough to put our urban scape into such chaos we'll be paralysed from inside out.
And with regard to our lots of "friends" around the world... I almost laugh when I saw this. I hope they come fast enough to bury our corpses before they decompose. Singapore can only fight a SEVEN day war with our ammunition and land fielding capabilities. Our only chance of survival is to push the battlefield to foreign ground - we cannot fight in our own land, everything will be destroyed. There wont be a home to return to.
We help Malaysia, we'll fight a long war of attrition with land and population heavy Indonesia. We help Indonesia, we become the frontline for the crossfire. Engage, we die.
If our diplomatic missions fail, we can all die fighting melayus or we can all migrate to Australia. -
Originally posted by Rephidim:
I doubt your optimism in Singapore's security is justified because we have the most numerous and most advanced armed forces in SE Asia...Our battle inexperienced Armed Forces and war exercises are wayang, for deterrence.
And our neighbours have war-level conflicts/battle experience with which army?Commandos can run very far, NDU can tahan extreme cold, SCDF can prepare equipment very fast... KUMPUI? War is fought on experience and spontaneous reaction based on familarity.
Are you suggesting we send our NS men to Iraq? They will get familiar really fast too. Those who come back in one piece and alive anyway. Would you rather have trained troops or not?Singapore is 30x20km. Malaysia and Indonesia do not have to engage us directly to finish us off. Espionage, long range projectiles, shells, stealth missions are enough to put our urban scape into such chaos we'll be paralysed from inside out.
While we sit there and let them do it. Oh wait we open our doors wide and show them where to go too. Can they do that without declaring war? Hmmm...something to consider. These will be "acts of war".And with regard to our lots of "friends" around the world... I almost laugh when I saw this. I hope they come fast enough to bury our corpses before they decompose. Singapore can only fight a SEVEN day war with our ammunition and land fielding capabilities. Our only chance of survival is to push the battlefield to foreign ground - we cannot fight in our own land, everything will be destroyed. There wont be a home to return to.
We can fight a seven day war ....in the past. Are you so sure that we can only last for 7 days now? So...what do you suggest? Hand over your Pink IC now....oh wait i know you dont want to serve ICT....woohoo!We help Malaysia, we'll fight a long war of attrition with land and population heavy Indonesia. We help Indonesia, we become the frontline for the crossfire. Engage, we die.
So what's your opinion on this? And you mean to tell me only we will die? Our aggressors have unlimited troops and ammo and their are in god-mode?If our diplomatic missions fail, we can all die fighting melayus or we can all migrate to Australia.
*sigh* You just joined the coquitlam/shutterbug train now... -
Just a note to you guys who read this forum.
I know when we talk about weapons of destruction, it stirs up some deep feelings within us all.
Here's what i have to say regarding my stance.
I'm still young and have a loooong way to serve for ICT. I ord already and am in armour. It's lucky perhaps as i do have interest in this vocation.
My views on our Military. We are currently the most....active...force in the region. At the same time, we are also the smallest and the one who will lose out the most should we enter any conflict.
I would go readily if the button is pushed. I dont have any other home to sail/fly away. I wont do it even if i have that option. I want to protect those who are here AND fight along with those others who are putting themselves before whom they are protecting.
No i'm not a war-monger. I have interest in the stability of our region as it heavily affects our economic viability on a global scale(and all our jobs too)
Why i keep track of regional acquisitions; It's good to know what others have so you know in the best case : what you have to back you up and in the the worst case: what you are going against.
I have no illusion that we will win any conflict we step into neither will we not have loss of lives nor loss of property.
Depending on the ability of our commanders from top to direct superiors, most, some or few of us from return from such an outcome.
Depending how well we can coordinate our forces of different capabilities and how well we make use of the infomation and technology we have in our hands, we can save several,some, alot of innocent lives or none at all.
I'm not interested in bragging rights of what we have vs what other's have..like a pissing contest.
Yeah i know i go off topic. So sorry for those folks who arent interested.
Those with comments regarding this post of mine...please PM me..i dont want to pull this off topic further. -
that was an off track. pls lah you are not on therapy.Originally posted by CM06:Just a note to you guys who read this forum.
I know when we talk about weapons of destruction, it stirs up some deep feelings within us all.
Here's what i have to say regarding my stance.
I'm still young and have a loooong way to serve for ICT. I ord already and am in armour. It's lucky perhaps as i do have interest in this vocation.
My views on our Military. We are currently the most....active...force in the region. At the same time, we are also the smallest and the one who will lose out the most should we enter any conflict.
