Singapore must help malaysia if indonesia attacks
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We can decapitate enemy C3. But we cannot hold ground.Originally posted by Rephidim:I believe the most probable reaction Singapore will have is to declare Code Red against both sides and refuse to take a stand.
We'll probably defend against both Indo and Malaysia and wait for the peacekeepers to come in.
Very interesting scenario, take either side we will also die.
If war breaks, Singapore will be the battlefield in the middle. Each side will try to take Singapore as a staging ground. I think both sides will shell us until theres nothing left in Singapore Island and then move to confront each other.
Singapore would probably not know who's the enemy until we're struck first.
But then again, its very improbable the war will happen. -
it seems pretty straight forward the way i see.
if we dont help the malaysians, sgp will be the next easy target once indons occupied malaysia. we need the existance of both malaysian and indonesian to keep all asean forces in check.
i supposed the reason we are not afraid of indons now is becos they lack the amphibian capabilities to launch any large scale attack on us.
i rather trust the malaysians then the indonesian savages!
so we should help the malaysians and then make Riau ours!!! -
What makes you think any country is better than the other? I really don't see any difference.Originally posted by FG42:it seems pretty straight forward the way i see.
if we dont help the malaysians, sgp will be the next easy target once indons occupied malaysia. we need the existance of both malaysian and indonesian to keep all asean forces in check.
i supposed the reason we are not afraid of indons now is becos they lack the amphibian capabilities to launch any large scale attack on us.
i rather trust the malaysians then the indonesian savages!
so we should help the malaysians and then make Riau ours!!! -
Just let them fight and sit back and enjoy the news.
But I will put money down - there will be no fight. Suharto is gone, Mahatir is gone. Now both sides are ruled by moderate personalities. -
leave it to the superpowers to ensure SLOC security... its in their interest to do so... china has a naval base in burma, india in nicobar islands and the US in de garcia.Originally posted by Shotgun:Honestly, who here believes that the SAF will not have a say to the RMN and TNI-Navy to skirmish in our regional waters?
We will be dragged in, and only to preserve our own national interest. Not Indonesia's, not Malaysia's. So like i said before, our best bet is to step between them, help them to negotiate a solution to prevent ANY escalation to war. They can screw each other in the Jungles of Sarawak for all we care, just don't drag it into the waters.
either one of the above 3 can kick both indonesia and malaysian navy to the bottom of the sea if they threaten the free passage of the commerical shippings.
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dont be stupid... even the malaysians and indonesians have alot more of sensibility to realize the lunacy of starting a second front through singapore when they already have their hands full over in the east malaysia.Originally posted by Rephidim:I believe the most probable reaction Singapore will have is to declare Code Red against both sides and refuse to take a stand.
We'll probably defend against both Indo and Malaysia and wait for the peacekeepers to come in.
Very interesting scenario, take either side we will also die.
If war breaks, Singapore will be the battlefield in the middle. Each side will try to take Singapore as a staging ground. I think both sides will shell us until theres nothing left in Singapore Island and then move to confront each other.
Singapore would probably not know who's the enemy until we're struck first.
But then again, its very improbable the war will happen.
singapore's military strength is easily 3 to 5 times that of MAF... and in terms of air and naval power... nobody in this region currently rivals us...
not to mention we got lots of friends around the world who has alot of vested interest in ensuring our security.
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given the military and diplomactic strength of signapore... its an option we definitely have.. and its an option that we will definitely exercise as long as the war dont spread to peninsula malaysia...Originally posted by nanren4ever:If Indonesia and Malaysia really goes to war, we should just remain netural.
The thing is, it won't benefit us at all should we side with any country.
Other Muslim countries will view Singapore with even more hatred and suspicion, thinking that a Chinese-majority country like us is the instigator of their Muslim brothers fighting and killing each other, even though we may not have started the war.
Its a lose-lose situation for us no matter what.
So, just do what we do best.
Write a statement and Condemn whichever country started the war first.
otherwise... a quick joint military offensive with thailand to bring "peace" to the region by crushing MAF with TNI blessing is highly preferred by all sides.. except malaysian leaders of course.