I would go readily if the button is pushed. I dont have any other home to sail/fly away. I wont do it even if i have that option. I want to protect those who are here AND fight along with those others who are putting themselves before whom they are protecting.
No i'm not a war-monger. I have interest in the stability of our region as it heavily affects our economic viability on a global scale(and all our jobs too)
Why i keep track of regional acquisitions; It's good to know what others have so you know in the best case : what you have to back you up and in the the worst case: what you are going against.
I have no illusion that we will win any conflict we step into neither will we not have loss of lives nor loss of property.
Depending on the ability of our commanders from top to direct superiors, most, some or few of us from return from such an outcome.
Depending how well we can coordinate our forces of different capabilities and how well we make use of the infomation and technology we have in our hands, we can save several,some, alot of innocent lives or none at all.
I'm not interested in bragging rights of what we have vs what other's have..like a pissing contest.
Yeah i know i go off topic. So sorry for those folks who arent interested.
Those with comments regarding this post of mine...please PM me..i dont want to pull this off topic further.
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Nice pessimistic view...Originally posted by Rephidim:I doubt your optimism in Singapore's security is justified because we have the most numerous and most advanced armed forces in SE Asia...Our battle inexperienced Armed Forces and war exercises are wayang, for deterrence.
Commandos can run very far, NDU can tahan extreme cold, SCDF can prepare equipment very fast... KUMPUI? War is fought on experience and spontaneous reaction based on familarity.
Singapore is 30x20km. Malaysia and Indonesia do not have to engage us directly to finish us off. Espionage, long range projectiles, shells, stealth missions are enough to put our urban scape into such chaos we'll be paralysed from inside out.
And with regard to our lots of "friends" around the world... I almost laugh when I saw this. I hope they come fast enough to bury our corpses before they decompose. Singapore can only fight a SEVEN day war with our ammunition and land fielding capabilities. Our only chance of survival is to push the battlefield to foreign ground - we cannot fight in our own land, everything will be destroyed. There wont be a home to return to.
We help Malaysia, we'll fight a long war of attrition with land and population heavy Indonesia. We help Indonesia, we become the frontline for the crossfire. Engage, we die.
If our diplomatic missions fail, we can all die fighting melayus or we can all migrate to Australia.
If you've emphasized on our Paper Generals or economic fortitude to withstand 300k serviceman activated for war, I might actually have given u credit for ur negative view.
Yes, the SAF Wayangs. I fully agree. But which country doesn't wayang their armed forces in exercises. Everytime a soldier goes back for ICT to wayang their range, and hopefully earn $200 for their marksman badge, their skills improve through their wayang-ing. Every time the gunners live fire or goes through the sequence of live firing their 155s, their speed and response improves from their wayang. Maybe all they want to hear is "Exercise Cut." So be it.
But in a war, that soldier with that marksman badge will be engaging the enemy with his Sar-21, and there will be REAL 5.56mm rounds flying towards the enemy's direction with accuracy. Like it or not, that bullet is gonna hurt when it lands on someone.
True, SAF does lack combat experience. We don't have any war veterans. But hey, check out the veteran US Army/ Marines! Whats their latest body count? People die in war, veteran or green horns. An "Elite" (from your Command and Conquer point of view) is gonna die when an IED goes off under his Hummer. Or when a 155mm shell saturates the area. Oh wait.. i forgot in Command and Conquer, where Long range missiles and Stealth bombers can level a base, the "Elites" can regenerate health. (Oh wait, or did they take less damage when a nuke lands on them?)
Strange, haven't heard of any US Army veteran coming back from the dead yet....
But hey, even though they are dying out in Iraq, those men at least have the balls to take the fight to the enemy (most of them fanatical and VETERAN mujahideen fighters) in Iraq. They got the balls to bring themselves, their technology over, to ensure the battle is fought OUTSIDE US soil. That the IEDs are going off in Iraq, and not in Washington DC.
So what does that tell us? Veterancy is bullshit when you are not in don't have "God Mode" or Impulse 101. What you really need to do to protect your homeland is the BALLS to take the fight to the enemy, and the SKILL to do so.
SAF 7 Core Values
Loyalty To Country
Leadership
Discipline
Fighting Spirit
Professionalism
Ethics
Care For Soldiers
I think they made a mistake: they left out Veterancy and Experience. We are doomed!
Eh, from what I see, we have the fighting spirit, the professionalism, we should be able to take the fight to the enemy BEFORE they get to level our precious HDB and Suntec Fountain of wealth!