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we can hold ground...Originally posted by LazerLordz:We can decapitate enemy C3. But we cannot hold ground.
its just a question of size, level of resistance and time... the bigger the land size and resistance.. the shorter the time...
its the same for any armed forces around the world...
one way to increase the time.. is to reduce the resistance level and the size that needs to be hold...
when occupying a foreign land.. you dont have to occupy every inch of territory... just the strategic access to water, food, transport, energy and medicine. -
and you think the indonesians gonna just roll over and play dead??Originally posted by FG42:it seems pretty straight forward the way i see.
if we dont help the malaysians, sgp will be the next easy target once indons occupied malaysia. we need the existance of both malaysian and indonesian to keep all asean forces in check.
i supposed the reason we are not afraid of indons now is becos they lack the amphibian capabilities to launch any large scale attack on us.
i rather trust the malaysians then the indonesian savages!
so we should help the malaysians and then make Riau ours!!!
i will rather trust OSAMA then either neighbour of ours... -
its just a question of time....Originally posted by chino65:Just let them fight and sit back and enjoy the news.
But I will put money down - there will be no fight. Suharto is gone, Mahatir is gone. Now both sides are ruled by moderate personalities.
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lol MAF soldiern sucks? ... their number of low level and high level exercise... shows different stats. MAF trained their soldier all year long... very well equip...and arranged in a very thoughtfull way. Their army always in the defensive mode because it is their policy to be defensive.
FPDA IS NOT A NonCOMMITAL pact! It is real..and Indonesia were very agitated about this. And for the love of god FPDA is for the protection of the entire malaysia inclusive EM! the quoter that you take Mr Trip wire is not from FPDA agreement but from a news excerpt. -
i am sure you have every confidence in MAF in terms of equipment and trainning...Originally posted by tankfanatic:lol MAF soldiern sucks? ... their number of low level and high level exercise... shows different stats. MAF trained their soldier all year long... very well equip...and arranged in a very thoughtfull way. Their army always in the defensive mode because it is their policy to be defensive.
FPDA IS NOT A NonCOMMITAL pact! It is real..and Indonesia were very agitated about this. And for the love of god FPDA is for the protection of the entire malaysia inclusive EM! the quoter that you take Mr Trip wire is not from FPDA agreement but from a news excerpt.
however.. the position here is that MAF given its geographical restriction, troop deployment and equipment such as troop lift capacities....
its my opinion that MAF dont stand a chance against TNI especially in east malaysia.
secondly....
FPDA is NON COMMITAL... the treaty is open for reading at the singapore national library as well as toa payoh library (which i last read years ago)
at toa payoh library... under the reference section.. which would be the third floor... while at the national library.. it can be found at the reference section on the seventh floor.
the indonesian aggitation is obvious as the FPDA while non-commital does provide the international forum to politicise any TNI MAF conflict..
and let me reiterate... FPDA do not include east malaysia... you are welcome to read the document at the singapore national library... and check it out yourself.
even though the link i provided might be a news excerpt... surely it does not escape your notice.. why the emphasize on the East malaysia exclusion?? -
this book would be a good start.
Title Peratoran pertahanan lima negara--pertukaran nota°2' dan lampiran°2' sechara bilateral = Five-power defence arrangements--bilateral exchanges of notes and annexes.
RSEA 01-01-99 English 341.0265 MAL -
According to the news, both countries are already settled down to peaceful negotiations.
It'll cost more to fight a war than the oil itself.
But of course, both sides must wayang a bit before they can proceed to the negotiation table so as to sit down from a position of "strength".
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But for the sake of "what if" scenario...
While what some people said about TNI and MAF are true, I would actually say that both sides will be very well matched.
THis is because I assume they will "localise" the conflict at first and fight just at the disputed area.
This means both sides will have to despatch expeditionary forces. And they will each send a limited amount of their manpower and hardware while keeping the rest for defence.
Attacks on actual territory like mainland East Malaysia would be useful diversions to stretch MAF's resources. But again I stress this will not happen at first as it will start as a "limited" war.
Reference Falklands. England did not touch mainland Argentina itself or the SLOC around it though it was contemplated. The fighting was kept to the islands itself. To attack Argentina would motivate the entire Argentinian population which was what Argentina needed and England cleverly avoided.