So at the end of this long bullsh!t, the question is just, Do you have the balls to fight, and do you know your job in the fight? -
clap clap...excellent summary of the post. Ideal for coquitlam and the like....Originally posted by Shotgun:So at the end of this long bullsh!t, the question is just, Do you have the balls to fight, and do you know your job in the fight? -
Veterancy and Experience
a veteran usually (if their 9 live were not spent) will be pilled out from the war and transfered home to trained or prepare the new recruits on how to sct properly or react properly in real war.
seldom, these veteran experience were so valuable, SOP were changed accordingly to what their experience.
that is in the low level. Veteran officer with good leadership skills usually have a better line towards a higher rank promotion. These officers have better grasp in tactic and millitary affair because of their experience, most either step up tw a higher rank or sometimes become defence atache at embassy and wherever else.
battle and war experience are always recorded so that officers and alike can study and discuss it for reference.
so if an army have big numbers of inexperience (war or conflict) officers and soldier will have some problem when war came knocking in.
but experience were not necessarily learned by participating the war it self. An allied friendly army can transfer its experience in war to its allied. For example the israeli transfer its urban fighting experience to SAF, which makes SAF better in urban fighting.
so like Malaysia which involve in a few conflict under the UN banner change their doctrin few times so that they have a better operational efficiency.
the best example are their Kor Artillery Di Raja, by learning the serbs tactic of scoot and shoot under the cover of foliage they change their doctrin and retrain their personel on it.
or the sri lankan who changed their deploment tactic so that every offensive will have a quick impact against enemy entrenched position. It is better to learn from experience ( and most of the time mistake and blunders) than to do it by theory and asume all will be ok. -
the bloke that will face the full brunts of the 4 million army of red and white... -
Fully agreed. But our friend here wasn't referring to that kinda experience. That he called "wayang."Originally posted by tankfanatic:a veteran usually (if their 9 live were not spent) will be pilled out from the war and transfered home to trained or prepare the new recruits on how to sct properly or react properly in real war.
seldom, these veteran experience were so valuable, SOP were changed accordingly to what their experience.
that is in the low level. Veteran officer with good leadership skills usually have a better line towards a higher rank promotion. These officers have better grasp in tactic and millitary affair because of their experience, most either step up tw a higher rank or sometimes become defence atache at embassy and wherever else.
battle and war experience are always recorded so that officers and alike can study and discuss it for reference.
so if an army have big numbers of inexperience (war or conflict) officers and soldier will have some problem when war came knocking in.
[u]but experience were not necessarily learned by participating the war it self. An allied friendly army can transfer its experience in war to its allied. For example the israeli transfer its urban fighting experience to SAF, which makes SAF better in urban fighting.[\u]
so like Malaysia which involve in a few conflict under the UN banner change their doctrin few times so that they have a better operational efficiency.
the best example are their Kor Artillery Di Raja, by learning the serbs tactic of scoot and shoot under the cover of foliage they change their doctrin and retrain their personel on it.
or the sri lankan who changed their deploment tactic so that every offensive will have a quick impact against enemy entrenched position. It is better to learn from experience ( and most of the time mistake and blunders) than to do it by theory and asume all will be ok.
His experience perhaps is closer defined by a soldier who killed 3 orcs, and got 300exp for his bravery and story to tell at the Shimmering Sword Tavern.
Sure these kinda folks are nice to have when training recruits. On how bullets used to whiz over their heads but still had to carry out their fire movement bravely. And of course, how they made it back in one piece and not in a bodybag.
However, these folks were also green once. They too learned to have fighting spirit and professionalism in the face of their adversaries, and thats why they survived. So thats what we should aim to imbue, and hopefully enough of them will walk out of any war we get into, as veterans. We have to start SOMEWHERE.
Somehow, I suspect that the SAF has a pretty good source of doctrine updates. No doubt acquired from "wayangs" with other armed forces. We couldn't have possibly developed SPH doctrines on our own when the Primus first came on. I'm sure we had good references, and we adopted them, modified them to work here. The good thing about the age of computers is that we don't need to be under live fire to see what works and what doesn't. Simulations reveal key logistical and tactical flaws for us to re-think our approaches.
Some factors that the electronic exercises don't take into account. The human factor for example. While the computer maybe able to simulate proficiency, it might not be easy to simulate testicular fortitude (i love these 2 words) to fight.
So, we may not have war veterans to tell us the harshness and the feeling of coming under fire. We lack the emotional training for that. But we've also established that skills and doctrines are not acquire from just experience alone, but also with friendly and professional relations with foreign militarys.