So like I said, LET THEM FIGHT and the news at 9 would be damn interesting. -
however.. the position here is that MAF given its geographical restriction, troop deployment and equipment such as troop lift capacities....
TNI is in an even worst condition in terms of troop dep and troop lift...
try the so called big acheh deployment to destroy the GAM...what a disaster that was...its my opinion that MAF dont stand a chance against TNI especially in east malaysia.
base on what? -
How on earth the TNI are going to get their assets onto mainland Malaysia, and supply them to fight a war in the first place is a question left to be answered.
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before FPDA there were this AMDA...
Anglo-Malayan Defence Agreement (AMDA) provided a security umbrella for independent Malaya. AMDA (unlike the future FPDA), was a bilateral defence agreement. When Malaysia was formally created in 1963 (without Brunei's inclusion), AMDA - renamed the Anglo-Malaysian Defence Agreement -continued to provide some measure of security to the new federation. Just as important, ANZUK forces were still based in Butterworth and Singapore. These forces helped Malaysia resist Indonesia's policy of "Confrontation" which included military action or terrorist activities in Johor, Singapore, and Sarawak.
then the FPDA..The Five Power Defence Arrangements (FPDA) were agreed in 1971 and committed Australia, Malaysia, New Zealand, Singapore and UK to consult in the event of an attack on Singapore or Malaysia.
Australian Treaty Series 1971 No 21
EXCHANGE OF NOTES CONSTITUTING AN AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENT OF AUSTRALIA AND THE GOVERNMENT OF MALAYSIA ON ASSISTANCE REGARDING EXTERNAL DEFENCE
I have the honour to refer to the Exchange of Letters between the Government of Australia and the Government of the Federation of Malaya on 24 March and 21 April 1959, associating Australia with the Agreement on External Defence and Mutual Assistance between the Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the Government of the Federation of Malaya; to the Exchange of Letters between the Government of Australia and the Government of Malaysia on 17 and 18 September 1963, extending Australia's association with the Defence Agreement to all the territories of Malyasia; and to the Communique issued by representatives of the Governments of Australia, Malaysia, New Zealand, Singapore and the United Kingdom at the conclusion of the Ministerial Meeting in London on 16 April 1971, to consider matters of common interest to all five Governments relating to the external defence of Malaysia and Singapore.Australian Treaty Series 1971 No 21
EXCHANGE OF NOTES CONSTITUTING AN AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENT OF AUSTRALIA AND THE GOVERNMENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF SINGAPORE REGARDING EXTERNAL DEFENCE
I have the honour to refer to the communique issued by representatives of the Governments of Australia, Malaysia, New Zealand, Singapore and the United Kingdom at the conclusion of the Ministerial meeting in London on 16 April 1971 to consider matters of common interest to all five Governments relating to the defence of Malaysia and Singapore. In furtherance of the intentions expressed in that communique I have the honour to propose that the following arrangements shall apply between the Government of Australia and the Government of Singapore as from 1 November 1971. -
by sampan lor......... MAF fighter will disable all TNI-AU and TNI-AL in the first place when war break-out........Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:How on earth the TNI are going to get their assets onto mainland Malaysia, and supply them to fight a war in the first place is a question left to be answered. -
there also this question of bringing tanks in east malaysia.... you see...if we thought that the peninsular were full of hills and vegetation..but east malaysia are one big mother of rainforest!
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this much we all know... repeated like a broken recorder...Originally posted by tankfanatic:before FPDA there were this AMDA... Australian Treaty Series 1971 No 21
its just an exchange of comminuque... its not the signed agreements itself... such exchange is understandable given that the federation of malaysia which including singapore and east malaysia was formed on .16th of september 1963... and AMDA is still in effect until FPDA comes into force in 1971.