If "veterancy" were the essentials of an army, then they would probably have never gotten on the right foot in any battle. Fighting Spirit and Professionalism is what we need to get ourselves to start in the right direction. And if our Kiasuism can make its way into the the Oxford English Dictionary, I have confidence that the SAF will make its mark in battle should that day come. Thats because we are starting on the right foot. -
testicular fortitude
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We may not use air but our subs instead. Indonesia doesn't have much capability in the submarine area as compared to M'sia and SG.Originally posted by Shotgun:Don't take the 8000km too seriously... it really depends on the flight profile and load out. =)
Anyways, the reasonable explanation for the Indonesia's sizable sea-lift assets is that they are an archipelago nation after all. So we shouldn't assume that their sea-lift assets are non-functional.
However, they are also vulnerable to maritime strikes from RMAF F/A-18Ds as well. I discounted the MiG-29Ns since they've already been sent to the freezer. If Singapore was to find the sea-lift assets to be of sufficient threat to our own security, I think we would not sit back idly too. Unfortunately, I could not find a single reference to our F-16Ds being Harpoon capable to carry out a maritime strike. -
oh i forgot to add...sometimes veteran soldier goes to hollywood...military consultant...if you know whgat i mean
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firstly im a malaysian.......secondly im not a military expert.........but i would like to play to tripwire scenario that TNI attacking the eastern state of malaysia.....wouldnt large mobilization like that will be detected.....and it will also put my country on alert......logically.......rite? anyway.....according to tripwire that MAF is useless......say we didnt detect the mobilization.....can TNI actually armed 4million soldiers? or izit the 4 million indo just want free ferry ticket to come to malaysia to work?
but my personel view......if indo and malaysia trade blows without any allies or supports......as a defensive forces......i believe we malaysian can manage ourselvs very well.........
but......may god put us faraway from the scenario.... -
whether MAF could detect such a massive redeployment by TNI is up to question, but... lets assume they can... how would MAF react?Originally posted by SureRock:firstly im a malaysian.......secondly im not a military expert.........but i would like to play to tripwire scenario that TNI attacking the eastern state of malaysia.....wouldnt large mobilization like that will be detected.....and it will also put my country on alert......logically.......rite? anyway.....according to tripwire that MAF is useless......say we didnt detect the mobilization.....can TNI actually armed 4million soldiers? or izit the 4 million indo just want free ferry ticket to come to malaysia to work?
but my personel view......if indo and malaysia trade blows without any allies or supports......as a defensive forces......i believe we malaysian can manage ourselvs very well.........
but......may god put us faraway from the scenario....
are you gonna pre-emptive strike deep into indonesia to prevent indonesia from building up its forces... do you even have the neccessary assets to conduct such a move?
in short... you cant stop TNI deployment prior to a war within its own territory..... unless you wish to justify indonesia's war against malaysia.
at the same time.. you lack the forces to handle a TNI deployment along your borders and coastlines...
there is no need for 4 million TNI troops... just afew hundred thoudsand would be more then sufficient.... though additional forces could be valueable in exploiting opportunity or to remedy pitfalls... but i doubt you really need millions of soldiers.
lets do this step by step:
TNI starts to redeploy to kalimantan... lets say 250,000 soldier (bloody massive overkill considering the number of MAF troop in east malaysia)
simultaneously... TNI moves 100,000 soldiers to sumatra. (obviously to pin MAF forces in peninsula down.)
given that both sides dont have strong air power.... the eastern front would mostly be a land warfare deal...
as for RMAF, you need not consider its effect on the war.. since they are too few in number to be of any practical use... especially if you divide it by 3 between ops, maintainance and standby... then divide it further by 3 with 2/3 for peninsula malaysia and remaing 1/3 for east malaysia.
even if we discount mahatir statement about the useless hornet in RMAF inventory due to lack of source code.....
a simple example... 8 RMAF hornet... divide in by 3 you get about 2.5, divide in by another 3... you get near zero availability for east malaysia.
and while fighters of modern day is capable of multi-role... they cannot do more then 1 role as effectively, simply because they cannot be at two places at the same time, a hornet on CAS cannot be on MS (maritime strike) at the same time.
the turnaround time as well as pilot fatigue also eats heavily into the availability of the machine to support front line forces.
please tell us... how you gonna defend yourself.
oh... if really one on one.. MAF vs TNI... TNI at least makes alot of their military weapons... i am sure... MAF would almost gauranteed to run out of war material before TNI does...