EXCHANGE OF NOTES CONSTITUTING AN AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENT OF AUSTRALIA AND THE GOVERNMENT OF MALAYSIA ON ASSISTANCE REGARDING EXTERNAL DEFENCE
I have the honour to refer to the Exchange of Letters between the Government of Australia and the Government of the Federation of Malaya on 24 March and 21 April 1959, associating Australia with the Agreement on External Defence and Mutual Assistance between the Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the Government of the Federation of Malaya; to. the Exchange of Letters between the Government of Australia and the Government of Malaysia on 17 and 18 September 1963, extending Australia's association with the Defence Agreement to all the territories of Malyasia; and to the Communique issued by representatives of the Governments of Australia, Malaysia, New Zealand, Singapore and the United Kingdom at the conclusion of the Ministerial Meeting in London on 16 April 1971, to consider matters of common interest to all five Governments relating to the external defence of Malaysia and Singapore.
however... such communique made no promise by australia or any powers to come to the defence of all territories of malaysia...
after 8 years of negotiation... i am sorry to inform you... east malaysia was eventually dropped from the FPDA.
here is a short excerpt from singapore MINDEF journal... and i quote:The very fact of its flexible arrangement means that any member who has become "less willing" can leave the FPDA, thus weakening both the indivisible defence of. peninsular Malaysia and Singapore element and the so-called psychological deterrence element. Conceivably, a more assertive Indonesia may in future raise questions about the FPDA's relevance.
http://www.mindef.gov.sg/safti/pointer/back/journals/2000/Vol26_4/7.htm
you should provide us with a link to your statements... if you please.. -
in ww2... peninsula malaysia forest is probably just as dense as east malaysia today... that didnt stop the japs from using their tanks to good effect....Originally posted by tankfanatic:there also this question of bringing tanks in east malaysia.... you see...if we thought that the peninsular were full of hills and vegetation..but east malaysia are one big mother of rainforest!
just because east malaysia is mainly forest... it does not mean tanks cannot be used in east malaysia... dont east malaysia have cars? and trucks?? -
that is on the assumption singapore is gonna sit there and watch indonesia occupy our northern frontier...Originally posted by MyVi:by sampan lor......... MAF fighter will disable all TNI-AU and TNI-AL in the first place when war break-out........
the greater possibility is SAF knocking MAF off the map and try to negotiate with TNI... maybe with a shipload of UMNO leaders for TNI leader's amusement... -
its my believe that the war between TNI and MAF would be limited to east malaysia....Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:How on earth the TNI are going to get their assets onto mainland Malaysia, and supply them to fight a war in the first place is a question left to be answered.
while any assault by TNI against MAF on peninsular malaysia would probably trigger a preemptive SAF strike on MAF to prevent an indonesia encirclement of singapore. -
based on the fact that indonesia navy has as many as 28 landing transport ship, how many landing transport ship does malaysia have... dont bother if you cannot even list 3 ship.Originally posted by tankfanatic:base on what?
1. 501 KRI Teluk Langsa
2. 502 KRI Teluk Bayur
3. 503 KRI Teluk Amboina
4. 504 KRI Teluk Kau
5. 508 KRI Teluk Tomini
6. 509 KRI Teluk Ratai
7. 510 KRI Teluk Saleh
8. 511 KRI Teluk Bone
9. 512 KRI Teluk Semangka
10. 513 KRI Teluk Penyu
11. 514 KRI Teluk Mandar
12. 515 KRI Teluk Sampit
13. 516 KRI Teluk Banten
14. 517 KRI Teluk Ende
15. 531 KRI Teluk Gilimanuk
16. 532 KRI Teluk Celukan Bawang
17. 533 KRI Teluk Cendrawasih
18. 534 KRI Teluk Berau
19. 535 KRI Teluk Peleng
20. 536 KRI Teluk Sibolga
21. 537 KRI Teluk Manado
22. 538 KRI Teluk Hading
23. 539 KRI Teluk Parigi
24. 540 KRI Teluk Lampung
25. 541 KRI Teluk Jakarta
26. 542 KRI Teluk Sangkulirang
27. 543 KRI Teluk Cirebon
28. 544 KRI Teluk Sabang -
I cant resist but say:
I doubt even 70% of that list of transports are actually in ready-to move condition.
I doubt more than 20% of them are at the same port and crewed/manned.
Without air defense measures and sufficient naval deterrence, i doubt any of them would make it to the opposite shore in one piece.
Naturally if you congregate more than 10 of those things together with a few battalion of troops/vehicles at the same port, we will push button once we see it on radar/satellite.
It's a guess on my part of course.